No-fly zones are killing the fun

If a person doesnt want someone driving across their lawn, then no one should have the right to drive over their lawn. It leaves tire marks and ruins the grass. Nor should they be able to sit in someones living room and watch their tv without permission. Thus someone stating " I can do what I want and you cant stop me" is indeed pre-schoolerish as well. This topic is on no fly zones killing the fun. The adament 'stay out of my airspace' crowd is just one element that impedes the casual sightseer. If there is some specific reason where an aircraft would somehow infringe upon a landowners enjoyment of the game, then sure. blockade your prop. If its simply because, 'ITS MINE, ITS MINE" well thats simply a pre-schooler mindset. Has one the right to restrict airspace? The tools are there to do so, and the authorities wont interfere, so I guess so. But whats the point of doing so? ' OH MY GOD, A HOT AIR BALLOON!!!" I dont get it. I tend to map such air hazards and avoid them on the next trip. My big issue is with the full parcel zones that have recently began taking out aircraft. Harder to map by the sheer fact that they are increasing with frequency.

Can you imagine walking into a parcel and your prim hair (or what have you) comes off because the parcel is full? It's almost that ridiculous.

"No Fly" areas, while occassionally annoying, are hardly the worst of the problem. I recently tried using my shiny new Tie Fighter only to discover you can barely fly across any given Sim without running into a full parcel and ending up in some kind of strange limbo

Surely they can make some kind of grace period for people in vehicles! A vehicle that is being piloted should be considered as an attachment to that character. SOMETHING. As it is now, SL is a very vehicle-unfriendly Sim.

How does one do that? My land is almost totally surrounded by parcels that ban everyone. They have red sky fences that go up above the property and if you try flying through, you bounce off. It's become a nightmare. The land that currently permits a tiny fly through zone to my house is up for sale and I'm afraid the new owners might do the same. Any suggestions aside from buying the land next door? (I'm new so limited to how much I can buy for 30 days...I tried getting around this but there doesn't seem to be a way.)

Attachments vanish when the owner of them vanishes of the parcel, the same isn't true for vehicles and people will happily abandon them with not a second thought.

There are literally dozens of Linden-owned sims where you can fly with no restriction what so ever. There is no lack of public land where you can enjoy your vehicle without having to intrude on others.

No fly zones are parcels where the Fly button is disabled, what you're describing is an access restricted parcel (or you may be banned).

Have you talked to the owner at all yet? If you don't know who they are, right-click the land *past* the lines and pick "About Land". That should tell you the land owner, or in the case where it's a group, clicking the Info button next to the group will show you the group owner(s) (they're in bold).

Try the Resident Answer forum (/327/1.html) for that question .

Do you actually own land in RL?

If you did, you'd discover just how limited your property rights really are.

There are people on both sides of this issue who are capable of reasoned arguments, who understand that all rights are a tradeoff, and providing supporting evidence from SL and from the real world. There are also people who take an absolutist stance that they should have no limitations on whatever irrevocable "right" they believe they have.

Implying that everyone on the opposite side is taking such a stance is, amusingly enough, often a sign that the person involved is doing it themselves.

Isn't it amazing then that I'm not discussing RL property, but property on SL where I have bene given the right to keep anyone off my land? There is no right of passage except that defined by ban lines, tp home and eject, within SL. I am not discussing RL, but SL

There is no comparison here between the two. Where I do not have security orb or ban lines you can pass, unless I'm there and see you and decide to eject for whatever reason.

It doesn't matter how limited property rights in RL are because - gasp - it's not related to the situation in any way.

post 2: I was just pointing that out to them, Argent. To say one is childish is to say both are.

And how do people traveling at 300 m/s know where that is until they get llTeleportHome()ed?
How do they know where that is AFTER being llTeleportHome()ed?

I have said several times I don't use teleport home. Also - I'm not required to put up signs. And if you're travelling at 300 m/s you're gonna be long gone when the 10 second warning ends.

Learn to think, please.

Just because (specific) you don't use it doesn't mean someone else doesn't with no warning.

Ability.

You have been given an ability.

Not a right.

