No-fly zones are killing the fun

We seem to have two groups here. The:

Psychotic xenophobes who hate everyone and everything and want those damn kids to get off their virtual lawn,

and

Everyone else.


So, a solution that wil please everybody. Replace the ban lines with black walls that can't be alt-cammed through. (Or just replace the parcel with a black prim.) This will also save the banned from having to render prims they can't actually interact with.

That way, everyone's happy! Banking Laws won't have communists looking in at him through the ban lines with their mind control beams, and the forbidden zones will be visible to all, and easily avoided when driving a vehicle.

Don't forget to print them on the minimap too.

That's not technically possible.
That would work, or replace every object and avatar on the parcel with a black prim the size of that object's bounding box, so the client can't see them even if you've hacked it. Or just not download them at all. And make the ban-lines visible to everyone (maybe you get white or green ban lines if you're allowed through) and visible on the minimap.

Sure it is. You can't Alt-Cam through the ground, can you? Shouldn't be a problem to use the same or similar algorithm to prevent camera entry inside a black wall, either.

Yes, actually, you can. Just "Disable camera constraints" in the Client menu.

The camera is controlled by the client.

The *open source* client.

As in, we all have the source code to let us bypass any restrictions in it.

Ooo interesting. I didn't know that could bypass the ground constraint.

..and yeah, the open source thing allows anything to be gotten around. However, very very few people are going to be able to do that on their own, and even fewer are going to want to trust any 3rd-party compilation of said modified source.

Yeah, more and more, it looks like what has to be done is the contents of a "private" parcel just need to not be sent to the client, but as for keeping people out, there needs to be some visible-at-a-distance indication at all affected heights of the restriction. Also, there should be an enforced airspace above a certain height at which entry control is not allowed. Right now, that effectively would have to be at or above 768m, which doesn't give much of a view for flying purposes.

They won't have to. The "ignore camera constraints" option is already there. I'm talking about what would happen if Linden Labs removed that option in some kind of attempt at enforcing client-side restrictions again.

The bottom line is, whatever is done has to be done on the server.

Yep. Me too. Obviously, the point is only valid if they removed that capability.

This would be a very bad move. Disabling camera constraints is great for maintenance: splitting or joining larges parcels, hunting objects lost underground or ending at <0,0,0> (it's crazy how much junk lies at coordinates <0,0,0> especially if the owner of the land has raised ban lines. Useful also to track griefers when you have to deal with. And, yes, camera shopping when lag makes your av bump all around and sink underground.

I'm not exactly sure how this tread got from no fly zones to ban lines but anyway...

The simplest fix LL could make to help every one deal with ban lines is to make ban lines visible from the same distance as the other things in the world. As it is ban lines can surprise you even when you are on foot.

They used to be visible from a greater distance, and that distance was reduced because of the outcry over ugly ban lines.

They REALLY need to be visible on the minimap.

I agree and I don't think it would be that hard to do. It would be nice if you could do overlays (similar to what Sim City had) where you could have say one that's no overlay, one that's color coded by land sale status (not for sale, auction, for sale... etc) and/or have one that was color coded by ban type (no payment info banned, no pay info used banned, everybody general banned (your not on the access list), everyone general banned (you are on the access list), you are specifically banned. It would be even nicer to have these on the main map for either the parcel or the sim or the island since you can be banned globally from those as well.

Maybe the distance ban lines are visible should be configurable in the preferences. That way if you don't want to see them you can set the distance low. But if you need a little warning before you run headlong into one you can set the distance higher.

And you're right, they should be on the minimap too. Maybe you can have a bunch of options for viewing them like in Pegasus' suggestion.

The problem is that you *really* need to have them visible well beyond draw distance for that.

I also love how they flicker in and out of existence when you're standing right next to them.

Why are you not entitled to right of way? Because some rights should never be infringed upon, the right to exclude others from property you own is one of those rights. The right to private property is just as much of a human right as the right to free speech, the right to worship the God of your choice, and the right to defend your life and family.

Of course in most of the world, these rights are trampled upon by those who support the utilitarian stance, "From each.............to each" , so let us keep SL truely free!

That right doesn't exist in RL, Chris.

Sorry but I can restrict access to my property to who ever I want. Unless it is a govenment employee with a warrant signed by a judge or chasing a fleeing suspect.

The fact that so called "public accomadations" have their rights restricted is a moral wrong. Private property is one of the most basic of all human rights.

If you step foot on my property without my permission, first you have to deal with the dog and then you have to deal with me.

Correct. The right to 'right of way' across private property does not exist RL.

