Brainstorm: bringing LL back to the forums

While anybody can post anything anywhere they please, I'd really suggest that Walker and Wilhelm take their discussion to private messages or in-world for a while, because as I read the posts, they have a great deal more in agreement than either of them is recognizing. Ther is a basic point of disagreement, but one that's at best tangentially related to the subject of this thread, and might be better addressed in a separate thread--AFTER the noise of mutual misunderstanding has damped a bit.

In fact, I'd encourage further discussion of ResMod selection to take place somewhere other than this thread. It's not unrelated, but it's really not the heart of the problem, nor do I think it the key to coaxing LL back to their official forums.

That said, it's not my thread or anything; I'm just keenly interested in any suggestions for how to get the Lindens back in the fold.

I have just decided to investigate my own recent posting history to see if it's true that I never usually post, and whether, if I do, it's genuinely unhelpful.

# Of the 53 posts so far in November, I have been involved in discussions about texturing, made recommendations about books helpful to beginner programmers, requested advice about capturing machinima to DVR/PVR like devices, suggested the RISK API may be responsible for the freezing of somebody's account, discussed graphics card lockups, speculated on the value of premium accounts (taking into account the stipend), requested technical information on the limitations of banlines, and shown an interest in a UK meet taking place in Manchester.

And you know what, this has been a quiet week for me.

How does your first week of November compare Wilhelm, and does it really matter anyway? You could make one post a month here as far as I'm concerned, and I wouldn't dream of marginalizing you or your opinions because of it.

Fair point. This is why I've continually tried to avoid responding to Wilhelm's posts, but I can only take so much pushing when I'm being deliberately misquoted and misrepresented.

If Wilhelm wants to take this to PM or in-world, he is quite welcome to do that. He has already posted a lengthy piece at SLUniverse, and he is (of course) welcome to continue this over there also. I don't think it will happen, but the offer is there.

Nah you just support it is all which is why your here.

its incredibly convenient that that load of hogwash gets posted and almost immediately a hoopla is started over someone recruiting more resmods here

keep your hate on slu where it belongs it doesn't belong here that's the point i'm tring to make these protests about the resmod process and paranoia about it etc doesnt belong here he' just trying to get volunteers.

you hardly ever post to resident answers forum and there are people suddenly posting over this one issue that never ever post here in just one thread.

Let the guy compile the list and leave the issue be. I hardly think its appropraite for you or any other single person to be saying "if i can't have it this way the forums must be closed"

if you dont understand it by now then you never will.

Nah i'm not interested in continuing this on slu and didn't want to even see it rear its ugly head here but I call a spade a spade and i know what i have been reading and its so uncanilly identical to what is being said here except slighly more polite and less paranoid. Again I call it as i see it and that is what I see. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it either.

and please dont tell me you dont know who said it and where its from because you were posting in the very thread about it. Again I call a spade a spade.

hehe it IS my thread and I really think Qie's suggestion would be best.

Walker and Wilhelm, love you both, particularly love your passion about this topic! But I'm sure you'll agree that, while your discussion is vital and should be continued, it's now become offtopic for this thread

I'm looking but can't find the Thank You button anywhere...

Well thank you anyway. I'm always looking for that thing too.

And Nika, you're ever the diplomatic sort. No worries on that score.

There's a huge difference between the RedMod program and the other volunteer programs.

When Live Help was first conceived, Robin Linden took suggestions from many of us who were doing things like frequently the old Ahern welcome area, teaching introductory classes, and so forth. One of the big topics of discussion was whether or not Live Helpers should have any kind of power above and beyond that of a resident. It was decided that NO, the only thing we should be doing is sharing knowledge and extending a helping hand, NOT meting out any kind of discipline or judgment.

The same was decoded for the other volunteer groups: educators, mentors, and so forth. It was the right decision then, and it is the right decision now.

No resident should be given powers above and beyond that of other residents. Can we help Linden Lab, perhaps? Sure, put a team together to review the posts that have been reported and only send along the ones the team as a whole agrees are important enough to Linden Lab to make a decision, but don't make leave the decision in resident hands.

That is exactly what is happening now, and has been for some time, and for many of us, it has stolen the soul these forums had. Forums can be many things to many people and should be allowed to be; having one resident wield all the power as decision making or what should stay open, what should be closed, with a smug attitude that doesn't really help the situation is not what I would call an appropriate course of action for Linden Lab to take.

