do we even want voice?

ah point taken

as for the 200 popups well been there done that before the pop up disablers came into effect

(not this forum but websites in general used to be BAD for popups)

Yes! Thank you Colette.

I've tried to get this across, but no one ever gets it. From what I've gathered is that there are a lot of non-voice-wanters on the fourms--and that is why I've expressed (in my last post) that the forum does by NO means signify the general feeling of the average SL (in-game) citizen.

It is not a hassle to mute idiots. There aren't THAT many of them. And if there are, you are in the wrong location. As far as having a "nasty" experience...that happens whether you have voice enabled or not, with the same frequency. We must cope either way.

That's I think the problem people have. The view of voice as "the next evolutionary step" when, in fact, it actually adds a huge number of limits that people might not be comfortable with.

IRL, my job involves giving presentations quite often, including to the public. Many of the people I give presentations to are people who are interested in computers, who are also (coincidentally) most likely to be people who are trying out SL. Some of the presentations are recorded and put on-line. I'm hardly what anyone would call a celebrity, but still - there are a significant number of people "out there" who have heard my voice, and associate it with the real me and my real name and my real employment. Now, voice has the potential to let me bring some of that presentation skill further into SL, it's true. But the tradeoff is that, if I use voice in SL, then essentially I would become responsible _at my job_ for what I did in SL. And that essentially means it's no "Second Life" at all. And before you say "well, just don't do any dodgy adult things" - it wouldn't be just that; even a simple choice of avatar can be judged.

And on the avatar issue - I know people think about the "lies" issue, but I think more than that is the issue of the bait and switch. I've met people who arrived here new, loved the avatar options, and paid hundreds of US$ for Lindens to spend on their avatars - and now are essentially being told that that must all be thrown away, because the avatar they made doesn't fit their voice.

As for voice users not discriminating.. well, the unfortunate truth is that they do. If you go to places where people are voicing, you just see silence, and no-one pays attention to the text. And I had some confirmation of this when a friend who was actively making effort NOT to discriminate against text users found that she _wasn't able to avoid it_. The human brain just isn't wired to use two communication channels at the same time! Try reading a book while someone is talking to you: _inevitably_ one or other loses out on concentration.

You missed my point entirely.

I mean it sailed right over your head.

It wasnt even on the same Floor as you are.

Id suggest reading the begining of this thread and Morwen's account of what happened in the Welcome area. (page 3)


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Theres a large number of people dont want to voice, for whatever reason. But only some of those want to get RID of voice.

The rest are willing to accept Voice is here to stay.

Many of those dont give a damn what voicers think.

Others dont want to be harrased by voicers. They want the fact that its a potential problem RECOGNIZED not glossed over.

-And-

Wading 200 Popup ads is Infuriating

Just like muting everyone who is annoying when asking for voice will be.

I have only one thing to say about this - and it is on the issue of a person's voice not fitting the avatar: Yep - a male playing a female AV may have a few problems - aside from that the notion is complete and utter balderdash!

NO ONE really knows how an Elf, Dragon, Troll or any other fantasy character is supposed to sound! The only reason these types have such an issue is due to the media hype!

I'm a Role Player myself and due to the character I use (when actually playing) I've got a lot of stuff I can use ... including several non-human AVs (he can shape shift). Thing of it is ... no one really knows what a shape shifting Spirit/Soul Guide is supposed to sound like. I could just use my normal voice and it could still be the voice of Solar. However I have had a lot of practice in altering my own voice WITHOUT the use of Voice Masking software ... Solar (the character) has a slightly dark and yet kind tone to his voice, as well as sounding rather ethereal, the weight of the ages evident in the undertones. Merge all of this with a fairly good Romainian accent and you have the voice I use when In Character.

and no one can tell me that the voice I use is not the right voice - because no one really knows what that voice is supposed to sound like.

No, I don't want voice. If I do want it, I already have it, as I have TeamSpeak that I can run on my own server. For those without a server, there is Skype. Both solutions are already there, already present, already polished, and COMPLETELY voluntary and opt-in. They don't require any SNALU incidents to use, and they are at least as good, if not better than the SL voice system, despite integration (which I already loathe the way they did it).

No, I won't be using the SL voice chat system. Anyone who harasses me over it, even the slightest hint of such, gets on my permanent mute list. I've been through that hassle in other online services; I definitely won't put up with it here.

The simple value of that portion of your statement is lost on many. Thanks for pointing it out.

don';t paint with such a broad brush, not all voice users are like that
sure the chat can go silent with or without voice
sometimes voice goes silent as we all type to the non voicers

says all and no one implies just that, and I resent being grouped as someone who ignores text user, and can not use two communication channels at the same time

I am an avid multi tasker
I used to use irc and msn at the same time, be on the phone, watch TV, sometimes reading my book and surfing the web, ALL at the same time
none suffered due to the other

so please choose your words carefully and say maybe most, or some but please not all, because not all of us are like that

it would be the same as me saying all non voice users are gender benders afraid of being discovered (I do not believe that, just attempting to make a point)

Or an older woman playing a younger female AV. (This can result in almost as much stigma as a male playing a female AV.)

