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1L Land Sales...

Neurosis Sin
Registered User
Join date: 5 Sep 2006
Posts: 24
09-08-2006 22:12
From: Svar Beckersted
My father found $20,000 in cash in the 1920s outside the local bank that a local farmer had dropped on his way to buy more land for his farm. Unfortunately for my father he didn't believe in the precept being advanced by land swoopers and their defenders. He returned the money to the banker who in turn returned it to the very grateful farmer. For those of you who indulge in the practice of land swooping and those who defend it please don't move into my neighborhoor you will not be welcomed.



Why would I move into your neighborhood, When I can live in a much nicer one from all the money I would make from the evil deeds....?

btw, I've never done this... dont care if u believe that i really dont.
Wrestling Hulka
Registered User
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 114
09-08-2006 23:00
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow
OK, I've brought this up before, I think I'll bring it up again....

Suppose someone sets their land for (Insert price here) for sale to ANYONE.

OK, now suppose someone buys it.

Suppose the person who sold it then realizes that they made a mistake and they didn't intend to sell the land to just ANYONE.

Now....I know this may be a stretch for some people, but suppose the person who buys it, bought it because it was offered publically for sale to ANYONE. Not because they had any "nefarious" plans to "screw" the seller over, or because they are bad, or for any other reason than that they saw it for sale on the land list and bought it.

And lets just say...for fun....the person who bought the land for whatever price had to increase their tier to buy it.

For the sake of argument, lets say they went from a $75/month tier payment to a $125 tier payment.

Now lets say, the seller comes back and says...I know I marked it for sale at that price to ANYONE...but I didn't intend for YOU to buy it. Since it was a mistake I fully expect you to sell me back the land at the price you paid.

Lets just say, theat if the buyer does NOT give it back, they will be assumed to be "dishonest" and "not a nice person". In fact their moral character may be publicly impugned on the forums, and they may even be harassed in-world. Wow.

For buying a plot of land and agreeing to PAY not only the seller, but Linden Labs as well.

People need to realize that if they make a mistake, it is THEIR mistake, and by asking someone else (in this case the buyer) to rectify the seller's mistake, they might be asking a stranger to basically shell out $50 US (in the example given) to take care of their mistake.

Bottom line, it is not fair to expect buyers to take a real US $$$ financial hit if a seller did not pay attention and may have sold their land for a price they didn't like. Even if it was a mistake.

Linden Labs makes money off tier, and I am sure they like it this way. I highly doubt that if a buyer bought land that was sold by mistake, and then returns that land, that Linden is going to knock the tier increase off their bill because they were a good citizen in the eyes of the mistaken seller.

If someone has any other data that shows that LL will refund tier in the case of a mistaken sale, please feel free to post it here and refute me. I'd love to know.


Great post.... I posted this in another forum and it's worth posting in this thread...


I think the quality of the UI does mater because in the current version you must select who you want to sell to, whether that's anyone or a fellow SLer. I'm not sure what more improvements there can be...

I'm clearly in the land business to make a profit. I only buy land that is listed publically, unless me and the seller have other arrangements. I cannot double think purchasing land because then a like-minded competitor will buy the parcel. I listen to every case and make my decision regarding their responses and actions. If at anytime I get pressure from a third party (edit: whether it's live helper or another resident) to sell the land back, I keep the land. These are the rules that I have personally made for myself when dealing with land purchases. If you disagree with a decision I've made I welcome the feedback, but I stand firm with every land purchase I've made.

I find them (edit: posts about my actions) amusing because people are trying to impose their own morals value on someone else, even though we all agree that what I do is not a crime.

And yes, I've returned land, countless times. You can hate me, want to orbit me to the SL hell above... it doesn't matter. I won't change my position unless Linden decides that buying land is wrong. Which for the forseable future this seems very unlikely.
Wrestling Hulka
Registered User
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 114
09-08-2006 23:02
From: mcgeeb Gupte
Ok this is just my opinion, but Land for Sale for 1L is 99% of the time a mistake.


Prove that...


From: someone
If the person is standing on the land, at least ask politely. What is wrong with that?


See my post above...


From: someone
Or are we bypassing that because it is a good deal (instant profit) and know for a fact the person will say something like I'm selling it to my alt or friend. That is my real issue here.


