Brainstorm: bringing LL back to the forums

Lol....cute.

I have AR'd post #95 - in which my entire post from another forums was posted here without my permission - as in violation of U.S. copyright law, as found here:

wwww.copyright.gov/

The subsection "Who Can Claim Copyright?" is covered here:

wwww.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wccc

(Extra w added so that this post won't scroll.)

The subsections, "How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?", "Is it legal to download works from peer-to-peer networkds and if not, what is the penalty for doing so?", and "Could I be sued for using somebody else's work? How about quotes or samples?" can be found here:

wwww.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html

I asked the poster to remove the material, and he refused.

I'm going to AR the post today for being an invasion of another resident's privacy as well as in copyright violation.

coco

Well, I think we can be pretty certain this mud-slinging and name-calling is NOT the way to get the Lindens involved in the forums. It's more likely to get the forums closed down.
Oh well, it's the weekend. Time for a G&T.

I am sorry, but where is the "invasion of your privacy"? You posted something openly on another forum. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy.

Reguardless, what someone says on a 3rd party forum about how this forum is run shouldn't be brought up here.

As we have been discussing there is a potential Forums/In-game ban link

AND

That copy and pasted information read by a Linden ever reviewing Coco being AR'd would definitely influence how they chose to proceed.

Thanks, folks. I've learned some things in this thread, and bizarrely, I'm actually encouraged because I have some ideas on how to proceed, thanks to you.

Proceed, that is, toward my goal, which is to facilitate getting the forum on a more stable footing, so that more residents can be welcomed here for help and fun. This entails at least getting the moderation into a more acceptable shape, and getting BBCode re-enabled. My focus right now is on the former. It may not be possible to do anything at all, but you never know til you try.

Anyone who feels like spending a little time on this themselves, perhaps in something that could be considered a (small) working group, send me an IM or PM. Thanks.

I'm a project/program/SW manager RL, with extensive experience in startups, so am not entirely unsuited to facilitating this. I am also not interested in being a resmod myself, so can claim that degree of impartiality

(By the way, apologies to those who've had their buttons pushed by some of the convo here ... some topics will just do that.)

As perhaps you can see, I'd be just as happy to see this thread fade away now. Thanks again.

The propriety of posting what was said elsewhere here is not my issue. My only issue is the ludicrous idea of an expectation of privacy when you post something openly on the Internet. Any curious Linden could have gone there and read the exact same thing and formed their opinion of her. It's not like she posted that on a password protected blog.

I agree. While reposting the quote is bad form, in my opinion, I don't see any legal issue. But I do think it should be taken down. If it were a link then I'd see no issue.

He should have left a link only.


I doubt the Linden would take the time to figure out the material quoted was from a 3rd party forum, and instead act as if it were a quote from this one.

MY confidence in the Lindens being fair and impartial is pretty low.


Yeah, you can quote me on that.

Yes but I think the point is that in an abuse context, Linden employees should only be reading her post history on *this* forum, if they are going to use that information to review things like past behaviour before determining punishment. That post could now easily be mistaken for having been posted here by the original author, which isn't the case at all.

Have you been contacted for your views too?

That is a propriety issue, not a legal issue. I said my only issue is the legal one - that of an expectation of privacy, which she should not reasonably have. I agree that quoting that post here in its entirety was wrong, but she cannot claim to have a reasonable expectation of privacy for something she posted in an open forum elsewhere.

Cristalle is correct - it is considered "rude" but not in violation of copyright law. Bottom line: don't put anything in writing that you aren't willing to own if it shows up somewhere else - including email.

By "invasion of privacy," I refer to one resident taking it upon himself to port another post in its entirety from another forums, thus abrogating for himself a resident's private choice of what he posts where. And I bring that up in regards to LL and their own TOS.

(A link would have been okay.)

It is taking what a person says or does in one context, with a smaller audience, or with their friends, and deciding to post it (or pictures of it) on the LL forums for all to see or read, without the permission of the individual.

But that point is minor compared to the legal issue of copyright law violation, which is clear in this instance. What I post is not in the public domain.

coco

I'm a professional writer, and have worked for magazines, and I can assure you that it is indeed a legal issue.

If you read the government links I posted, you will see that it is, and that is only a very cursury review.

Imagine if Anne Coulter (heh) posted an essay on her website, and a rival website decided to publish it in its entirety without her permission. She would win a lawsuit, hands down.

I'm not the type to want to do lawsuits, though. I AR'd it, and I asked Wilhelm to take it down.

coco

P.S. I have no problems "owning it," Isablan. In fact, that is exactly what I'm doing.

I (obviously) have no problems with anyone at all reading what I wrote - on the website where I wrote it and where I intended for it to go.

Two more links on the topic, for those who are interested:

wwww.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

wwww.benedict.com/Digital/Internet/Usenet.aspx

(Again, I have put in an extra "w" to stop the scrolling.)

well at least the subject of the thread has totaly changed to that of copyright which ironically fits better onto this forum....

that being said since people cut and paste posts in their entirety from other blogs, sites etc onto this forum all the time I think people are making a fuss over nothing.

But because people want to scream copyright fine I put the "legally required" info in after asking. Also no single person was ar'd just the thread that's the irony of it all its inside people's heads as usual as they start to spin a web of inuendo.

I originaly left names and links out of that post because I thought to myself who would want to claim they wrote that? and had an instict to keep things as anonymous as possible. However in everyones anger they wanted topull the "copyright" thingy okay fine legally I have done what is required with regards to that.

