No-fly zones are killing the fun

Let me get this straight... Banking, as well as every other person who owns land, has an agreement with Linden Labs, an agreement that has to do with a service they provide, that service being the use of virtual land in Second Life. Part of this agreement, part of this service, is that the person that "owns" the land is allowed to ban, stop, restrict easement yadda yadda other people on that land. That's established. that exists now.
What Banking, and myself, disagree with is that this proposal takes away part of this agreement. He's not "forcing his opinion", he's defending his right, as defined above.
Those saying "I should be allowed to enter your land (even though you have an agreement saying that you paid money to be allowed to stop me from doing that) because I think it's this and that and I want to fly and I think it's immersive and I think the way you want to play is wrong and the way I want to play is right" ARE trying to force their opinions. Why? Because what they want and what they are saying are just that. Opinions. What Banking and myself are defending are already existing facts. They are real things.
Semantics of "But is that really a right?" aside, let's call it a right (at least until someone arguing "It's not really a right..." actually define what they think it is).
What the OP and the rest are proposing is a taking away of that right.

And I'm sorry, but to me, that's just wrong.



I don't think he actually made a threat.



This has nothing to do with ANY of this. Protecting your pre-existing rights and doing what you want on your own land... wait... let me bold that... on your own land has nothing to do with what you do on others. Banking has given his reasons for not wanting this right, this ability, this whatever you want to call it, taken away.

Has anyone given a reason for wanting to take away something we pay for, other than "I want it and I think I should have it"?

Main is a mess as we all know, mostly because of the proliferation of rude behavior.

Perhaps since Banking is a noob, he should visit Otherland or any of the class act private regions and see how SL was at one time… a Community !

The private regions forbid his crapola in Covenants.. People actually do balloon ride and sail sim to sim. Once in a while an eejit refugee from main will buy land and erect a blockade until the region managers catch up and straighten out the situation.


Is a shame your “I want to be alone” complex has forced you to threaten griefing my sim. Great way to get a privacy time-out, courtesy of the Lindens.

Seems that the ultimate ‘privacy’ is there at upper right.. the X

Bri, from experience I find most people describing people as 'noobs' fit the definition rather well, more so than the one they try to describe by it. For the record, I'm going on a year and a half in SL. Don't judge by an alts age.

Even when I started, I had my idea of community. I own the land. I pay the teir. You do not.

You have ZERO say on what I do with my land. Since I didn't threaten, only responded to your comment, I'll stick around. I will use MY land with MY privacy to chat with MY friends in SL. If I use the 'x' I can't do that, but just because I'm being social to my friends does NOT mean I have to be equally sociable to EVERYONE.

Its my land, its my right to decide who can use it.

Dallas- Noone has passage rights over private land, under 768. PERIOD. At any height under than the PRIVATE land owner can put up security or ban lines. It doesn't matter what you think they should have, I pay for the land.

You want ultimate sociability? There are sandboxes and Linden public areas aplenty. My land is not one of them.

Osprey- Premium only privacy areas would be a HUGE draw for premium accounts and a great feature.

This thread burned out its usefullness a long time ago. That guy PAYS THE TIER and OWNS THE LAND and doesnt give a damn if somebody wants to fly along without hitting some invisible obstruction. Hes absolutely correct in his assessment that the Lindens have given him permission to create sky hazards. As long as there are people with such strict needs for isolation that an overflying aircraft bothers them, then we will have difficulty with air travel. SL wants you to fly, everybody can do it even without an airship. LL got all excited when they saw the first aircraft developed. HOW KOOL, FLYING MACHINES!
Too bad they didnt have the foresight to put a plan in place to keep air travel easy and safe. Now all it takes is a full parcel or some ITS MY LAND guy to keep you from traveling from point A to point B without getting blown out of the sky a half dozen times. No Fly zones and 'parcel full' situations have destroyed air travel in SL. Thats the bottom line, and unless LL comes up with some fancy method of addressing the situation, then one more fun element of SL will be gone. Trying to talk a few banliners into being more hospitable isnt gonna cut it, this is a major malfunction that goes way beyond that.

For me it hasn't - rather than just having the present rules laid out, I think it's useful to hear different ideas and figure out if there's a better way to do things.

So sorry to have thought you inexperienced in SL, needing a guide.
I guess you do get around, curious how?
What we need are hard SL rules to keep the Ban-O-Holics within their comfy zone.

No Ban lines above 100 M max.
No orbiting or common space weapons.
No blocking of a waterway with no passage.
All land owners must reserve 30 prims on parcels or LL change the measure.
Appoved privacy scripts must stay within a structure.

The rest of the rudeness games can stay for the pleasure of the Ban-O-Holic Communty.

Yes, I took that as a threat…check the rules of the forum.

I vote for a special ban-a-holic region, no water and the sky full of smog where the ban maniacs can ban the s**t out of each other without bothering others. We, non-brainless people will avoid that area of course.