You should be using the "sell to individual" feature instead of the "sell to anyone".
Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
09-09-2006 02:01
From: Wrestling Hulka
Prove that...



it was proved in my eyes when it happened to my friend, by your mate Jimbo.. we said CLEARY "that land was not meant for sale, give it back"

we got stonewalled... what a prick..

people who make other peoples mistakes their business like you lot should be out on their ass... new world has no room for thievs and scallywags.
_____________________
no u!
mcgeeb Gupte
Jolie Femme @}-,-'-,---
Join date: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,152
09-09-2006 02:10
From: Wrestling Hulka
Prove that...




See my post above...




You should be using the "sell to individual" feature instead of the "sell to anyone".


So you are saying that if you TP to the land for sale and see the landowner there you ask why they are selling for so cheap?? I don't think so because the response will be, no its not for sale or a mistake and you don't care.

So today someone tells me that they bought two items by accident and it was copy only. Should I just say all says are final?? No I paid them their money back for the extra one they bought. LL doesn't need to make rules for being ethical here.

Same thing with selling freebies that are not meant for selling for Lindens. LL will not do anything about that either. It is still unethical and wrong.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-09-2006 02:40
From: Wrestling Hulka
If at anytime I get pressure from a third party (edit: whether it's live helper or another resident) to sell the land back, I keep the land.


Extortion is a TOS violation. Defamation of another resident is also a TOS violation.

You just admitted to both. I have also provided LL with evidence of you doing these in the past.

Then there is the issue of creating disturbances, using land tools to grief competitors, using annoying objects to grief victims, using listening devices and then ARing victims for cussing you out and buying land next to your accusers to build grief walls and be annoying.

Griefers like to think they are clever, but in reality they are mentally and morally deficient.

Keep it up, LL will fix your little red wagon.
_____________________
Land Rush
Registered User
Join date: 9 Aug 2006
Posts: 11
09-09-2006 10:58
From: Weedy Herbst
Extortion is a TOS violation. Defamation of another resident is also a TOS violation.

You just admitted to both. I have also provided LL with evidence of you doing these in the past.

Then there is the issue of creating disturbances, using land tools to grief competitors, using annoying objects to grief victims, using listening devices and then ARing victims for cussing you out and buying land next to your accusers to build grief walls and be annoying.

Griefers like to think they are clever, but in reality they are mentally and morally deficient.

Keep it up, LL will fix your little red wagon.


How eactly is that extortion? I just don't think third parties have a right to minse with my personal transactions. As soon as a third party comes into the discussion I cut all lines of communication.

Stop accusing me of things that are clearly not true and go troll another thread. Thanks :)


edit: using an alt because my account has been locked.
Ketra Saarinen
Whitelock 'Yena-gal
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 676
09-09-2006 11:27
From: Weedy Herbst
Extortion is a TOS violation. Defamation of another resident is also a TOS violation.


Umm.. I think you have that backwards..

"Give me that land back that I set to Sell to Anyone."
"No."
Is *not* extortion. If he doesn't want to sell to someone, he doesn't have to. The person selling the land shouldn't have chosen Sell to Anyone.

"Give me that land back that I set to Sell to Anyone, or I'll report you for a TOS violation and try to get your banned." *IS* extortion.

As the new land sale tools were explained by the Lindens, the person selling the land *MUST* set either Sell to Individual or Sell to Anyone. If they choose Sell to Anyone, they they shouldn't be surprised if just anyone pops in to buy it.
_____________________
From: Doctor Who
J: You've been to the Factories?
DW: Once
J: Well they're gone now, destroyed. Main reactor went critical, vaporized the lot.
DW: Like I said: Once. There's a banana grove there now. I like bananas. Bananas are good.


From: Clutch, 10001110101
Robot Lords of Tokyo, smile, Taste Kittens!
Land Rush
Registered User
Join date: 9 Aug 2006
Posts: 11
09-09-2006 13:08
From: Ketra Saarinen
Umm.. I think you have that backwards..

"Give me that land back that I set to Sell to Anyone."
"No."
Is *not* extortion. If he doesn't want to sell to someone, he doesn't have to. The person selling the land shouldn't have chosen Sell to Anyone.

"Give me that land back that I set to Sell to Anyone, or I'll report you for a TOS violation and try to get your banned." *IS* extortion.

As the new land sale tools were explained by the Lindens, the person selling the land *MUST* set either Sell to Individual or Sell to Anyone. If they choose Sell to Anyone, they they shouldn't be surprised if just anyone pops in to buy it.


