SL Needs to Learn to Appreciate Its Members

Ok let me put it this way, chip really has lost his way when it comes how he got to be where he is now. Grant you its his efford that made him the money. But its the smaller players buying his goods that got him here. Not soley his effort of designing. Both parties make buyer ans seller are in this issue not soley his ablity to make products. We need players like chip badly, but saying rubbish about his own effort and not those who support his products really cheapens his point.
I have all the repect for chip-san i said this many times directly to him and on this forum. But his last comment really left alot to be improved on.

I don't know if there's any way to bridge this argument. Just two VERY different perspectives.

I don't think anyone is really convincing anyone else.

What I really like in SL are my FRIENDS. Not my cool-ass Eva pony avatar I bought the other week. Not the latest Pixel Dolls outfit, as gorgeous as it is. Those are fun. The people are priceless.


Personally, I view SL as a fun hobby, a neat challenge, and a wonderful distraction. I wanted to have a beer while I watched the superbowl yesterday. I bought that beer. It wasn't necessary for my enjoyment of the superbowl (which came free with ads and my cable subscription bill), but it enhanced the experience.

Buying stuff in SL isn't necessity, but it absolutely can enhance the experience. So just like I paid for my beer, I will pay for my SL "stuff". If I don't have time to earn the money in-world (as some say, who wants to HAVE to do second life job!), then a couple of bucks on GOM will do the trick.

That's all there is to it. I don't view GOM as cheating, or a scam, or a workaround. It is just like going to the pub or the store and buying a beer. When I go to a movie, I might buy popcorn. (whether or not the price of popcorn is excessive is a *totally* different question from whether or not I should pay for the popcorn).

Of course, both sides are going in circles, and this post won't solve that problem. All I can say is, good luck and keep on having fun. There are more important things to worry about.

Its Ego more then anything else.

Faith, you are an entertaining poster; thanks for the smile. I not only have taken women's studies classes, I actually teach them! so it is true that I may have a different perspective from you. I will not say yours is wrong. We are all entitled to our perspectives. I will, however, say that in this little world, the Lindens = the government, and therefore their policies equal governmental policy. It is common for governments to undertake policy analysis when particular groups are affected more than other groups. That is all I meant by introducing feminist policy analysis into the discourse. It makes good sense and it makes good Cents to ensure that the demographic you are serving is well served. It also makes good sense and cents to make sure that women are as happy with the product as are men and that they stay in the community. Rather than waiting for a long term population shift to happen over the coming months, it made sense to me to suggest that the Lindens do a bit of research around how governmental policies affect those groups. This is not abstract theory as much as sound practice.

As for clubs not charging fees, here is one reason why this will not work in every case: I have a concrete example at hand to improve clarity. As an events host that works for a club, I post an event. I charge a cover for the event. The money the people pay goes to the owners of the land (and there are several owners in that group, though I am not one of them). The people have paid their $5L cover charge to about 7 different people give or take one. Each of those has therefore gotten a fraction of a dollar for each attendee for my efforts. How, then, do I, the events host, recoup money from the event? I used to do that through the Lindens. You see, it was not clubs who were sponsored; more accurately it was the hosts that were given money for making events content and entertainment for Linden customer base. Now, the clubs themselves must pay staff and they can only do so if a structure exists by which they can transfer those myriad little tiny cover charge fractions given to different owners into a lump sum payment to an events host. I used to be paid by the Lindens, and get tipped by my club to host a cool event. Given the time I put in for preparation, that worked out to about $50L per hour of my time. Now the club is at a loss about how to pay me as they have to recoup my fee from many different owners, if a cover charge is charged through the events posting page. I have said several times that what we really need is an automated ticket booth script. I have posted this in the scripting section as well as in other strings. I hope that someone decides to take the job. I have offered to pay for such a script, thereby helping to underwrite its research and development, just in order to add stability to my employment opportunities.