Now once upon a time everyone went to school and they wrote essays (even me .. cause i had to but I hated it) where you quoted entire parts of books and then at the bottom
ibid blah blah blah

and then at the end listed all the books and pages again blah blah blah (it was boring stuff i remember it well)

now if we want to get even more technical about it the entire post was not quoted only half because it spanned 3 posts not 1 and this was only part 1 so 1/3 of the original post was quoted so yes an exeprt was taken. Because of what was being said and how it was being said and who was saying it. So i decided to bring it in the open.

I dont expect it to remain although it might, but the expectation was that since people were criticizing the rezmod thing and so incensed over it and my comments about things got actualy DRAGGGED into this thread kicking and screaming as someone decided he wanted to carry on this non issue debate over here I followed (see post #17 no one asked me if i minded and yes I did i wanted it to end in the previous thread oh well) and was amazed someone would continue something from another thread and bring it all over here.. but meh lets just say had it not entered this thread I would have ignored this thread entirely and it may not have gone so far.

But since i now had 2 people picking me apart about why i thought strife should just be left alone and i tried very hard to point and illude to the post but not use it I apparantly was being to subtle and cryptic. After trying to explain it and then being accused of actually saying it and having my words up i threw my hands up and decided to post the source of where i thought this was all coming from.

I dont think i'm wrong but that's up to others to decide meanwhile
I had hoped that this thread would just sink into obscurity and it would end but I see people wont let it die.

So there is my other 2 lindens on it. and quite frankly at this point I don't care I said what I said and did what i did in order to make sure ALL sides were shown and not only the side that people wanted to show on this forum. If LL reviews the resmod issue I want them to not have to search the material down so i brought it here. Just like people bring articles and cut and paste them here I did as well.

I wish I could ahve left the name and source off but people were screaming "you stole it and copyright" well okay after asking what I should do I was told the correct thing would be to credit the author and the source just like in school.

Its not copyrighted in that sence it was posted to a 100% public forum and is now all over the internet via google its a part of the internet now and not on a forum that doesn't get googled.

anyhow hopefully strife will be along and ock this thread so it can sink but until then i guess people will just keep up fighting about it ..

*grabs 2k's bucket and bails*

bye

If this thread's many insights into how best to create and operate a 3D virtual world, from a high level abstract viewpoint, right down to details such as what type cables to use in the colo facilities, don't entice the entire Linden staff into participation in the forums, I doubt anything mankind can do could accomplish that goal.

unfortunately people were being from what i can see intentionally dense on the issue as i tried other methods and it wasn't working so the full faced method was the only route left open to me. In fact at one point I was the one accused of being the one to think strife is a control freak at that point it was obvious to me that being subtle was no longer even possible so i took out a 2x4 i saw no alternative.

and as susanne says they are busy trying to find the right wires to use on the server monster right now and trying not to trip over them I doubt they are in any position to even consider moderating these forums. To me it looks like resmods or nothing. Some won't make do with resmods and feel that if we take that approach the forums must shut down. Thats an all or nothing solution which i dont subscribe to. I think this forum can function just fine with resmods if people will stop criticizing the process and just let it happen there may eventualy be reinforcements.

After this forum gets shut down, you can still get your land questions answered. See my signature to find out how or search "Land Answers" in the group tab when you are inworld.

So, in your view: anyone who believes other than you do, and that there is criticism to be made of the current process can lump it, or face getting their third-party posts placed on this forum without their permission?

Personally, I find that a bit of a arrogant position to take, and one that won't allow /any/ positive changes to be made at all.

ETA: It's also very intimidating and bullying.

The legal issue isn't whether or not you have stated who the author is of the material you've appropriated elsewhere and posted on another venue.

The issue is taking someone's post in its entirety from another venue and posting it elsewhere without permission.

I asked you to take down this post, Wilhelm, and asked again on SLU, and will ask again now: Remove the post. Would it kill you? People have had plenty of time to read it now.

If you will remove my post, I will remove the posts I put later in this thread discussing it.

I will even write a new AR report to LL, retracting my AR's of your post, saying that you have removed it of your own accord.

And that would put an end to all of this.

coco

coco

you guys have ar'd the thing like 68760807 times what good would removing it do. Plus I think it needs to stay to add balance to the thing. Yes I"m painfully honest that's me and always has been and you know it. It doesn't make me evil. The moment you posted your post to that forum you stopped owning it. Its not yours if you want it to be yours put it on a website that IS yours but its from a public forum. Its all over the net that post and its a horrible post both in tone and in thought. I think strife deserves an apology for it but that's just me. It is what is driving the rage over the resmod issue and that is why its there.

However you appear not to even really want to communicate with me but i did spend a great deal of time last night ar'ing friends of yours telling me to fuck off ingame and get a life. Its gone overboard.

YOu couldn't even bother to reply to my private im's on this message board buty ou had no problem posting exerpts from them elsewhere and even twisting the words

what you ask and what you are saying in two seperte public forums that WE BOTH CAN SEE do not match.

Removing this after 6078079078 ar's which may or may not be true, threats of legal action no it has to stay because its kind of become a hub. If i remove it then it will reflect badly on me. I had asked you to let it go please let it go its over and I know you wont listen to me so whatever. I can't remove it now you have left a paper trail a mile long.

Sorry.

Well, Wilhelm, I think you need to take a look at some of the links I posted above. (Including the two on this page.) You have no understanding of copyright law.

coco

P.S. You can remove it - simply by removing it.

No, it would reflect /well/ on you if you removed it, considering that it's a gross breach of etiquette to have posted it in the first place, not to mention simply mean to Coco, who has committed no crime against you save for disagreeing.

Delete the post already. Enough is enough.