They can make a no ban lines section for the 'brainless' people if they like.

What we need are hard rules for travellers:

1. No bitching about private land owners
   
2. No whining if you can't cross land that isn't public and you don't pay teir for
   
3. No complaining a parcel is full, because the landowner pays for the full allotment, not partial
   
4. Security scripts cannot cross LAND BOUNDARIES.
   

It doesn't matter if you -took- it as a threat. The fact is it -wasn't- a threat.

The rudeness of those demanding we not use our PAID FOR prims, and not have control over our PAID FOR land can stay on their own land and public land.

I'm glad SL is not filled with people like Banking Lafs, whining 'I pay my teir and you don't so you can't come here neener neener', you sound like a baby. I pay taxes in my country, you don't, that doesn't mean you're not welcome though. I agree with Bri, all people should have 'right of way'.

I'm welcome on public land and places that allow me there, like a friends house. But I can't walk into your house and just hang out and use your bed. Do you own your whole country? Can you go into every home, even the military bases? No. And RL is irrelevant to the conversation anyway.

On SL you can fly above the group access, or go around. I give 10 seconds warning on security orbs - even at unaided avatar flight you can go 100 m before thats over. The only reason to get caught by my security is to be loitering. If you're just passing through, avoid the ban lines, and you're good, even in a hot air baloon travelling at 3 or 4 m/s.

It doesn't matter if you agree, you have no legal leg to stand on, whereas I do on the basis of my agreement with LL. The only 'right of way' you have is to keep moving where I don't have ban lines. You in no way have the right to run around my land in any way you like, as you don't have the agreement with LL for that section of land. Get over your sense of entitlement- my opinions are based on what LL has given me.

Hahahaha you're taking yourself way to serious, please get a grip. Security orbs? You sound like a character in a bad science fiction movie. After reading this I have no desire to be on your land with or without my legal legs (whatever those are) or with my sailboat. To me this is the end of the discussion with you, have a nice 1st and 2nd life.

You were the one saying anyone who used bans brainless, so if I'm taking msyelf too seriously, at least I'm not the only one. Welcome to the club, and to my ban list just in case. Thats 768m high for you.

Problem solved then, because you aren't welcome on his land

@slanty and bri:
Why is it people who restrict their property must be called names, and should be pushed into a special area? Here's an idea for you flamers, BUY AN ISLAND!
You call those with banlines stupid, and yet you fail to see that you can buy all the open access you want just as they can buy all the closed access they want. Or is it because you want the benefits of owning land without paying the price that you flame everyone else.

If you bothered to take a look in world, you would know that banlines do not extend more than 65m. If you are seeing banlines above 100m, then you must be specifically banned from that parcel. With that kind of attitude, it's not suprising.

As for the idea of forcing landowners to reserve 30 prims for your benefit, how about we force all you travellers to pay 1/4 of the cost of the land, plus 1/4 of the monthly tier that those reserved prims cost? Each 512m parcel only has 117 prims assigned. Oh, I forgot, we all owe you something for nothing.

FYI I do have a private residential island that I keep totally open to all including no pays. And a number of larger parcels scattered about the grid. My access ban box is clean and anyone may fly their buns off over me. I can't remember when someone landed a balloon sat down and started building a pre-fab in my living room. Though I support having privacy in a Home.

As to my prim reserve comment; that was a hope that LL finds a way to temp 32 ..till then I give it gladly from my allowance.

The way I look at it;
tis my way of giving back for the income, help and fun afforded me by the community.

First timers do fumble and stumble often, but we all did in some way.
So what’s the point in making their SL experience miserable?

I also donate a help and freebie store that hopefully offsets the selfish wrath of the BanLiner, 10 seconds to death Folk…

I'm all for a way to allow passing vehicles at a set height without affecting the land owners usage of prims, but that is something to be taken up with LL.

I also appreciate when people leave entire sims open (I live close to a great guy who leaves a mainland water region open with all rights) but that is your choice and shouldn't affect those who wish to close their land.

Demanding that landowners drop their restrictions only pushes people in the other direction. The one thing I have seen to change my mind about dropping access lines was my neighbour keeping his sim open to all even after cleaning up the mess left when somebody decided to "rent" his land out for him, without bothering to get his permission.
Seeing that attitude in world is a lot more effective as a mind changer than seeing "you're stupid, drop your banlines" in a forum.

I still think the best solution to opening the grid would be a flag on objects that marks it as a vehicle. Give land owners the option of setting a minimum fly height (upto say 100m), maximum time in parcel and the option of removing sounds from those objects, and it would not be a bother to land owners or flyers.
With the minimum flying height, the sim could automatically raise the vehicle to that height when traversing a specific parcel so nobody would have to hit any lines at all.
The maximum fly time would enable the land owners to decide how long people can loiter, and automatically eject those who have been in the parcel too long. Possibly the vehicle could be pushed out of the area when the timer expires instead of being auto returned.
With the vehicle being marked as a vehicle, no prim count would need to be applied to the parcel.