So, just to provide clarity, there are real reasons why charging thorugh our present mechanisms for an event doesn't effectively work in addition to the fact that club owners are afraid that they will lose customers to the club down the street that ISNT charging a cover. For events hosts such as myself, nothing about the change is positive. It will cost me both in lindens and in US $. Certainly I never considered myself on welfare. I provided content for the money I got, often putting in as many as 5 or 7 hours per each $250 paycheck I collected (or slightly more $ with tips). Now, club owners have to pay hosts more than they will recover with the traffic bonus in order to have events, or hope that hosts will be willing to do it for cheap or free. Events hosts can try to have quality events and charge at the door (I did just that already to try to be paid fairly for my work) but then what do hosts do if someone chooses not to pay but also wants to stay at the event? Since I am not the club owner, I cannot kick the person out. Also, I am an events host and not a hall monitor. I tried this method and kept an open mind about it, but found that it only worked if i employed a staff person to distribute programs and charge admission to newcomers as I actually ran the event. So, if I charge $10 per person and 14 show, I split my $140 with the person taking the programs, so I will have worked 5 to 7 hours for a total of $70. For some clubs this whole charging at the door thing might work better, but as far as I can tell, most clubs are struggling with paying staff now unless they are willing to subsidize it with bought Lindens in the hopes that they will have a property in the top 2% of traffic and get US$ back. Do they get back as much as they spend, I wonder?

All of the issues you raise are important to discuss. I do hope you have the patience to hear the reasons for why the "welfare" wasn't "welfare" at all and why the charging at the door is still quite problematic. If you have any ideas for how to solve the problem, I am certainly open to hearing them!

No one person has all the good ideas (an idea from one of those pesky women's studies classes i teach ).

Cheers! ~ Perse.

Hi LD: I am not whining or crying or sucking off of anyone's teat (well not lindens anyway ;-D) But WAS as an events host, able to secure the equivalent of a workable wage for providing quality content. I took a wage cut to pay for the strong $L. Is there ANYONE out there who has been rated since the ratings change? Seems like a way to ensure that those who were rated in November will remain at the top evermore to me.
The events calendar HAS been changed significantly. There are now fewer events that aren't about gambling than ever before. Many fewer arts events posted, too, I notice. The hired escorts, sexy avie contests etc aren't going anywhere in the meantime because of the simple fact that there is demand for them for one thing and for another thing, we have an employment base of untrained workers with very little access to the training they would need to become trained workers. Also, the people in the position to best train them are the very ones they would be competing with in the marketplace so $500 per class doesn't seem to be enough compensation for the trainers to train the untrained.

The issues are multiple and complex. Attempts to simplify the issue in fact get us nowhere. I would love, however, to discuss the issue at length with anyone prepared to actually work toward a solution and not just insult people on the other side of the fence. This is our community, and though we may not agree upon what we want in it, we can at least agree to treat one another respectfully.

Ty. ~ Perse.

irl there are arts grants one can apply for, even to run drumming groups. Arts and culture grants from businesses, private foundations and governments pay for most arts and culture agencies to keep their doors open.

I spit out my coffee I was laughing so hard. You are so correct! I am a major proponent of capitalism and usually side with business owners however who gives a rats ass whether or not there will be events without club owners when the types of events they hold are as you describe above.

Would the world be a better place with fewer clubs and fewer events. Maybe, maybe not. OK, probably.

The lindens are looking at ways to phase out the old ratings, to return it all to a level playing field. It'll take a long time (as all things Linden do), but it will happen.



It looks pretty much the same to me; dozens of sex/club/dance events, dozens of Tringo games, and about 7-8 useful/educational/artistic events. It's been like this since August.



If there's demand for them, they'll remain being paid, which means there is zero need for lindens to pay the club owners/hosts money to keep their stuff in business. Thus negating your point




The point of shifting support only to educational events is to bootstrap the unwashed masses into becoming skilled at something, anything so they won't have to dance on poles and sell their virtual hoohas for some perceived "need" of lindens.



No amount of compensation would be enough then for those people to actually teach others, unless it became more profitable than their actual skill did.

LF

(1) Do RL drumming circles really happen only because of arts grants? I'm awfully suspicious of that. I would have thought most people who organize such things just got a park permit (if necessary) and ran off a couple of dozen fliers at Kinko's and didn't worry about getting reimbursed. Am I mistaken?

(2) The other example of yours that I responded to was regarding events that occur in IRC. Are IRC-based events dependent on federal support as well? Or do people generally do things in IRC just because they like doing them?

In retrospect, my earlier post was a little too narrow when I divided events into two basic categories (those that will be supported by market forces, and those that people do because they want to). You're right that there's a perfectly valid third category, which are events that are sponsored by benefactors for what they believe to be the general good.

Events like that are great. If there are SL benefactors who would want to sponsor such events (and I suspect there are), I think that is fantastic, and I deeply appreciate their civic mindedness. If there were interesting cultural events put on by a non-profit type SL organization, I would happily donate some of my meager in-world salary either on a public radio pledge drive model or on a donate-at-the-door model.

