Anshe's land for sale

I'm just curious, from a purely theoretical standpoint, what it would take to push each auction to the point where it wouldn't be worth reselling, since there wouldn't be any profit. Anyone thinking I'm trying to do this for real is sadly mistaken. Its just a question that caught my curiosity.

if that was your question - not much at all. bid about 5-10% higher and you will win most of the plots. if all end users of land were on the auctions, land traders would no longer be active on the auctions and only be active as in world speculators, traders, and arbitrageurs. end users will always win the auction unless the land trader bidding is stupid.

i don't see many end users ever moving to the auctions.
- most players want what they want when they want it. they like to fly about and buy their land immediately.
- with the size of the world as it is, many players like to simply contact a few traders and request a certain kind of land, which the trader then tries to hunt down for them.
- buying land from land traders/merchants allows a flexibility in parcel shapes and sizes, that is unavailable from linden lab directly.
- i can not convince many of my own inworld friends to participate in the auctions for better deals because they feel auctions are a hassle.

LL realizes this. Land traders realize this. Land buyers realize this. It's the remaing few of you to realize this.

btw, zugzug, i contest your defintion. as there is an observed price difference of land on the auction market and in the inworld market, this activity is in the spirit or arbitrage. but as in real world arbitrage, because of time differentials, there is very often an element of risk involved.

Brilliant question. I've heard that the profit margins are quite slim. I imagine something such as a readjustment of the land-tier fees or a progressive capital gains tax on land sales in a month would take care of it.

Remember, the problem isn't the land barons rather it is the system. Currently due to massively regressive land-tier fees, group discounts, and auctions of large land blocks, it makes inserting oneself as a middleman into the land distribution process profitable. A slight modification of any of those factors could make reselling auctioned land unprofitable.

Personally, I believe it is only a matter of time. The Lindens sent a clear message when they dumped all that snow-sim land into the game at once a few months ago. In a normal market that would have crushed most land speculators, however, due to the huge regressive land-tier subsidy, land barons can still survive. That's just how skewed the system is in their favor! (I was a bit surprised when Anshe mocked the dumping of land into the market in her interview with Cristiano). I think it's only a matter of time until a real systemic change is implemented that ends this exploitation of the system and residents of SL.

~Ulrika~

That's because most land is sold in large parcels that are beyond the RL means for users. You said this yourself last night when we talked in person. Because this land is beyond most users means it sells for 20% less per square meter than small land. The land barons snap it up, divide it, and then jack up the price.

The solution is to simply auction off small parcels until their auction price per square meter matches that of large blocks of land. It is simply a change in the system that is required.

I knew you would, which is why I lifted the first two paragraphs directly from an economics textbook adding on a third to make my point. You contest its definition because it doesn't support your needs not because it's invalid.

I think it's time that SL land speculators faced real risk just like land speculators do in RL. No more easy profit. We need to seek equilibrium between large and small parcels of land in the auctions and address the regressive tier system by regulating or progressively taxing capital gains on land sales.

~Ulrika~

land speculators in real life do this very same thing.

they buy large swaths of undevelop land that for cheap. they subdivide it, or change it's zoning. suddenly it's worth >100% more. this process can often take a few years to pass through municipal appeals but a 100% return is a sweet deal on a single piece of undeveloped property that is taxed very low.

arbitrage n.



as in real life there is a time delay. sometimes the sale is within hours or minutes if the price differential was high enough to sell quickly

btw, we are not trading "Land." we are trading server resources.

land speculators in real life do this very same thing.

they buy large swaths of undevelop land that for cheap. they subdivide it, or change it's zoning. suddenly it's worth >100% more. this process can often take a few years to pass through municipal appeals but a 100% return is a sweet deal on a single piece of undeveloped property that is taxed very low.

arbitrage n.



that is the source i was using. as in real life there is a time delay. sometimes the sale is within hours or minutes if the price differential was high enough to sell quickly

btw, we are not trading "Land." we are trading server resources.

You seem to be quite keen on justifying behavior based on its existence in RL. Then you shouldn't have an objection to taxation and arbitrage regulation as is done in RL either. Let's not be selective about applying RL equivalents.

