Big Shuffle in the All Search. Will it last?

After readin this thread i can honestly say....i now have a headache >.<

Did I call you a lowlife??
I have referred to search-gamers as lowlifes. That would be only me calling *you* a low-life if you are a search-gamer.

"Even (your friend?) Sling" ..
Must everything be a conspiracy? Must we form gangs?




I would say that giving the fullest accurate description of an item is an aid to the searcher in finding particular types of items.
I really don't see any gaming in that.

I would say that fully describing parcels and items is not gaming. It's very helpful to everyone.

When I think of "Gaming", I think of the deliberate subversion of search engine features.
SO for example:
- if Traffic is a ranking factor on the basis that it indicates worth, the artificial generation of Traffic is gaming.
- if Picks are a ranking factor on the same basis then the purchasing of Picks is gaming.
Mickey describes how she works her butt off to get people to vote with their Picks. She doesn't have a systematic Pick-buying regime in operation. She's not gaming. The gamers who go and buy Picks, and negate the value of her hard work piss on her and her efforts.


Gaming doesn't give anything to the searcher. It only benefits the gamer.
Although....... Phil asserts that his gaming actually benefits the community - as it ensures that they get to see his stuff in Search before other stuff that he considers to be of lesser quality than his. Some might say that this is an extremely self-serving line. Actually, I think that most people would say so.

a few points...

first...mickey...i agree with you 100% and welcome to the dark side...giggling. im with marcel...i find myself agreeing with you completely in this thread...bravo!

second...i agree that consumers are MUCH more informed and less like sheep than most people think. i hate to break it to you, but ive NEVER shopped someplace because of traffic...and ive never left a place because of their traffic count. ive said for a VERY long time that it is completely irrelevant to the consumer. also, most folks in SL are pretty tech savvy...they use google, they write code, they have been around the computer since it had cards and tape drives. these people are not some poor group of brainwashed sheep who wander aimlessly to and from places that are high in traffic rankings because they dont know better. they go to a store...if it has what appeals to them, they buy it...if it doesnt, they leave. so any attempt to "protect" them from corrupted search results is just weird.

third...if we get away from using the term "gaming" and just call it inflating traffic count, it is much more objective and covers the different methods more completely. And, im sorry, but anything that inflates traffic counts....inflates traffic counts...whether it is camping, lucky chairs, bots, midnight madness boards or whatever. the end result is more traffic and that influences place in all search. so if we get away from the incendiary terms and just look at it for what it is...as ive said before...some things are ok with SL and some arent. they are NOT inherently evil, bad, wrong, morally corrupt, ethically challeged etc. those are inflamatory terms used to to stir the pot. so as long as folks work within TOS, i will continue to not have an issue with the methods and anyone ive ever spoken to in world will agree. and picks are MUCH more influential as a billboard to use mickey's term than they are in all search rankings. i rarely use search to find new places to shop...i am much more likely to tp from a pick in someone's profile...whether that was a purchased spot or not i could care less.

so thanks sling et al, but i dont need you to protect me as a consumer or advocate for me...im good on my own. i will continue to run my biz with my head held high and be happy that my customers and my sales tell me what is right and what is working.

hahah...forgot one last point...i have a feeling that the concurency numbers in sl will not change much with the advent of no or fewer traffic bots...i think the crazy speculating we have seen about most of SL being bots is just nutty. lets check back in a month and see...

Mickey also sends out random gift certificates to people who list her store in their picks.

Oh you mean in 2003, right?

Because last i checked, the crowd coming in from 2007 onward has a weaker grip on SL than all prior generations.

Tech Savvy? Hardly. I learned my tech *in* SL.

If i recall correctly, there is a resident from 2007 who is complaining over a boat they rezzed in different thread and has no idea what a "Linkset" is in SL.

Who doesn't use Google these days?

I think the average SL user is an END USER now, a consumer. Not tech savvy. They may have used computers since the 80's or whatever, but users come in different flavors, and the flavor of the average SL user is "basic".

Have to agree with the above comment!

This is true and becoming even more true as time passes.
Cyn Linden talks of the Millions who will be joining but who are held back by the lack of "predictability" in the experience. These unheard-from millions are apparently a major driver in the AO move.
Whether or not one accepts the accuracy of that, it is pretty obvious that the main expansion in resident numbers will be ordinary consumers. The computer is just an appliance like their television. SL is just an interactive TV program for them.

The "tech-savvy" thing and people who know better than to be influenced by ranking / traffic figures doesn't hold even now.

Phil reported an experiment in which he withdrew his bots for a period.
He fell down the rankings and 25% of his normal sales went poof!
When he restored the bots, his sales recovered.
Clearly this was due purely to his placement in Places ranking and to nothing else. It had nothing to do with relevancy, quality, or whatever. People just gravitate to the highest ranked listings.

If it's the case that the Picks were placed on the basis of being offered a reward for doing so, then I would call that gaming.
If it's the case that people who have voluntarily placed picks because they appreciate the person or the goods get occasional unsolicited thank-you's, then I would not call that gaming.