But just as there are plenty of types of events that fit this model, there are plenty that don't. There will always be some events that are put together by non-professional organizers who do them just for fun. Right?

Likewise, there are many types of professionally organized events that might not fit any benefactor's notion of being for the public good. Not that there's anything wrong with those types of events; it simply means that they will have to be self-supporting.

I do not concede that point to be negated, Lordfly. I indicated that there are some clubs who are competing for the 2% high traffic USD$ who are willing to pump money into keeping events (any event that pulls in people) going. This has been two or three clubs and will keep being two or three clubs. (Though even one of the largest of THESE was recently sold off.) However, some event categories are waning. I used to see more writer's events. I see them rarely now, outside of the ones I host, myself. Also, the number of mentor events has dropped and not increased according to my count. When I came into the game, there were 3-4 mentor events per day. Now there might be 1-2.

As for selling virtual hoohas, maybe the players in question don't HAVE to sell them: maybe they choose to because it makes more money than selling what they build. Perhaps they have excellent descriptive skills and don't care to spend money manufacutring sofas that aren't gonna sell anyway. Personally, I am trying to learn how to build; I saved for and bought a scanner and am trying to learn GIMP but it will be several months before my efforts are worth anything other than giveaways, if they ever are market-worthy. I may, eventually, see enough of a return to pay for the scanner, but I seriously doubt it. I am certain I would never see enough of a return to pay for photoshop. In a single night of escorting, one escort with whom I am close friends...(ok. ok. my own naughty-grrrl alt) made $4k. Why wouldn't I sell virtual hoohas at that price? The amount that alt can and does make escorting will be what subsidizes the activities that I can do for the public good, I suppose, since events will not pay for themselves and sponsorships are reeeeeeeely hard to come by. Last time I ran an arts event, which was just last week, I made a total of $20 for 3 hours work. Contrast that with $1k / hour that a talented escort can make and one may see why folks choose to do this.

Should the entirity of our in-game experience be subject to the laws of the marketplace? Or do we want some part of society in this little virtual world that exists outside of consumerism? And if we do, is it only the people doing the work who should be paying (in time and rl $) for that to happen?

About drumming circles and arts/culture grants: there may be a cross cultural communication happening here: I am located near a First Nation reserve (or indian reserve as they are still sometimes referred to *cringes*). These drumming circles do garner local business support and also cultural preservation support as well as arts funding for tours. I am certain there are also drumming circles and other informal events people put on because they want to hang with friends and beat on stuff. These, I think, are commonly referred to as parties. I would make a distinction between parties and events because they are somewhat different in character, even while recognizing that some happenings will have aspects of both phenomena.

IRC is a super broad category. I have not paid for any experiences in IRC, but neither have I been able to rely on the experience to happen at any particular time or to be scheduled in advance the way that events are in SL. IRC seems to fit the model of parties: people who know each other or have a common interest hanging out with very little formality involved. These are my own experiences in IRC, and I cannot extrapolate from these that they are representative due to small sample size. However, one could make the argument that all internet activities were subsidized as universities, governments, and private corporations paid for the research and development of the tool we use in our own private homes.

My primary interest is the comparison of SL to real life. So many people use real-life terms like welfare to describe what the Lindens gave to events hosts. In fact, a more accurate label would be "arts and culture grants." Don't like the arts or culture that was produced by those? Well, then maybe have some kind of evaluative system by which people can apply for those monies that is more restrictive (not an idea I am super fond of, but form an arts council that awards grants for excellence if you want to weed out the "good" arts and culture from the "bad" arts and culture).

As for the donate at the door model and the nonprofit vs for profit distinction, I have not been able to make either workable in SL. In RL, one has ticket booths, and a staff of at least 3 to run most live arts events. One also does not come from a paradigm where, just a few weeks ago, people paid one to attend the event. The latter makes it more difficult for the $ at the door model to work. I cannot, at the club I have been working, charge for the event and recoup the money from the multitude of owners of which I am not one. My only alternative is to charge and pass out programs on the honour system. Some people (when I have charged for programs) paid for them cheerfully at the door. Others did not, and to kick them out of the event for not paying would be disruptive, had I had the power to do that, which I didn't. Also, taking tickets, distributing programs, and running an event (the type I run anyway) is virtually impossible to do simultaneously. Even the contribution of a box office script would be extremely helpful to events hosts. I have posted asking for this a few places, and have tried to hire scripters, offering to pay for their efforts, but have yet to hear from anyone that they are going to do this. What makes a non-profit what it is is that all the funds are used for continuing works, after salaries are paid to the workers and the rent and utilities are paid for. Also some non-profits in some countries are allowed to keep a savings account of funds that may be used for rainy days. I know of very few clubs that do not meet these criteria (only those who are being paid in USD for being in the 2% high traffic list, but even those, arguably, could apply the winnings to the costs of producing new works).