Your gyrations to avoid the topic of the regressive tier fees and their effect on your business is telling. This is because like Anshe, you too Jauani, are profiting from the system as a land baron and seek to maintain the status quo for your own personal gain. This is unethical. You, as an ideological supporter of a free market system, should strive for equal access for all members not just those with RL buying power. However you don't because your are an exploiter of a skewed artificial system that is in need of repair.

Get out of the land-baron business and come back to the discussion unbiased.

~Ulrika~

the only way auctionable land will be sustainably unprofitable was if players were interested in participating in the auctions. they are not, for the inconvenience it entails.

like i mentioned last night - the regressive tier system is exploited by virtually every sl enterprise. you view it as an analog to taxation. i view it as it is - a service charge with bulk buying discounts. the regressive tier allows business owners to reach larger markets buy owner more shops, or to operate one large store. it allows for clubs, casinos, and bingo to operate. there for if taxation was introduced to counteract the benefit of the tier structure, it would have to be applied to all economic exchanges and gifting.

now this is plain silly for a game! in rl taxes are used not to penalize citizens, but to operate the political union and to redistribute wealth in the form of social services. it is not intended to penalize citizens for their success. secondly, taxes are a social (and legal) obligation in rl that we all believe are necessary, but grdugingly hand over. why would we want to unnecessarily introduce a taxation system to our "second life?"

the dumping of land did crush many because the price droped rapidly. it slowed down land trading for months until the market corrected. on those months it was difficult to break even. this entire passage is completely inaccurate. please quote anshe's comment and it's context. linden lab really mishandled the land this summer. they were not prepared for the demand for land and temporarily were unable to maintain their desired balance. their reaction was not gradual but a dumping of land that skewed the market in the opposite direction for over a month. this hurt everybody, including anshe. you may be misinterpreting her comments.



you misunderstood me. most land is not sold in parcels larger than most players means. the larger the parcel the less the demand for it because. larger tier players will bid down. lower tier player will not bid up. by catering to the entire spectrum of the land market, the land trader forces large parcel end users to bid market value. if they do not, the land trader is happy to take the parcel and sell it in whichever parcels sizes that can be sold at market value in world.

zugzug,

you are making me laugh! you are using the real world analogies that i'm responding too! you are purposely confounding the the metaphor to serve your cause. you claim your av is you. my av is an instrument for me to navigate the informational space. you use the taxation anaolgy for the tier system, i call it a service charge. you stated last night there are two economies, RL and SL. I consider the SL economy a continuous subset of RL. you consider this to be land and actually compared it to real life land speculators in this very thread this afternoon. i state that it is hardware resource allocation. your metaphors hold meaning for me as models for communication. but they do not become analogs (because i do not suffer from a "reality problem"

of course i like the current system. it allows me to make a profit in an ethical manner in a win win situation with my buyers and my sellers. i work within the rules and i am honest in my dealings. but even before i started speculating on land, i like how unlike pre USD, it allowed me, as an enduser, to use my rl money, if i so chose, to benefit my second life experience. my decision to cut out one drinking night meant i could buy a beautiful waterfall. to me, that was brilliant.

the current system already allows for equal access, but i don't believe all players can ever be equal, like all humans can ever be equal. i don't believe equality exists, nor can it ever exist. as long as access is there, it is for individuals to decide what they value, based on their means of inworld L$ our outworld USD.

Exploitation is unethical as it can not be applied as a universal truth. There are times when unethical behavior is necessary as described in utilitarianism, however in this case no greater good is served through this exploitation.

I support land speculation, however all members of SL must have equal access to the market without exception and we must close all loopholes. Right now the regressive land tiers and the large-area auctions make speculation impossible for the small player. I want to change this so it's fair.

I want the system to be equitable for the benefit of all members of SL and I will never stop fighting for it.

~Ulrika~

Life isn't fair.....what gives you the idea that SL should be or even could be? The haves will always have and the have nots will have not. Until the have nots realize that they must take a risk in order to have they will always have not.

Oh good god, I cant believe we are beating this horse again.

Stop already. There is no exploitatiion going on, just a free market.

One time as a joke, I put up a big (40m by 40m) sign that said "GAY PRON DRIVE IN THEATRE" at one of my lots for sale when I was a land barron.