You see, Sling, if you had any knowledge about the things you write, you could even be interesting once in a while. Yes - wonders really do happen sometimes. However, you still persist in writing things that you don't know. Here are a few examples:-

You see, you don't understand it. I doubt that you could even find the information on web. If you really do think you understand *how* IBLs affect rankings so much, please give us just a little smattering of it, so that we know you really do know. I'll confirm whether or not you are right. Alright? You said you know how it works, so let's hear just a little bit of it as proof, because I don't believe you.

I grasp it all. I just don't agree with you, that's all.

That's 2 examples so far. What else have we? Ah yes...

(1) I don't promote myself at all and (2) I've never described myself as a tech let alone a tech guru. I've been a programmer and an SEO, but that's all.

That's 4 examples.

There are 2 more here. I don;t think I need to explain them - not to others, anyway, and you couldn't understand the explanations. So we have 6 examples so far - in just one post.

7.


Oooo. You got something right. Well done, Sling!

And another. You're on a roll.

Here endeth your roll. "a thing of wonder"? LMAO. I said that it was beautiful to watch it in operation. That's 9.

Well, that 9 things that you've stated that weren't true at all - that you didn't know what you were talking about - and all in the same post. Do you wonder why people don't take much notice of what you have to say?

That reflects a truism that you can make the greatest product since sliced bread, but no one can buy it if no one has heard about it.

And that just says to me that Traffic needs to be removed as the single most important advertising tool in Second Life.

Even if no one "gamed" Traffic, it would still not accurately reflect a product's quality, or relevancy of search for a product.

That's just 9 things that you disagree with.
That's all.

That's right.
The same applies to Picks - for the same reason.

No. It's 9 things you said in that one post where you didn't know what you were talking about. That's what we're discussing,

So how do IBLs work to improve rankings, Sling. You said you knew how they work, so let's have it please. Failure to tell us how it works will be taken as an admission that you don't know what you're talking about.

hmmm so the crowds of people ive met in SL that have been working with computers since the 60's are NOT tech savvy?? and the folks who use twitter and have been working with audio and video on computers since they were in elem school are NOT tech savvy? and anyone who can figure out how to walk, build or do anything else in SL is NOT tech savvy???

my mom can only do email...she is NOT tech savvy. the majority of folks in SL who last past day one are more tech savvy than the general population...they own a computer and are on it enough to want to PLAY on it and DO things with it instead of use it for a typewriter.

i think you seriously underestimate the folks who are in SL...or maybe you hang with different folks than i do. just because someone does not know how to rez an item - which is a skill that is specific to SL - has NO bearing on whether they are tech savyy in my opinion. i can be tech savvy and also only be an end user...that does not mean i dont have an advanced understanding beyond what the general public has.

my point was that people in sl are smarter than you are giving them credit for being....and search is a tool...not a directive on what and how they should purchase items. phil uses bots but that is NOT his only form of marketing or his only use of the system to make himself visible in search. he also competes in a very broad category - low prim furniture - which to rise to the top is def a challenge. some folks like me choose to be a big fish in a little pond and highlight specific items to rise to the top of search.

relevance is totally subjective when it relates to purchasing habits...what is relevant to me might not be relevant to you...so no amount of using a formula for search is going to return results that are on the money for everyone.

It isn't all that hard really. Surely. Are you describing your contents in a way that their details can be easily indexed? Certainly, go ahead, that is just being sensible (I do it myself to an extent).

Are you adding extra beyond the semantic to give you a higher rating? Are you adding keywords that do not actually reflect what you have, but which are popular? Are you paying people for picks? Do you have camping? (etc) Yes? You are a fraudster. You are trying to exploit the limitations of a search system which keys on a limited number of things.

So explain the 9 things in detail.
Your usual 'Because I say so' is not enough.
Your usual 'proof by repetition' is not enough.
Failure to explain will be taken as an admission that you are a bag of wind.

I don't underestimate the folks in SL.

I just have like 4 years on you watching residents come and go and watching new residents go from being "tech savvy" in RL, to being tech ignorant in SL.

Sure, there are LOTS of technical computer types in SL who do not grasp SL tech, but yet are tech savvy.

And ya, we hang with different crowds. Way different.

Tech savvy people can PICK UP SL TOOLS EASILY. So 'rezzing a prim' is a metric, knowing how to edit your attachments "properly" is a metric. Tech savvy people generally do not shy away from technologies they have been exposed to.

Computer software is getting easier and easier to use and figure out. Computers are spreading to places they would have never been back in the 1990's bringing more people to the desktop than ever before and many of which had never used a computer before. To use a computer these days requires very little "tech savvy" After all the interface for Outlook is far more intuitive than the interface for Eudora ever was.

As time goes by, more and more users who are not 'tech savvy', make their way here to become regular non-producing, non-prim rezzing, end users.

And contrary to what you may believe, the general population is not trying to PLAY more with their computer and they DO use it for just a typewriter....except the type writer now does email as well. HOORAY!

