Brainstorm: bringing LL back to the forums

Removed: It's not worth being stuck in this go-round anymore.

coco

And I think that this is a selfish and ill-advised position. If you look at Strife's performance of late, it has been extremely liberal - look at this stupid thread continuing on and on. Strife isn't into censorship, especially when the post is about Strife. You don't see Strife locking every single thread that goes astray. A lot of the present grousing is just a grudge being harbored against Strife with no basis in current events. Taking away the forums because Strife is in charge would leave a lot of people without a competent source of information, because without the forums, they wouldn't be able to find the other communities where they can get help, or spout their piss and vinegar.

If you are asking more more Linden oversight in the moderation as is, then what really needs to happen is for Linden Review to be automatic for certain types of thread locks or all of them to go to LR. Strife rarely sends anything to LR, but if LR is what you want, maybe that should be the appropriate measure for the situation as is until they get more resident moderators. And the Linden reviewing it would typically have very little to review, since Strife is not some locking-happy nazi.

Excuse me, Wilhelm, I am the OP(author) of this thread and I did PM you, politely, to ask you to remove the post. Indeed, you responded, also politely. Obviously I did not change your mind, but I did want it known that I tried to dissuade you from this self-destructive course. See below. [] indicates where I editted out a couple of sentences about forum moderation in general.

you talked to me lke a a kid you didn't bother to im me and demanded i take it down in its entirety stomped your feet like a two year old and threatened to sue me in one fell swoop. Yeah some contact. Friends normally give friends the benefit of the doubt contact them privately tell them why they want something done and ask politely

like i said from the very first foot stop its been nothing but instults foot stomping and demands.

Yet there is nothing wrong done here other then your say so

swearing at me demanding i do something or else is not what i would call asking its called threatening.

I dont respond well to threats like many others in the world who don't respond well to threats. You didn't im me once not once. You removed me from your friends list you said nothing to me personally. That's not what friends do

now as i said its an exeprt and i am pretty sure if i shortened it even more you would not be happy and still make demands so i doubt i can' actualy do anything to please you on this issue.

I dont think WTF Wilhelm take that down immediately or else blah blah blah to be much of a request i consider it a demand followed by a threat. Followed up by a bunch ofpeople telling me how disgusting i am and then your friends chatting me in world to fuck off and get a life.. nice touch.

This is what i consider a personal issue but yet I get no IM from you asking me like you would ask any stranger i get treated like dirt? Is this how you normally deal with things that you want fixed? if so some diplomacy lessons are in order.

YOu flipped period end of sentance and couldn't even bother to talk to me....

Why don't you go on OVER to SLU, and read the thread there, where I explain my objections in detail.

Then you will know more exactly where I am coming from. Rather than guessing about it here.

coco

It is not going to change my position - getting rid of the forums because we only have one moderator is still an ill-advised and selfish position to take. I may go over there and look but if you step back and look at the practical effect of abolishing the forums, it doesn't change the price of cheese.

Yay, Cristalle! We'll Godwin this goddamn thread, since nothing else will kill it! (Actually, I completely agree with your entire post; I just despise how this otherwise extremely valuable thread has gotten a whole silly sub-plot, hurting most the characters in that subplot--though it's been a pretty ugly scene for the audience, too.)

yeah you pm'ed me about it

i'm not talking about you i'm talking about the person who wrote it who is so incensed. I see nothing wrong with what i posted and as i said the post stands. Your not a moderator your not an author of it your just a person who made a thread on this forum like me. Yes your a nice person but as i see it the request should be coming from the person who wrote the thing she's a big girl. if not her then LL because in all honesty there is nothing wrong with that post.

I can edit it but i wont remove it because certain things need to remain because of what I WAS ACCUSED of but i have this really huge feeling no matter what i do it wont be enough. So at this point i'm waitng for LL to let me know what to do because as far as the rest of it goes the amount of crap i have had to take in the last 24 hours over this stupid post is totally ridiculous. Its nothing personal nikah but i dont take kindly to people calling me all sorts of colourful names, harassing me ingame and sending threats my way. Its not the way to get things done not in the real world and not in SL.

I understand your position, and used to agree with it.

But there is nothing "selfish" about it. I do think that having the forums under the rule of one resident is worse - for ALL of us - than having no forums at all.

It's up to LL to fix that, not me.

coco

why not jus tcopy and past it coco there is a lot of dirt in that thread and a couple of people have asked me why i wont remove it and i pointed them that way and they could see why maybe i might not be so willing to remove it after the garbage in that thread.