Yay! Talen is back!

I was just bragging about you teaching me the word "asshat" in another thread.

~Ulrika~

Actually a drive in theater is a hell of a good idea. It would give people who have vehicles something to do with them (since driving in SL is pretty much impossible). There could be AV's on skates going from vehicle to vehicle delivering beer and soft drinks and streaming 50's music.

AV's doing stuff in cars instead of hiding out in caves....

Hmmmm.....

Really thinking about this one Clint. Thanks for the awesome idea.

Is it just me or is the Title of this thread some sort of hidden advertisement. Anshe, did you start this poll just to advertise cause if so there is no need. Everyone knows you sell, buy, rent and you know all that other good stuff.

Next up will be vehicles with sex balls instead of dangling dice It isn't a bad idea - too bad i can't consume the liquor tho

Oooh! Scripted car sex!!! *eyes light up* Excellent! There should be closet sex too and boss's desk sex and mile-high club sex.

I for one would LOVE a drive-in theater. That would be a really cool spot. It would make a great (small) event area as well! Great idea!!

Only hold-up I see is a back seat big enough for 2 AV's.

*hires virtual lawyer*
Hey!!! I have a patent!!!

j/k
It would be neat but could you imagine the lag?

no problems there I have a few that would suffice, and would probably be convertibles due to camera needs. Course if you cant fit in the back seat there is always the Hood

now where is that Zanshin Hovercar in my inv???

universal truth - what the heck is that? it's a modern relic. let's not talk about things we can never know or access.

expecting speculation to be possible for all players is tantamount to expecting equality to exist. forcing a condition of equality is foolish. it's propping up the weak and punishing the strong. i can't support this antiquitated social union in RL or in SL.

the irony of your position is that priviliging the notion universal truths has the result of stifling human intersubjectivity, and thus politics. the belief in universal truth promotes the systemization of the lifeworld upon these "fundemental truths" to engender a timeless spaceless society outside of history exclusive of politics.

time to step into the 21st century, zugzug. time to quit yearning for utopia.

This is false. Universal truth is not a "modern relic". It is a valid hypothetical concept on which all modern philosophy is grounded. Our society exploits the scientific method which creates utility from nature through grounded physical principles and mathematics.

Divorcing a modern society from a universal truth is to deny the industrial revolution. Naturally, I know you don't mean to do that. Instead you deny universal truth as it applies to morality so you don't have feel guilt for unethical behavior.

This is false. I am not attempting to create equal people rather I am trying to regulate the system to provide equal access. What people and their inherent individual inequalities do with it after that is up to them.

The point is, is that everyone should have the same potential to make profit and right now because of regressive land-tier fees and bulk land auctions they do not.

This is a little bit obtuse. I question if it really applies to market reform and regulation or if you're just grasping at metaphysical straws.

Tacky rhetorical ending. Tsk!

Don't start or finish arguments with rhetorical clichés such as "wake up people" or "time to join the real world". When you're engaging me you have to bring the rhetorical big guns or I get bored.

~Ulrika~

Although I am flattered that so many find my work attractive, I'm being swamped with Neg ratings since this Forum was posted!

The Signs that I created for Anshe are free to copy and I offer them to anyone who wishes them.

However I'm deeply disturbed that by performing this service, I'm being triple neg rated with messages like 'I hate your signs all over the land'... 'Why are you ruining the landscape with your signs?'...etc.

Catherine Cotton went as far as to start a rumor that Anshe and I were the same person! (Don't get me started!)

If you choose to neg rate some one... its your personal choice... but please be aware that neg rates do hurt a person, a person's feelings, our stipend (not all of us are land baronesses... without that I can't support contests), and it dropped me like a stone out of the top 100 leaders list...

Please be aware that the creator is just the person who built it... we have no control over where our builds get put.

Hugs to all

With all possible respect intended, Mae, the signs are nicely constructed and it is a shame that people are negging the creator instead of the owner.

In a better world, Anshe would compensate you in some fashion, but I doubt it. I have ceased my $0 SLExchange sale of your signs in case it is contributing to your troubles. Only a handful were "purchased".