Ketra, you got it. But don't let Weedy bother you, just ignore her like I do.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-09-2006 15:57
From: Ketra Saarinen
Umm.. I think you have that backwards..

"Give me that land back that I set to Sell to Anyone."
"No."
Is *not* extortion. If he doesn't want to sell to someone, he doesn't have to. The person selling the land shouldn't have chosen Sell to Anyone.

"Give me that land back that I set to Sell to Anyone, or I'll report you for a TOS violation and try to get your banned." *IS* extortion.

As the new land sale tools were explained by the Lindens, the person selling the land *MUST* set either Sell to Individual or Sell to Anyone. If they choose Sell to Anyone, they they shouldn't be surprised if just anyone pops in to buy it.


Extortion is this guys middle name.

I have heard him say "She must leave the sim now, or I keep the land." which Wrestling openly admits to doing in this post, in his own words. Likewise, he will set land he bought for a dollar to the previous owner for an outrageous price. Both are attempts at extortion...plain and simple. He also creates disturbances, rezzes obnoxious scripted items and plants listening devices. He goes out of his way to be annoying.

I have been in Second Life for two years, doing business in good faith. I have seen alot of scoundrels come and go, but never have I seen the likes of Wrestling in such a short period of time, cause so much grief to residents. He can bash me all day for all I care, because I am the one advocating for the better of the community, not him. The more he does it, the worse he looks. He does this to himself, I merely observe it......often.

Linden Lab acted swiftly to fix the land tools once this became epidemic. His behavior is hardly welcomed and is a fool to think his actions go un-noticed.
_____________________
mcgeeb Gupte
Jolie Femme @}-,-'-,---
Join date: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,152
09-09-2006 16:52
From: Weedy Herbst
Extortion is this guys middle name.

I have heard him say "She must leave the sim now, or I keep the land." which Wrestling openly admits to doing in this post, in his own words. Likewise, he will set land he bought for a dollar to the previous owner for an outrageous price. Both are attempts at extortion...plain and simple. He also creates disturbances, rezzes obnoxious scripted items and plants listening devices. He goes out of his way to be annoying.

I have been in Second Life for two years, doing business in good faith. I have seen alot of scoundrels come and go, but never have I seen the likes of Wrestling in such a short period of time, cause so much grief to residents. He can bash me all day for all I care, because I am the one advocating for the better of the community, not him. The more he does it, the worse he looks. He does this to himself, I merely observe it......often.

Linden Lab acted swiftly to fix the land tools once this became epidemic. His behavior is hardly welcomed and is a fool to think his actions go un-noticed.


Agreed,

He is one of the worst out there and then openly admits his actions saying that it is ok to do.
Lisa Su
Registered User
Join date: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 3
09-09-2006 16:58
I can't wait for the forums to be closed so that these threads go away.

Weedy is bitching because Hulka is a competitor plain and peanuts.
Vengence Opus
tastes like chicken legs
Join date: 11 May 2006
Posts: 71
09-09-2006 17:08
From: Wrestling Hulka

I find them (edit: posts about my actions) amusing because people are trying to impose their own morals value on someone else, even though we all agree that what I do is not a crime.



Hehehe.

WWJD?

LOL

You know.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-09-2006 17:13
From: Lisa Su
I can't wait for the forums to be closed so that these threads go away.

Weedy is bitching because Hulka is a competitor plain and peanuts.


And you are....?

Poor attempt at an alt shill.
_____________________
mcgeeb Gupte
Jolie Femme @}-,-'-,---
Join date: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,152
09-09-2006 17:47
From: Lisa Su
I can't wait for the forums to be closed so that these threads go away.

Weedy is bitching because Hulka is a competitor plain and peanuts.


Sorry there are many more forums. Check out SecondCitizen. There is a post on this very topic in there.
Ketra Saarinen
Whitelock 'Yena-gal
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 676
09-09-2006 17:49
From: Weedy Herbst
Extortion is this guys middle name.

I have heard him say "She must leave the sim now, or I keep the land." which Wrestling openly admits to doing in this post, in his own words. Likewise, he will set land he bought for a dollar to the previous owner for an outrageous price. Both are attempts at extortion...plain and simple. He also creates disturbances, rezzes obnoxious scripted items and plants listening devices. He goes out of his way to be annoying.