Again, something that no one has addressed in my numerous (sorry if they are repetitive; I try to make unique points each time while retaining info pertinent to the current discussion): was there any positive side to this change for anyone other than lindens sellers? I have yet to see one. Can someone help me out with that? Also, thanks for your civil tone in this post, Strangeweather.

~ Perse

Perhaps not as long as you think.

I would have called anything for which you send out a general invite (like an SL event listing) an event, and distinguished it from gatherings where you specifically invite your friends, and not the general public. But I can certainly understand your point of view on this.



Certainly true. I would never advocate the pure libertarian "government should never subsidize anything because the free market is perfect" point of view. Government does some things well, and the free market does others well. When in doubt, I usually lean toward a free market approach, but not in a doctrinaire way.



All benefactors, whether private institutions or public, have the right to evaluate their grants programs and decide whether they feel like something valuable has been done with them. When government funds go toward supporting arts that the public actively dislikes (the old flap over "P*ss Christ" comes to mind), it tends to be bad for arts funding. When I was younger, I used to think this was inherently evil. These days, I tend to be a bit more sanguine -- it's simply a fact that the people who give out the money have the right to determine how it's spent, not you or me acting individually.

If the Lindens decided that a lot of the cash was going to things they didn't want to subsidize, like "sexy av contests," that's understandable. But it's hard (for them or anyone) to draw a precise line between things that are beneficial for the community (and should be actively encouraged) and things that ought to support themselves.



If RL "arts" grants were going to strip clubs, it would take about 24 hours for people to start changing the rules. Some kind of system for distinguishing between "good" and "bad" is both inevitable and necessary. I think a system like what you describe would be a great idea, but time-consuming to administer. For a small company like Linden Labs, it is likely to be impractical.

In practice, if SL is going to have an arts council, I think it would have to be a private nonprofit. If someone started one that collected dues and sponsored events, I would be happy to join.



That's too bad -- I mean that seriously. Hopefully as people realize that the business model has changed, they will be more receptive. I think things will adapt over time, but I certainly don't envy you trying to make a living in this period of dislocation.



I haven't learned to script yet, so I can't help you. I hope you are able to find someone.



I don't think anything that is nominally "a nonprofit" needs to be supported. I think the only useful way to give out grants is either to have someone that administers them to try to find recipients that are worthwhile, or to find categories of things that are innately valuable, like the support for educational events.



Stopping inflation is valuable for everyone, so that the cool $250L skirt you saw last week isn't a cool $500L skirt next week. As various countries have found out over the years, it doesn't do any good to give out more money if it devalues the currency, because then things just cost more.



I'm not very comfortable with the "Here we are now, entertain us" attitude of some people who believe that the Lindens have a responsibility to provide them with lots of free money just for showing up. But you are very obviously trying to create things that add value to SL, and you deserve every bit as much respect as people who build objects or scripts.

I laugh everytime someone tells me how the real club money is in dwell and that all Club Owners are out for is dwell.

First of all, let me say this again...you are welcome at anytime to come to my club and verify that I don't pay dancers/strippers or escorts/whores. Never had them..and never will. I also don't host "prostitute" parties...as has been suggested previously on this line.

In fact, most of the clubs that I frequent don't do any such thing. There are a very small minority of clubs doing this stuff and the only reason they're popular is because the strippers/whores they employ are told they have to stay at the club most of their time in game.

Most clubs are providing fun social content in SL and the dwell funds are laughable.

I had two events at my club yesterday...just bingo and tringo. Each event cost me about 500-700 lindens to hold and my dwell bonus yesterday was 55L.

Now, I wasn't a Mathematics major but I'm thinking I'm not making a killing. And the fact of the matter is, people are not going to pay a cover to get in. I know a couple of people that have tried that in the last little while and have had some empty events.

I'm watching the events calendar get more and more pathetic. So I guess my original post...was right.

By the way...the hookers clubs are still around and doing just fine.

This will be my last post on the subject because clearly the forum crowd isn't really representing the club owners my original post was out to target. They are the opinions I was interested in ...and I've already heard from them in game.