You wrote, and I quoted, and I'm quoting again: "The right to 'right of way' across private property does not exist RL."

Notice how that sentence ends.

If you didn't mean "RL", then you need to fix that typo.
Ability.

You have been given an ability.

Not a right.

I don't see why everything needs to be the same. Perhaps each continent could have a different configuration. Maybe Continent A can have bans up to X metres, and Continent B can have ban lines up to X+Y. Continent C, on the other hand, has a different set of rules entirely. Continents could be set to change gradually with property sales over time, perhaps, or just be new continents. Or maybe this is just a bad idea

/me like flying, choices, and variety

Even if they do, they need to detect you. You're travelling faster than a sim a second at 300 m/s. Don't think even a no warning will get you (but a ban line will).



That right doesn't exist rl either. It has absolutely no relevance even as a made up right in SL.

I've been given a right to keep others off my property if I like. Call it ab ability if you want, but no linden has ever restricted this 'ability' unless it traps a plot owner on all sides.. so I see it as a right.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/forestry/glossprp.pdf

See "easement" and "right-of-way."

No tresspassing signs questions:

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/sportsed/posting.html

See the dictionary

Also, see Wikipedia

Congratulations on proving me wrong about rl.

Now, though, for a hat trick, try to prove me wrong about land access and ban lines in SL? Since, as said before, RL has no impact on it.

While, yes, RL Land has little to no bearing on SL Land, people do expect the same kinds of rights.

LL created tools to enforce certain rights, such as the ability to keep general public off the land (Access Controlls) and to keep certain people off (Bans).

In the conception of SL there were also Right of Passage rights: you could fly over any piece of and, banned or otherwise at a certain height (200 meters I think).

However, as Second Life evolved and greifers found new ways to greif and people found new places they wanted to live (i.e. sky box) the tools to enforce landowning rights got stronger and Right of Passage rights got weaker. Bans now go up very high (is it infinite yet?) so that you could be banned from sky boxes as well. However, certain tools, "prevent object entry" break Right of Way almost completely. A parcel that has object entry denied does not show any indication as such and fliers run in to an invisible wall.

Also, security orbs, which can enforce landowning rights very well exactly how the owner wants them (say 20m around a section of air at 250 meters z), can also enforce them beyond the owner's jurisdiction, such as onto another person's property.

The problem is thus:
People who wish to be transient over someone else's land (Right of Passage, which can be revoked and should only be as such on an individual basis) because they wish to see what there is to see are encountering problems of being unable to figure out where they are not wanted ("invisible walls" or little/no-warning security scripts) and property owners have all the tools they want and could ever need (despite anything they might say to the contrary--new tools are really only created when there is an exploit to an existing tool).

Solution:
Make general access restictions applicable around any 50 m height of space, such that the owner can protect the ground OR their skybox: make the tool more powerful, but to a limited extent. They either get what they already have, or they can protect what they really want to protect and in so doing the Right of Passage-ers can see the wall coming.

Make No Object Entry appear in ban-line format. It is a ban in a sense, is it not? (Ban against moving objects).

Make ban lines more clearly visible. The fact that the disapear when you aren't moving confuses me, as well as only being visable within about 10 meters.


Do you have any issue with any of these Banking Laws?

I've said before putside of ban areas and security orbs, people can fly by. Of course, if I'm there, I might have some fun, but hey, its my land.



I find those fine with a few exceptions: let people protect a sky AND ground build with that 50m of z ban for each. This still leaves tons of room for flight.

Ban lines (and object entry) should be able to be chosen as far as visibiity, so people can turn seeing them off for views, or more visibility when travelling. Seperate menus for still and while in motion if possible. Some people want ban lines MORE visible, others LESS, this option allows for personalization.

Security orbs: a clear cut ban of anything under 10 seconds warning. Thats enough time to clear with most vehicles, and even 100 m with unaided av flight. While I can't say teleport home should be banned.. as it is a valid tool - push should be, its abuse. I personally use Eject.