I have been in Second Life for two years, doing business in good faith. I have seen alot of scoundrels come and go, but never have I seen the likes of Wrestling in such a short period of time, cause so much grief to residents. He can bash me all day for all I care, because I am the one advocating for the better of the community, not him. The more he does it, the worse he looks. He does this to himself, I merely observe it......often.

Linden Lab acted swiftly to fix the land tools once this became epidemic. His behavior is hardly welcomed and is a fool to think his actions go un-noticed.


Is he possibly inconsiderate? Yes.

Is what he's doing against the rules or TOS? No.

The people who sell their land have to confirm it at least twice under the old system, and even more time under the new (4 or more). At each step they have to make a CONCIOUS DECISION of how the want to sell their land. Under the current system, these people have CHOSEN to select Sell to Anyone over Sell to an Individual. They *SET* the land sale so that it could be sold to *ANYONE.* I'm really having trouble seeing how this is anyone else's fault but their own.

So they set the land to sell to *ANYONE* guess what? Anyone can appear and buy the land. WH is one of these anyones, but not the only one. If their land is so important, wouldn't they want to be very sure that their land sale is as secure and controlled as possible? Seems to me that they just don't find their land important.

"She must leave the sim now, or I keep the land." is not extortion. As the owner of the land in question and not being inclined to sell, he can dictate the terms of the negotiation.

[Likewise, he will set land he bought for a dollar to the previous owner for an outrageous price.] This is not extortion either. This is just being rude. He doesn't HAVE to sell it back because the other person *IGNORED* all the warnings and confirmations and set the land to sell to *EVERYONE*.

Look, I agree that the behaviour of land swoopers is in bad taste and against common courtesy. However, what they do is NOT illegal. It is NOT against the TOS. Neither WH nor LL are responsible to hand-hold every land seller. Every single person in SL should be and Adult. Is is EVERY persons's responsibility to act like an adult and think for themselves. Noone is entitled special treatment.

A while ago, I was driving to a friend's place in the winter. The highway was about 4 inches deep in snow. I entered a rest area to take a break and went up the ramp WAY too fast. I was tired and wasn't thinking straight. At the end of the ramp, the roadway split with an curb in the middle. I couldn't make the turn and slammed my car sideways against the curb. You know what I said? "F***! I'M A F***ING IDIOT!" I did NOT however, start blaming the state for putting the curb there. Nor did I say they should put up signs reminding people to drive slowly in the snow. I didn't blame the maker of the car, or of the tires. I blamed myself because *I* was the one that CHOSE to ignore the conditions. I was the one that chose to ignore my speed, and let myself get into a mental state where I could screw up like that.

People need to take some responsibility for themselves.
_____________________
From: Doctor Who
J: You've been to the Factories?
DW: Once
J: Well they're gone now, destroyed. Main reactor went critical, vaporized the lot.
DW: Like I said: Once. There's a banana grove there now. I like bananas. Bananas are good.


From: Clutch, 10001110101
Robot Lords of Tokyo, smile, Taste Kittens!
Lyekahgood Nighbor
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
09-09-2006 18:29
WORD!
lol.

damn this horse is busted.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-09-2006 18:32
From: Ketra Saarinen
People need to take some responsibility for themselves.


Agreed, but this should include the land swoopers. They attack legitimate business people, they cause grief to residents and they resort to griefing in numerous ways, so I take exception to your point that they are within the rules. They are not. I have seen this guy in action, numerous times. Extortion, griefing, snooping and rezzing annoying objects are not within the rules. Grief walls, shouting objects, creating disturbances to name a few. If he shut the fuck up and didn't get in people's faces, he might have a case, but he doesn't because not only does he steal your land, he griefs his victims and defames his opponents with libelous commentary. He and Dragon even went so far as to join a group I belong to, for the sole purpose of griefing me about a real life issue. Pathetic behavior.

They are nothing but a bunch of punk gangster racketeers, who use the rules to screw people, harrass people and profit from greed.....little else.
_____________________
Ketra Saarinen
Whitelock 'Yena-gal
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 676
09-09-2006 19:56
From: Lyekahgood Nighbor
WORD!
lol.

damn this horse is busted.


Greasy smear is more likely. :)
_____________________
From: Doctor Who
J: You've been to the Factories?
DW: Once
J: Well they're gone now, destroyed. Main reactor went critical, vaporized the lot.
DW: Like I said: Once. There's a banana grove there now. I like bananas. Bananas are good.