You folks calling up the ghost of Robert Heinlein...you understand you don't actually "own" land in SL, right? You're renting it. Tier payments are rental payments; you're renting space on LL's server farm. Think you actually own it? Insist on seeing a warrant before a Linden enters your parcel. When a sim is restarted the process that starts it can start on any one of a number of different servers. Tell them you want the land you own to start up in the same memory space of the same server each time 'cause man you own that piece of storage. You can try pulling a Ruby Ridge on the Lindens...see where it gets you.

"Well, what's that huge payment I made when I "bought" my land?!?" Call it a stewardship deed, note, ticket, whatever. You bought a seat at the concert, chuckles. You paid good money for that ticket, dernit, and no one can take that little piece of paper away from you. True enough, but that doesn't mean you now "own" that seat at the amphitheater. And yikes...you still find you're expected to allow people to cross your sacred seat space to get to their own seats. "O, the humanity...I'm calling Free Talk Live right now!"

Even keeping the illusion of SL land alive the ancient laws that proclaimed your land ownership goes from the deepest earth to the highest heavens is gone, most likely before you were even born. It disappeared the moment modern society starting actually using the heavens on a regular basis. Private property is important, but even in meatspace it doesn't keep me from flying my plane over your turf.

This is kinda interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_rights

As is this: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_136.html

And this: http://home.netvista.net/hpb/cases/causby-1.html

What about compensation for your trouble and easement on the mainland? I would think that the compensation is already built in to your tier payment. After all, the Lindens do offer an option that includes total privacy of the kind you'd prefer to assume. It's called an island sim and costs significantly more to rent than your average mainland parcel. And yes you'd still only be renting that, as well.

Living on the mainland involves measures of compromise on both sides of this equation, folks. We agree not to rez our crazy flying machines anywhere we want or come in and lick all the food in your fridge, and you agree to watch the daisies while we fly over your love castle unbruised on route to a far more interesting destination.

Ooops, guess they don't agree, you just hit a banline

You want to fly over, that's fine, just do it above 65m. You wont have any problems and you don't have to force any changes on the rest of the population.

So I CAN lick all of the food in their fridge? YES!

Hey, I'm all for having private spaces in SL and totally understand why others would have that need. 50m ban line ceiling seem like a very reasonable compromise to me...as long as it works as advertised. It keeps interesting builds and destinations in view of my wacky flying machines while at the same time keeps me from eying your beautiful slave girl too closely.

The thing is, though, SL is an inherently social space. It is far easier to participate as a member of the community than to achieve solitude or separateness. The ban lines and security orbs and orbiters...they're all acts of swimming upstream. It will always take more work to achieve solitude in SL, and the barbarians will always be at the gates.

The good news for those wanting true privacy in a 3d virtual environment is there are projects out there like OpenSim coming down the pike that will enable you to run an estate on your own hardware in true isolation from the SL grid. O, happy day!

Perhaps a way for the sim to know that an object is a vehicle passing through could be used to please both sides though.

If there was a way to allow planes to pass overhead which would not come under normal object entry rules (which allow anyone to move junk onto your land) I wouldn't mind anyone flying over. In return, those passing planes/helicopters/x-wings/UFOs would not have their sound effects broadcast to everyone in the area and would not be able to drop below a certain height (both of which would ruin land for anyone under a popular flight path).
Passing vehicles could also then not trigger a massive burst in the prim count (as they are marked as vehicles which are not rooted in the parcel), and those flying wouldn't get any messages about the parcel being full.

BTW, I'm not concerned about privacy (there really isn't any), my RL/SL missus is a stripper on SL anyway

They want to fly above the group access/white list access only? Go ahead. I've got a short ranged security orb on the skybox...

Want to remove the banlines? I'll jack it up to 96m range for the skybox and get one for the ground while I'm at it. You just cut even MORE space off for yourself.

I don't want uninvited people on my land. I don't want vehicles withing the banned area. Period.

I pay the teir. I pay for the right to keep you off.

I don't have to compromise. I'm already following TOS. You do NOT have a right to be on my property, quit acting so entitled. You don't pay any of the costs so have no inherent right to anything.

Ive flown over plenty of banlines. And bounced off a few of the ones installed by whining paranoid landowners spouting that selfish pre-schooler line, " ITS MINE, ITS MINE". But its those damned ' PARCEL FULL' whammys that blow you out of the sky that have made air travel a complete nuisance.

How is 'its mine, its mine' any more preschoolerish than 'I can go anywhere I want and you can't stop me' ?