The people posting on here are largely misinformed and clearly anti-club.

Funny how a common 'thread' throughout this forum is that the people starting threads are so quick to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with them as misinformed and clearly anti-<insert topic here>.

No, the problem with this particular thread is that you started it by lashing out at everyone you think are "anti-club" and came off like someone looking for corporate welfare. That will elicit responses from people who are both anti-club and also anti-whiners. That's a good portion of the subscribers to this forum.

Bingo. Extremely well put.

I am. Certainly I am not a whiner, but I am interested in keeping the aspects of SL culture that I and others like me enjoy. I do not think this is whining but active participation in our community. Is someone a whiner for speaking out about government actions that he or she disagrees with? Is someone engaging in bully tactics when he or she engages in namecalling? I believe no to the former, but decidedly yes to the latter.

Again, this is our community. Why not try to be civil and respectful to one another? That costs not a single penny and does go a very very long way toward promoting a healthier and happier place to be. Thanks. ~ Perse (responding to below)

I provide content, yet I'm not a club, I generate dwell, yet not for myself, I rent my land, yet I turn a profit.

How? By examining the economy, working out what I'm good, what my friends are good at, and planning.

Does this make me better or worse than a club? No, it makes me different. Same goes for all us 'elitist snobs' who are bullying you.. apparently.

You club types (I'll say 'you', as I don't club myself.. but I did end up playing Tringo a couple of times.. damn it's addictive!).. need to remember you don't have us to worry about at all. Us elitist bullying snobs are neither your cometitors nor you patrons.

Other clubs are who you should be watching out for. The good ones might eat up your patrons with a better deal.

What we're seeing here is the same situation as the dinosaurs faced. The environment has changed, the weak will die, the smart will evolve and prove successful.

Please note, I put you guys on this thread in neither category since I don't know you. I would think you will be tough, though, because obviously you care and have energy.

If we (us evil elite) seem uncaring, you're mistaken, it's not that we don't care, it's more that we can do nothing about the changes. Linden Labs have changed the rules, in the same way that a giant asteroid changed the rules for our dinosaur buddies.

We can't make LL change the rules, and we can't make the boulder fly back up into space.

So now you're left with 2 choices.
1) Keep going and change
2) Die

Which do you chose? If you chose to keep going, sit down with a piece of paper and work ou the numbers. What are your costs? What can you expect to make? What ideas do you have to make money? You guys know a lot more about running clubs than any of us elitists, I'm sure you can do just fine. Go for it! And remeber, the patrons won't be dropping off soon, but the clubs WILL! That's good for you, right!

I saw a great club the other day, the BK Waterpolo place.. a game and a club environment. Cool! I'd love to see more creative places like this. But you can choose your own path

Another simple fact is there will always be more people wanting to run clubs and things than there is room in the economy to do so. Just like the real world where.. what is it.. 80% of businesses will collapse within the first 5 years. In SL, I bet 80% collapse within the first 5 weeks. That's because this isn't like PlayStation where the more you play, the more you win. If only huh!

As for not being able to make money without being part of the patriarchy.. well. No, that doesn't hold. I can build, roughly, texture.. badly, yet I'm part of a cool project. How? I made some friends and had an Idea. That's not a barrier to anyone here. If clubbing isn't doing it for you, and you're short of ideas. Talk to me, I have dozens. Hell, I had an idea yesterday which would generate profit for the owner and help newbs too.. just don't have the time or spare coder friend to build it. Seriously tho, I love chatting about business ideas in SL. Buzz me.

All note Foxy Xevious. Not really a coder or builder, but has the best looking and coded content. How? She uses her womanly charms (no not rude!) one must presume (to follow Persephone's logic). So it is perfectly doable for women to 'compete'.

Actually, Forseti had a great idea! Club events sponsored by a fashion house. Half way through, break for a 5 min fashion show from said vendor, and your patrons could have a little side-stall to buy those items from. Great idea! Everyone wins!

Another thought. Clubs will always have problems, because of time/earnings issues. The richest people in the world (RL and SL) are those who can invent a widget and then sell it. And it sells whether they are awake, asleep, working, holidaying, whatever. They don't need to put in hours and hours of time to get a reward. The rest of us work and are paid for our time, and little else. If we work more, we get paid more, work less, we get paid less.

Thus people who run events will always get the short end of the stick unless they have widgets to sell as well. This is just like real life. And something we all just have to deal with I think.