And to quote Sling:

If we agree that Traffic itself is the problem, and that it is just as useless whether or not it is "gamed," I guess I just don't understand why you are angry with people who game it. It's not their fault that Traffic is a garbage statistic and that it is the predominant method of advertising in Second Life. I don't see any of the gamers posting that they are in love with Traffic, and wouldn't want to see it disappear altogether. You and they have constructive common ground.

(I don't know whether I agree that Picks are as bad as Traffic, but that's just because I haven't thought very much about them yet. Except that I feel cheated about finding out that when individual avatars customize the descriptions of Picks, it degrades their search value.)

I know what you would like is to have some sort of common understanding of ethics that would guide business owners to maybe work cooperatively to overcome the problem of Traffic.

However, Traffic itself is so useless and unfair, I think you are doomed in the quest to get anyone to come to a common understanding of ethically using it.

It's just like a legal justice system. People are more likely to obey the legal authority if they believe the legal authority is far, despite what personal gain they might have by defying the legal authority. People are more likely to disobey a legal authority if they percieve the legal authority as unjust, despite the fact that ultimately they will take a net personal loss by defying the legal authorty, through punishment for breaking the law.

If Traffic were somewhat fair, even if imperfect, you would gain a lot more traction advocating that everyone play nice. However, Traffic and its use is so unfair, and so absurd, that I don't think you will successfully rally some sort of standards of business ethics around it.

I didn't care much about it until I became co-owner of a club a few months ago. Forget about the money I am hemmoraging keeping it open; I never planned to make a profit, just hoped to break even. However, I have a lot of hard working dancers, and it is my responsibility to bring customers in to enjoy them. Regarding of whether they are getting tips, dancing in an empty club is no fun.

Every night I do not bring in customers to watch them, I am failing them, I am wasting the time they could be spending doing something else and having fun, I am betraying their trust in me that I will do my job for them as faithfully as they are doing their job for me. And sure I am biased, but I have seen other clubs in my niche, and I honestly believe mine is the best, not because of my work, but because of my dancers.

I absolutely will not fail them night after night for a vague notion that it is somehow "fair" that Second Life's screwy use of Traffic prevents them from enjoy the rewards of their talents and hard work.

It was perhaps different when my only SL business was selling original art, and I really didn't care about making money (I sold an average of one per week, at L$ 25 a pop, but it was okay because a friend of mine was letting me have a free space in her mall). But then I only answered to myself. I have a responsibility to every dancer who devotes time to that club.

I will applaud the day when a system is introduced that accurately allows quality to be ranked. Because my club I believe would do quite well in such a system. Until then, I have to work with what I have. And what I have is the evil of Traffic.

They do not piss on me! Do not speak for me!

I told you that I give gift certificates out for those who have the store in picks.

The people pissing on me are the ones who want to make a moral judgment on that, and turn it into a sleazy tactic instead of nice gesture. What I do is not different than what they do - so call me a gamer too, and I really don't mind. 50% of what I do every day for advertising is probably considered "gaming" by your definitions.

If the people who pay for picks want to spend their advertising money that way, with a "systematic regime" - that's totally cool with me. And I consider it no different than what I do....except that they are more consistent, and probably paying more money.

If you get upset that they are paying more money - I'm probably paying more than they are for ads on Classified or Xstreet. But Who Cares? Why is that your business?

Yeah, that.

For once, I would love to see a mod wander by and close this up because it has turned into something nasty personal thingie instead of a useful discussion.

So you did call me a lowlife. Because in your definition I am a search-gamer.


I don't know, enlighten me? I suspect you and Ordinal are friends, that is why I asked Ordinal.


But it is keyword spamming Sling. Because I put "low prim furniture" behind each item. It does fully describe the product, but I added the last part because of Search All. Not because I was afraid that people did not understand it was a low prim item.


Well if you did read Mickey's posting, she does not agree with you at all. Ain't that something. She does have a pick reward system. She gives away gift certificates. But only among people with picks. So she rewards people with picks just as I do.


You twist words. Kind of a habit. Phil (and me) create what we promise. Low prim furniture. And we rank high, because we also put effort in getting our rankings, not only in the creation process. And yes we do the people searching for low prim furniture a favour because they can find us, and often like what they found.

Sure there are others, who make good low prim furniture. Ad a lot of people selling no low prim furniture at all. Still ranking pretty high though, because the talented people forgot to work on their ranking. What you call gaming, we call working to be found. And I am very glad, that it pays off

This is my experience too. As SL has appealed more and more to mainstream society in recent years the technical ability of the avaage user (with regards to SL) has declined allot It's getting worse too imo. It's all good for business though. Their incompetence is our (the creators) gain.

More stupid people is what we need Bring on the teenagers!

You know... search gaming is like spam emails. Sure it's bad on the systems out there

All it does is allow the spammers to be seen and found by people that wouldn't normally see their products... they just work harder to be seen than others!

guess they shouldn't make laws against spam then! It's just marketing.


/end sarcasm

I'm already here.