I dont respond well to thug tactics. period end of sentance
I dont respond well to threats
I dont respond well to demands
I dont respond well to WTF WILHELM TAKE THAT DOWN NOW OR ELSE stuff

i'm not a two year old

and again if i edited the thread down to the main core i am 99.999999% sure you would demand removal of that too. What the heck does it matter how many sentance of the 3 page post i used I used 1/3'rd its not the entire post its an expert!

it even obeys YOUR rules..

I just popped in at slu for the first time, just to look at this thread. I have to say, if there were ever any doubt about the urgency of keeping these forums alive, a glance at sluniverse will surely make the case.

In theory, if there was absolutely no check on Strife. But these are not Strife's forums - and on occasion, you do see Lindens pop in here. Not frequently, but they do. They are not here enough to get pissed off at every rant, which is probably a good thing.

Listen, I agree that there should be more resmods. But I do not agree with the histrionics that have gone on concerning Strife in particular, which is the main reason why you changed your position from mine to what it is now. I do not believe that Strife is all-powerful, and while Strife certainly has the respect of LL (which is aptly earned, IMO), it is not a blank check to abuse other residents, and I have not seen evidence of any such abuse. What I have seen is people getting Strife to unlock thread (Morwen's goodbye) and to thoroughly explain why he locked a thread (the land market thread).

And I do not think that the qualifications set forth for moderator status have been unreasonable. Strife is an experienced moderator, and it makes sense to not look for noobs and people who write incendiary things just to piss people off. I have no problem with LL taking Strife's recommendations because Strife has earned their respect, and I do believe that Strife takes these responsibilities very seriously, and does not try to abuse the process. You won't agree with the last part of that sentence, and I understand and respect that.

We do need more ResMods, but I agree with Strife that there must be some minimum qualification, and the qualities set forth are not unreasonable.

Hamster gets even sadder...

No, you just use them yourself. You also stomp your feet and dig your heels in worse than my overtired four year old having a tantrum, and for less reason. At least she has an excuse - she's a toddler and she's /four/. And once the initial tantrum is over, she apologises and tries to make amends.

What's /your/ excuse?

People are treating you like you are an infant because you are acting as though you are one. Coco has never done anything to you personally, but you are being a right shit to her, simply because you can.

Well I think this experiment of having no ResMod whatsoever is going quite well, don't you?

Intermission time folks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYfO4o-ccBA

I've vacillated as this has gone on , from thinking that perhaps if LL doesn't want to bother maybe it is time to pull the plug, to where I am now, firmly, that this Forum should go on, even if it is in the current form, with the current moderation in place. I wasn't around in the Golden Era the Ancient Ones harken back to, so I can't compare. But like Collette said, What really is so unfixable here? There has been a lot of passionate debate on the subject from both sides, but there has also been some really small behavior as well, some surprising, on both sides, and not just here. For me, this is the only SL Forum I care about, I won't be going elsewhere.

You are the island in my stream. That is what you are.

:group hug:

LOL, people here are funny.

These forums will be gone when Linden Lab decides they have no more use for them here. They already decided that the forums were not how they would communicate and removed themselves from the forums. They've seen it useful enough to leave one lone moderator.


The writing is on the wall, folks and arguing with each other here about it will only hasten the process if anything.

Then the problem will be solved, won't it?

Message deleted. Tired of going around in circles.

I'm going to try to get back on topic here....sigh, by posting my opinion on the OT:

I would love to see a Linden presence here. I can't imagine why they don't see more value in these forums. (Even with the insanity in this thread) To me referring a noob to the knowledge base is more of a cruel prank than helpful. A small Linden presence here, with dramatic more emphasis on referring people here for problem solving seems to me the best solution they have for helping people. It would also seem to get a lot of people off their backs, that I'm sure they receive lots of silly questions from via IM's or office meetings.

Regarding Strife. I think Strife does an excellent job here given the huge task he has on his hands. He definitely needs more support. All this whining "Boo-hoo-hooo, Strife is just a resident and has too much power" makes me want to vomit. It's immature and nothing but sour grapes and the "It's not fair" mentality. The Lindens have Strife in position, yes he is just a resident and not a Linden, but he has been granted, and retains authority given by them. If I was in charge of the forum, I'd just give Strife a Linden last name without making him an actual employee to shut all of you up.

When I read all the complaints in these forums and the blogs about the Lindens didn't tell us this and the Lindens didn't tell us that, I've come to one very big conclusion: They need to stop being so open about their business operation. It gives people way to much of a feeling of entitlement.



Amen, Sister.



For the love of God, please don't link that video ever again! My ears are bleeding!!!