Flying/driving for the sake of it is not what myself or most people that have an issue with this are interested in doing. Being able to fly to your destination rather than teleport is immersive and fun for a lot of people. I don't see how I'd be "intruding" on anyone by flying at 200m altitude at 300m/sec. Most people wouldn't even notice a ship passing by at that speed. And how is it any different from flying over a parcel without a vehicle? It's not! I just don't get some people's attitudes about vehicles in SL.

But this is all rather pointless really. There's always something that's either going to eject you from the vehicle and send you spinning into some void, some banline that's going to prevent you from passing, or some building that's going to suddenly rez in front of you.

Honestly, I don't see why they can't just have "open airspace" above a certain height. Basically, anything above 768m is open to the public and unprotectable. Anything or anyone up there is basically simulated by the server as a general unparceled "easement". Has to be avatars or physical vehicles, though.

As for the analogue to RL, you don't own the airspace above a certain height above your land. It's owned and regulated as a public property, and reserved as airspace for regulated vehicular travel.

So, basically, it solves all these sticky problems. You can't build above 768m (well, you can, but I am proposing that the simulation be modified so you can't). At or below 768m, you can ban, block objects, block access, set up security orbs, whatever. However, above 768m, it is treated just like public Governor Linden-owned land.

That way, people who fly can fly over it (yes, I realize you can't see the land below; it's not quit the same without terrain; petition for a above-768m terrain-mapping view), and property owners can't complain about trespassing.

Yeah, I probably missed some important points in trying to keep it simple. It's also 4:30AM, and reading how silly this argument has gotten prompted me to jump in just because.

On my sim I will buy-out or evict any resident that for ANY reason uses a ban line or disables scripts or object entry.

All that crap is RUDE and contrary to the community spirit of SL..

Ban-havior causes the anger in the griefers that we have to deal with occasionally.
"I pay the tier" is not valid, it's a cop out for some paranoidal issue.

Its a perfectly valid reason. What YOU are saying here is the cop out to force YOUR opinions on others. On your sim, thats fine. But as a general point - You are NO more right to me about how I use my land. Except I PAY THE TEIR. When YOU pay it you have the right to do as you wish.

Its only contrary to YOUR view of the community spirit of SL. MY view of the community spirit includes peoples private spaces. There are also tons of reasons for no scripts, no object entry, and ban lines. You're as bad as others make some of my comments out to be.

And frankly, your behavior and comment here make is causing anger, making me want to greif your sim. Get a grip. Respect people's private spaces and land rights. Shut up.

Your one post did more to damage the right of way arguments than anything I could ever post.

I've been reading this thread and until now have resisted the urge to comment. You're quite the head case, Banking Laws. If you're around and someone innocently flies over your land, you "might have some fun." And you refuse to acknowledge that anyone might (or should) have some passage rights to balance your ownership rights, but then you have the gall to accuse others of "forcing their opinions." And now you threaten to grief the sim of someone who dares to disagree with you.

Sounds to me like *you* are the one who needs to "get a grip." From your comments in this thread I honestly have no idea why you're in SL in the first place. If everyone else believed what you do, and followed your practices, you'd have absolutely no where to go and nothing to do in SL but sit in your own little fortified space. What you REALLY need is a private sim, completely disconnected from the grid that you can sit in by yourself. On the other hand, my strong suspicion is that you're terribly two-faced about this all and enjoy the pleasures of going to *others* land and enjoying the access they've granted you to partake of that community spirit - access that of course you'd *never* grant them in return!

**IF** you're not being hypocritical about this, then you should NEVER be on any other land except yours and Linden-owned public land, because all the rest of the land is privately owned, just like yours, and if you don't believe in granting *any* public access whatsoever, than partaking of that access granted to you by others is simply hypocritical and two-faced.

It would be nice to have varying "security" levels around the grid so that no one would attempt to fly in paranoia zones, and people with the need to keep everyone out could have their choice, too.

Of course, the nicest thing would be to have a little individual area (maybe just for Premium members) that one teleports to, and which doesn't connect to anything - like a virtual privacy cavern. Then perhaps we could have no generalised bans at all.

I think banking laws was responding to this, rather than threatening any griefing:


Griefers exist with or without banlines, banlines just help to make sure you aren't affected by them