Regards,

-Flip

The status quo may not be an appropriate course of action for LL, but it is certainly the one that requires the least effort by LL. I'm not sure if this has been explicitly pointed out, but as far as I've seen, the remaining resmod is the only one who advocates that words out in the forums could deprive you of access to the game. Fiefdom indeed.

Well, as this thread proves, we really don't need resmods here anyway.

From what I know of the characteristics of the third party forums and this forum, they will never be a totally unified official forum. People were banned for various reasons. Some were "valid" and some were not valid.

The same thing will happen all over again.

I was hoping peole would just let it die but they can't let it die ah well such is life it was at the bottom of page two and falling into obscuring where it kinda belongs. But meh whatever I get up fart around the net and here it is being bumped again...

I don't see much of a reason to abolish it either unless someone doesn't feel like taking responsibility for the things they post.

There's only one person I can recall who was suspended from the forums and in-world since RA was added and even though I did feel sorry for him, that thread did get completely out of control with attacks on people's personal beliefs.

Lets face it, LL pretty much purposefully decimated these forums and made clear statements about not seeing these forums as an important tool for communication and community building. Only with the opening of Resident Answers did the forums really stay alive. The lack of LL commitment to their Forums is clear. And so there is no shock that they left it to one lone Resmod.

If these Forums close - and with lack of backing from LL, how could they not close at some point, it is irresponsible of LL to continue to leave them open if they continue to not support them- the reason will be lack of support from the company that owns them. Its really that simple.

So if a rule is essentially never used - as you claim - why perpetuate it? Why not just rely on the "any reason or no reason" termination clause of the ToS? Unless you wish to wield it as a tool of arbitrary fear and supression of dialog, a rule that isn't used is Bad.

If some sense, forum bans leading to game bans is a bit of a red red herring as Bragg's case showed that unreasonable "taking" of virtual property may well be a matter the courts find interesting and remediable. In light of this, I think LL's own bar of bannination has likely been raised rather high as LL is liability averse.

My point, which I likely didn't make clear enough, is that when the customer who continues his "moderation" activities when all else have abdicated is also the one advocating that he have bannination rights is a classic abuse of power - perhaps moreso when he doesn't realize it is but a paper tiger.

I don't recall Strife ever advocating that ResMods have banning powers. Are you just making this up as you go along?

Of course I am making it up*:

" In a perfect world I would agree, but for the dedicated forum griefer being banned from the forums isn't an effective threat. How many times have we heard "ban me, see what I care"?

A griefer is defined by their actions, they can come to us pre-made or made by circumstance here. It's a sad thing when productive member of the community crosses that line. Tears the community apart. You get people saying "This person did great things for the community" and other people saying "This person is griefing"; they aren't mutually exclusive.

It's really a failing of the community that we let people get to that point. We the community should be catching people when they fall. They shouldn't be allowed to hit rock bottom like that." -- Strife Onizuka, 7 Sep 07

*/274/b0/208866/6.html#post1667616

Nowhere in this quote does Strife advocate that ResMods should have banning powers.
So you are making it up as you go along? Or are you simply reading into this what you want to read into it?

Click the link. He's responding to something Colette said. The context is important and it doesn't come across in that single quote.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do not believe that Strife has the authority to ban Residents from the forums.. and it follows then that he has no such authority to ban from the grid. Strife moderates the forums according to the rules set out by Linden Lab. If he sees something, or other residents bring something to his attention by flagging a post as "abuse", Strife has the discretion to send the situation on to Linden Lab for review (Linden Review) and the decision to ban, suspend, or otherwise take disciplinary action rests squarely with Linden Lab.

If you take from Strife's comments that he would prefer that authority for himself, then I think you are really misreading him, and the meaning of his words. With a few of you, it's apparent that you have an axe to grind, and are twisting words and contexts to try and better support your positions.

This thread is about encouraging more Linden intervention in the forums. Not getting rid of Strife. It's quote possible Strife was communicating ineffectively that day and only he can clarify that.

I have to agree, I don't think Strife is the issue here but is served up by some as red herring. Everything that is good or bad with the Second Life Forums flows from the policies and practices of Linden Labs. If Strife has any actual power, LL giveth and LL can taketh away.

Thank you for some much needed maturity and common sense in this excrement throwing fest....

Good point.

Ill go further the entire "issue" of the Forums being in such a sorry state is a Red Herring.

If you look at a dozen Forums and how good/bad they are, they would be right in the middle of the pack somewhere.