One can call for the abolition of something without selfish intent or without it being a selfish act. I help far more than I seek help here, and I think it would be to every customer's benefit if the forums were improved in myriad ways. Unfortunately, we've been waiting for change for longer than many posters here have been registered and we are seeing nothing but regression and status quo.

Strife's performance of late could be characterized as lackadasical (given the utter lack of support by LL, I can't fault him that) but it is also arbitrary and incontravertable. That this thread continues is more a testament to it being the weekend than of moderator tolerance. This is now, this is today, that it also happend "yesterday" doesn't mean that people are carrying a grude, it means that the same moderator conduct that was disheartening then remains so now.

Is it possible to have a tree grow more to our liking by pruning it? Indeed. This is what the advocates - myself included - have been asserting. Any connection this position has to Strife or LL is that this is still the "official" forum which seems to be pleasing nobody, not even the ones advocating its continuance. If it were possible to effect change through the system than I'd be trying to lead the charge. That the most involved, interested (and presumably trusted) resmod - Strife - can't even get LL to respond to requests seems to indicate that none of us would fare any better.

I don't think that the implications of the closure of forums.secondlife have been discussed nearly as much as whether or not they should be. Imagine three resident-run forums in competition with each other in the marketplace of ideas. You could easily wind up with "this is the most newbie friendly and that is for socialization among various cliques, and well that one over there even lets Malachi post, stay away!". For that matter, you could have all three of those as subforums on the same site where differences in moderation would set various tones. Wanting this sort of outcome isn't selfish, it's diametrically opposite.

actualy I think that you will find that most of us are not arguing. We see no problem with the forum but some people have decided (a small handful that hardly uses these forums and some dont use them at all maybe 5 or 10 of them at most) and taken it upon themselves that the resmod program is evil and in this stand if this program is evil this forum must therefor according to them disappear because of course its better then the evil resmod program which none of us that are using the forum actually MIND.

so its a pretty one sided thing really and most of us including me say that we really dont see much wrong with this forum we like it and we post to it and hope it carries on. There is also a silent element of the community that uses this forum as a resource. i have a few friends who fit in that silent category and I asked them what they thought about the closing of this forum if it did happen. Theanswer was they didn't want to see it happen because they like the resources in the forum even if they dont actualy post to it.

So a half dozen people seem to have gotten it into their heads at various levels that LL must have a hand in this forum and if it doesn't have a hand in this forum the resmod program and the forum must go. Now if you read this thread exactly how many people in this thread agree that this forum should shut down?

I counted two. So the majority who is not arguing one way or another is simply saying no we like the forums and they are FINE as they are maybe ad a resmod or two to help out the present resmod and all is cool. Its just no one is listening .....

It would be a shame for a minority to achieve what a majority would hate to see.

The other issue is this group who want to see LL involved or no forum have not bothered to even ASK the community at large or poll it on its feellings one way or another.

Is there really an argument? I dont actualy see one I see noise being made by a minority and an effort to keep an issue which in essence a lot of people if not the majority either
a) dont care about one way or another
b) think is not an issue

in the forefront and visible.

Which is why i think this thread needs to sink and die

horrible evil wihlelm has spoken (again) and also says he is completely perplexed that this issue exists and that there is even a thread about this issue because nothing is actualy wrong...

*confuzzled*

As an simple example, it appears that you cannot discuss the economy of SL if it smells like market manipulation to the sole resmod. I don't see any way for that to be fixed under the current system and through months of disucssion we've seen no evidence that the current system is going to be changed.

Is there a way to fix that? Is there a way to fix this tragi-comedy of a thread which everyone wants to go away (yet we still continue to post to)? I've even gotten the impression that either "Linden Review" isn't handing out forum suspensions or that Strife isn't requesting them. If Strife's ability or inclination to punish trolling posts has been damped, is that fixable? Need I continue?

There would be a whole lot less arguing if people who disagreed with the way these forums are run (enough so to actually leave here) would stick to where they moved off to and not come running back whenever prompted to stir things up here.

(General observation, isn't directed at you specifically)

---

Ironically there's a quoted post from Strife on SLU with a sarcastic "Oh no, I hope he doesn't file a DMCA on me for taking his copyrighted posts". Of course when it comes to the official forums they're fair fodder for ridiculing as a whole, or its resmods, or its regulars by name.

The very worst thing you can find on here (other that someone who apparantly had a history of being banned from a third-party forum) is people who don't like another forum's style or atmosphere, both of which are valid, personal opinons. The same can not be said in reverse with blanket statements that whoever still posts here is useless anyway.