Or a woman playing a female AV, who doesn't want to voice, and has everyone thinking she's a man as a result - a truly nasty possibility



Yes, this is true, but most people have some idea of the "traits" of these creatures and expect a voice that is roughly in tune with them. Of course nobody knows how a dragon really sounds - but if you were watching a fantasy film, and a dragon appeared on the screen and spoke, and the voice that came out was the voice of Micheal Crawford as Frank Spencer; or the voice of Rick Moranis as Darth Helmet; or similar.. then, well, you'd be thinking that this dragon was a joke, somehow. Or for a recent example, how about Shrek? Again logically, nobody knows how an ogre or a talking donkey should sound, but imagine if the film had been made with Shrek's and Donkey's voices swapped. It wouldn't make sense, would it? Would you say that it would be fine for the Fairy Godmother to have the same voice as the Wicked Queen - after all, they are both "older women", and beyond that we don't know anything about what voices they should have?

No. I like listening to music or quiet "outside sounds" not people's annoying squeeky voices.

The statement is being made by a person too used to having to sign up for a service. No one ever asked the users of AOL or any other major service provider what they wanted in terms of features and changes - and a good deal of those changes (switching to a fully web based system for message boards for example) cannot even be turned off.

So long as you have the choice to turn the Voice system off, it IS Voluntary and Opt-In ... Far more than most service companies would be willing to allow at that.

Now then, to what Talarus has said regarding Team Speak and Skype ... I don't have Team Speak but I DO have Skype, as does my partner .... skype does NOT work behind a heavy firewall, coupled with a proxy system and other heavy security measures.

Right now she is forced to run Skype off of a thumb drive and on a college library computer - the same computer can also run Second Life and the Voice Client!

Guess what? We've never lost a single call in the Voice Client! We've had nothing but problems when using Skype. Sure, it used to work perfectly fine when she actually had her own computer (A rented laptop - one that she couldn't bring with her when she moved) but now it's nothing but audio cutting out and the call being dropped every five minutes.

If you call that 'better' than Second Life's system ..... I'd hate to see what you consider to be worse.

I'm sure there are some people who can do it - that wasn't what I was trying to say, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

What I was trying to say is that, for ANY form of discrimination, most people will say they would never discriminate because they wouldn't take direct action to do so. Which is great, but the problem is, for many forms of discrimination you don't _have_ to take direct action to do so. You have to _go out of your way not to_. And a lot of people find that uncomfortable and unreasonable.

As a real life analogy: would you discriminate against a deaf person? Probably you will answer that you would not. But when you are sitting with 4 or 5 of your friends at a club or bar, and a deaf person comes up to join you, will you all switch to sign language (having all already learned it, to avoid discriminating)? No, and you would complain if you were expected to do so. When you say you wouldn't discriminate against deaf people, you mean you wouldn't take active action to keep them out of places, but not necessarily that you would bend over backwards to fit them in. Unfortunately, the same applies to not discriminating against text users - unless you make active effort to multitask, you _will_ be discriminating whether you wanted to or not.

I don't agree.

Voice communication completely breaks down the barrier between the virtual world and the real world. This is perfectly fine for people who want that, and who basically see their SL selves as a virtual representation of their RL selves (even if that virtual representation is someone in RL who is engaged in RPing in SL). For people who want a greater separation -- not just men playing women (although that's totally legitimate, in my opinion), but also people who want to play a different persona -- maintaining that separation is an important issue. In every context where I have seen voice communications used, it's the people in real life talking to each other, and nothing else, really. As I say, that's fine for people who use SL as a virtual extension of their RL selves, but for the many people who use SL otherwise, voice is a hindrance, not an enhancer, to their experience.

Hence why I do not plan to use voice.

The biggest problem with having an 'idea' of the 'proper' traits is really that we often forget that any fantasy creature can have a voice as varied as what we see here in the real world.

How many times have you met a big, burly male and expected a deep, strong voice ..... only to hear what sounds like a squeak come out of his mouth?

How many times have you run into a smashing beauty and expected to hear this melodious voice .... only to hear the damage done by years of smoking, drinking or shouting?

Let us not forget the tonal range of the human voice as well.

In any event, please read my earlier example (my own character) to see what I mean. The people able to make the most of this are the ones with some voice acting ability.

SL voice is also voluntary and opt-in

all you need to do is just click yes or no to the voice

no one is forcing you to use it

MSN has voice abilities, yet not everyone uses the voice, why is it such an issue with SL having voice abilities?

I get the impression many ppl think that WE HAVE to use voice in SL, when that is not the case, WE HAVE a choice to use it or not.

That is what seems to be lost on some ppl.