I do not say this is the only solution, and I don't expect everyone to agree, but a little compromise from those who wish to fly over as well as the landowners is needed for anything that stands a chance of working. Expecting all the compromise to come from the landowners will not work. Without compromise, you want to remove a lot of perceived rights without giving anything back. If I proposed the removal of all flying vehicles, I suspect there would be a lot of anger over it.

Edit: Putting my money where my mouth is, I have dropped my access lines. Everyone is now welcome to fly over my land. I'm still in full support of those who wish to restrict their land though.

Sys, it's not a 'betrayal' to not have ban lines up, its your choice. Me saying you have to have them up would be as bad as these other two saying others have to have them down (or calling them names if they actually exercise the rights they have on their land).

Ban lines and security orbs don't destroy second life. They don't destroy a newbies persepective. Greifing and camp-killing sims do.

Vehicles are supposed to be counted as seperate using the sim's temp prim allotment (the same one that temp rezzers use - meaning thats also an enemy of vehicles) - and should not affect the prims on land. Unfortunately, there are tales of vehicles crossing land and the landowners objects being returned due to over the limit of normal prims, and the visiting vehicle owner not suffering at all. Somestimes entire houses.

There are also tales of vehicles not being able to enter a plot because there aren't enough prims.
*Shrugs*

I didn't take them down for any of the reasons given in this thread.
Like I say, one of my neighbours has an almost empty sim that he doesn't mind people using (even for building). Another neighbour I helped with the land purchase and house building didn't put up banlines, and it was nice having people drop in to see what was happening. We are lucky to have a few sims around that are all residential (bar the club, who own an entire sim but don't put out camping chairs). It helps with the feeling of neighbourhood.

Access restrictions have served their purpose for me. I bought land within a week of joining and set it to group owned so my missus could do what she needed. I didn't want to allow anyone in except close friends until I knew what was what with the land options.
Now everything is set how I want it, I'm not losing any privacy by allowing others in (there never was any) and they can't build so I don't have to worry about plywood boxes.

However, I support your right (for want of a better word) to restrict your land however you want to. I don't expect anyone else to be ripping down their banlines, nor will I try to sell them on the idea. If a ban only system works for you, then sure. If you want access restrictions, then that's fine as well.

It'd be nice to take vehicles all over the grid, but it's something that LL will have to implement and I don't want to see it at a cost to others. If I need to, I can use a flight feather and a pair of wings

My first post: I have followed this thread closely cuz it shows social mindsets. I don’t fly, I sail in game. The flyers can go over red tape, sailing you are stuck. We need a way to see it coming and hot key a moor to avoid losing it all. Some bans use scripts that will push off world and lock my computer trying to recover. Thought that was a TOS violation.

My suggestion is simple.

Mark on the map in RED where these characters reside.. just like a land sale.

They have the right to behave as they do, but are obligated to post their intentions.

This reminds me to clear my big boat so others can use my land when I'm not around.

It's Bad haveing hidden no fly zones I bought a helicopter and have had fun flying it but in real life I know the areas I am not allowed to fly in. I second life I have this week end been shot at and after flying into the last no fly zone "wall" have lost my helicopter. I am a member of a group and all our area is open for people to visit. Maybe Lindon should make an Island for all people who want to keep thier house plot of land or fantasy to them selfs and a second Island for the rest of the world I thought the idea of Linden is to make friends and be able to meet people not have a dark secluded private clubs. Anybody seeing my lost Helecopter please IM me. Alf Nagy.

Maybe you should quit demanding that landowners not exercise their rights to control access on their land.

Gavin - I'm all for minimap and map marking. I'm also for the option to increase/decrease ban line visibility - especially if you can choose 'while moving' and 'stationary' seperately. That way you can have a nice view regardless of them at home, but see them from far away when flying.

The banlines in RL are more visible from a distance?

Linden do actually have some pretty huge areas (at least 4 sims iirc) for vehicle sandboxes and such. You can fly around there as much as you want without requiring changes from anyone else. They haven't so far set aside any sims where we can go build houses and sit in our banlines being grumpy and antisocial.

BTW, no fly zones are something different from what you are hitting. No fly means you cannot fly as an avatar, you have to walk. What you are hitting is either a parcel you aren't allowed to enter, a parcel that is full or one that has object entry turned off.

The map idea posted above is a pretty good solution. I quite often have the minimap open just to avoid walking into unrezzed people or smashing into unrezzed buildings when flying. Unlike the full blown map, it takes less screen space and when not selected actually can be seen through. Putting markers on there should definately be a first step.

Ban lines don't prevent griefing or camping or sim attacks or grid attacks. And we've already been through this false dichotomy.

All they do is create an illusion of privacy, and screw with people's vehicles no matter how careful people try to be.

Yet far less than sim borders and the physics engine. They do provide a little privacy at least- I don't have to hear the peeper unless they shout.