From: Clutch, 10001110101
Robot Lords of Tokyo, smile, Taste Kittens!
Ketra Saarinen
Whitelock 'Yena-gal
Join date: 1 Feb 2006
Posts: 676
09-09-2006 20:03
From: Weedy Herbst
Agreed, but this should include the land swoopers. They attack legitimate business people, they cause grief to residents and they resort to griefing in numerous ways, so I take exception to your point that they are within the rules. They are not. I have seen this guy in action, numerous times. Extortion, griefing, snooping and rezzing annoying objects are not within the rules. Grief walls, shouting objects, creating disturbances to name a few. If he shut the fuck up and didn't get in people's faces, he might have a case, but he doesn't because not only does he steal your land, he griefs his victims and defames his opponents with libelous commentary. He and Dragon even went so far as to join a group I belong to, for the sole purpose of griefing me about a real life issue. Pathetic behavior.

They are nothing but a bunch of punk gangster racketeers, who use the rules to screw people, harrass people and profit from greed.....little else.


I'm not disputing that "Extortion, griefing, snooping and rezzing annoying objects" is against the rules. And if he does that, then yes, he should be ARed. But he did not "steal" anyone's land. THAT is the point that I'm making. Buying land and reselling it is not against the rules. And much as it sucks, being rude @$$hole isn't against the rules either.
_____________________
From: Doctor Who
J: You've been to the Factories?
DW: Once
J: Well they're gone now, destroyed. Main reactor went critical, vaporized the lot.
DW: Like I said: Once. There's a banana grove there now. I like bananas. Bananas are good.


From: Clutch, 10001110101
Robot Lords of Tokyo, smile, Taste Kittens!
Lisa Su
Registered User
Join date: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 3
09-10-2006 01:18
From: Weedy Herbst
Agreed, but this should include the land swoopers. They attack legitimate business people, they cause grief to residents and they resort to griefing in numerous ways, so I take exception to your point that they are within the rules. They are not. I have seen this guy in action, numerous times. Extortion, griefing, snooping and rezzing annoying objects are not within the rules. Grief walls, shouting objects, creating disturbances to name a few. If he shut the fuck up and didn't get in people's faces, he might have a case, but he doesn't because not only does he steal your land, he griefs his victims and defames his opponents with libelous commentary. He and Dragon even went so far as to join a group I belong to, for the sole purpose of griefing me about a real life issue. Pathetic behavior.

They are nothing but a bunch of punk gangster racketeers, who use the rules to screw people, harrass people and profit from greed.....little else.


Sounds like your entire post was one huge attack rant. You should take your own advice.
mcgeeb Gupte
Jolie Femme @}-,-'-,---
Join date: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,152
09-10-2006 05:03
From: Lisa Su
Sounds like your entire post was one huge attack rant. You should take your own advice.



I must shake my head at this, the guy takes people's land out from under them!!! Weedy is correct. It's been documentated many times in the forums, but you've only been around say a month so how would you know. The guy makes me sick. The only reason LL will not get involved is because they stay out of everything including texture theft. Oh wait, because LL doesn't do anything about texture theft that is ok too right!!!!!!
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
09-10-2006 06:10
If people paid attention and took responsibility land swoopers wouldn't exist.


Doing something for the first time? Even more reason to pay attention and read.

The only ones to blame are the morons setting land to 1 linden.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-10-2006 06:20
From: Lisa Su
Sounds like your entire post was one huge attack rant. You should take your own advice.


Shilling with alts, fails miserably around here.

Thanks for keeping this thread bumped though, because it will be here for all to see for a very long time, once they become read only.
_____________________
Land Rush
Registered User
Join date: 9 Aug 2006
Posts: 11
09-10-2006 12:12
(For historical purposes I am Wrestling Hulka's alt. My AV is still in Security Breech password hell).


Interesting enough I caught someone swooping last night. Her name ryhmes with beady. My friends set a huge chunk of land for 2399, when they meant to sell at 24K. This person, who's first name rhymes with greedy marked the property up to 4.9 and teleported out without asking questions. My friends were distraut and didn't know what to do. Luckily for them I teleported to buy the property. They explained the whole situation and I assisted them. Red faced and now a HUGE hypocrit the person in question... who's name suspiciously ryhmes with tweedy came back and gave my friend a refund. This land baron, who thinks she has the hand of God, should stop passing judgement... I caught her doing the same EXACT thing she accuses of me.

I wonder if she'll deny this case... because like she says, I have the transactions data to prove.
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