I like having options, I would rather have the choice, than no choice

That's a very bold, unsubstantiated comment. Voice was implemented into the grid months ago, and they've made only minor changes in the last couple weeks. Also, since voice runs through a 3rd party system, it doesn't have the effect on the grid that you're implying. Especially screwing up search and L$ balance, etc.

I don't think these reasons are strong enough to squelch the positives, and the community members that embrace it. And I do not feel the "limitations" of voice even come close to the benefits of voice--there are WAY more pros than cons.

I'm guessing it's pretty rare that a citizen's voice will be recognizednot unless your Jack Nicholson. So, I don't think this argument holds water. No one is going to recognize your voice, and say, "Hey, it's _______ ______, what are you doing in SL!?" If you fear being recognized...then you're a touch too paranoid. That's my opinion.

Your next issue of "voice fitting the AV" is valid I suppose. But, if you are that concerned about your RL voice not matching your AV, then you should either get a new AV, or get a new voice! I'm kidding. Again, I think this particular issue is a small one--if you don't like your RL voice...that is a personal problem. If you honestly don't like it because it doesn't fit your AV...well then make a new AV to fit your voice.

And lastly, this discrimination issue. I think it has been blown WAY out of proportion. I've been in SL for years, and I've experimented with the Firstlook Viewer from day one...there is no more or less discrimination with voice or not voice. I think that is ludicrous. I have saying I think applies here: "An asshole is an asshole, is an asshole." This goes with voice...or without voice. They are every where--voice doesn't change this.

Whether we want it or not there is a term called "inter-reality"--this is the blending of virtual/digital content, and the real world. There is no escaping this...again, we must embrace it, and see in it the good. Because Lord knows there is a lot of good in it. Most of you are currently enjoying massive doses of inter-reality, and you don't even know it. Without it...there would be no Second Life.

You miss my point.

I too would have problems with skype and lag
remember skype does take some of your bandwidth to add to the pool of bandwidth out there for all users it is right in their agreement

and skype is limited on how many can be in a call


*shrug*

This isn't true. Most people in an area may be using Voice so you're stood there wondering why people aren't doing anything when they're actually using Voice, but you have no idea what's going on because you've got it disabled. So it would be a case of "if you actually want to speak to anyone anymore or see lots of conversations, you HAVE to use Voice. That doesn't seem very voluntary.

These are NOT VALID WORK-AROUNDS. Stop bringing them to the table.

1) They are third party software, running behind SL. Both Skype and Teamspeak are RAM hogs...and lord knows a lot of us need all the ram we can get. They eat up WAY more RAM than SL's voice technology.

2) A very small fraction of citizens have, or are willing to download a third party application to join in on voice. Some people don't know how to find it and install it. Some people are too lazy. But if it's set up for a click of the button, the majority of the populous will use it.

That's all I have to say about third party applications--they are not valid options for the majority of users.

SL voice is completely voluntary and opt in from a technical standpoint

- but -

Voice in SL wont be hastle-free, voluntary and opt-in from a social one.


You said you saw my point in a previous post. This is part of it.

Again no one is going to "cancel" SL voice now. So those worried it will be are really not getting the issues.

Aha, but surely you can see how this operates to restrict people's choices right off the bat. Basically you're saying that people should make their AVs more like their RL personas -- which is fine if people WANT to do that, but in my opinion it should not be an expectation that people will do that -- there should not be an expectation that people should limit themselves like that. Again, the problem is not in the technology (which is fine for people who want to use it, in my view), but in how that technology impacts the way people view others, and their expectations about the behavior of others. In these areas I see voice as pretty limiting compared to the current system.

I would like to point out that Role Playing online requires a certain distancing between the Player and the Character .... The same is true of Live Action Role Play and even Acting in general - Once you start in on a scene it ceases to be you. Yep, in role Play you have to think and choose how you want to play the scene out .... but in the end you are not the one in the action at all.

I came to Second Life to attempt to jump start my own creative ability .... I had not had a character idea in months, hadn't had any new story line ideas in just about as long a time ... I entered Second Life with the full intent of leaving behind my real life and simply remaining In Character.

Like ANY service however that proved to be impossible. I still have to hop out of character every once in a while simply because of the type of people you've mentioned - those that see SL as an extension of their Real Life. I also have to hop Out Of Character for those who take SL so seriously as to believe that their Second Life is REAL (those I ignore almost at once ... an old habit from my text RP days).

The user base will use Voice for whatever purpose they'd like .... me? I make damn sure people know if I'm In Character or not ....

Stop mumbling Colette. You missed my points entirely, I mean, not even the same planet. (two can play at your belittling games).

I did not miss your point. I was right on it.

And finally, where the heck is the 200 pop-up tie coming from? Where are you hanging out where you have to "wade through" dozens upon dozens of voicers? You're just being silly. I've been using Firstlook for a long time, and I've never had that problem.