Long and rambly I know, but remember, this isn't PlayStation. Simply putting in time won't guarantee you success (if you measure that in money). If your club isn't doing well, do something else for a while and come back with some fresh ideas!

To ramble more. Anyone social with coder mates I have a great business ready to go. Cut me in for a few % and the idea is yours.

..I like how DarkLife keeps making it into the lists as well. No Linden support, no events, no dwell. Just.. fun and content! Come on clubs, you can survive! Be Strong! Creative! Clever! If its beyond you.. well.. why????

That reminds me, I should run some training event things. Perhaps warbots! Yes, love those toys whatshisname created..

Er Cim, why does a bingo event cost YOU money to hold? Surely you're doing something wrong??

Now where are my teeth. This oldbie.. has to go do.. something old people do. Damn, memory failing as well

Hello everyone,.. For years i have scoured the internet looking for any MMO i could try out and as a result i have tried most if not all of the successful ones whithin the last five years,..I consider myself an artist as I am only truly happy when I am doing something artistic and at some point i realized i could couple my love for gaming and art into a career some day,..after thinking it through i decided i was going to leave active duty Airforce to join the reserves so i could spend as much time i could working on whatever degree i needed to get into gaming as an artist. My seperation date was supposed to be october of 2004 but i was called up for a deployment b4 i got out,..i left in august and got back in december of 2004,..while i was out there i discovered SecondLife on the internet and i was amazed at the simple snapshots and the LL comments on the content about player made content so i spent alot of time on my gov't internet account..shh i didnt just say that, lol..trying to understand what SL was,..seeing as i could not play while i was out there. I realized that this might have been my answer to not only my need to find an MMO that i can enjoy continuously and exercise my unending need to do anything artistic and to socialize which is what mmo's are about. NE one who played UO and stood at east Brit bank knows what i mean.. So to wrap up my post...i got back..started my account and am currently looking into what school i want to attend and practice my PS and 3ds max skills at the same time.... So,...I use SL as a way to springboard into the gaming industry,..as i do take everychance i get to talk to any linden who takes the time to listen to me about they do in the gaming industry and what they had to get there,..
TY anyone who took the time to read this,..IM me and say hi some time..and heres the shameless plug,.....Come visit Darklife and say hello!..


VR.
SRA Crash Adams

Good post, Pirate.

However, the big difference is that the dinosaurs (probably) didnt have a forum that they could incessantly whine about the asteroid on, and how it was ruining their fun, and how they ought to be compensated for it.

That bit you said about not caring, tho? Well, frankly, I'm really beginning to lose any sympathy I might have had for any of these people. Because they'd obviously much rather sit and wallow in their own self pity and come here to make damned sure we don't forget how hard done by they really are now - while they lash out at those who will roll with the changes and will at least try to adapt - than actually get up and do anything about it.

There are more than a few I wish would just leave and be done with it.

Now where's my free money?

Thanks for that, Kris, you made my day.

I just call 'em as I see 'em, Lance. Not going for the popularity vote here. hehe. But glad it made you chuckle

Now like I said.. WHERE'S MY FREE MONEY?

I left SL for a while, partly because of personal reasons, but it also had to do with attitudes. There are many many many wonderful people in SL, unfortunately it only takes a few doorknobs to kill the fun. It seems to me that if you truely want to help an economy and at the same time allow the people to have thier fun, the Linden approach is not correct.

I understand that they want to curb the high prices on land and items, but reducing the amount of money in circulation is not the answer. The inflation is a direct result in monopolies, I'm not going to get into the whole land baron argument here because it's old and tired and no one wants to hear about it. But the truth is that if you want land in SL you are pretty much forced to go to a "Realator" of some sort to get your land. They set the prices at "Market Rates" which are always a little higher. What was once 1k is now 10k, the current prices on land are not reflective of a fair price, but rather what some people are willing to pay.

Some would argue this is capitolisim at it's finest, I however would argue that it's elitist. I tiered down and sold my land (at what I thought it was worth, not "market rates" because I found that soon I will be sinking all my money into land that I'm not at. I like clubs, I like social events. This game/simulator/whatever is and has always been about freedom, freedom to make anything, do anything, go anywhere you want. But by cutting people's main source of income (the stipend) you aren't helping anyone. What you are doing is cutting peoples money, which in turn means less people donate to interesting projects or buy that l33t shiney thing that they wanted. Welcome to the recession boys and girls.. Please enjoy your stay.

I'm sure this makes no sense as I got very little sleep last night. Why? because I was up all night socializing in a club.

anyway that's my .02 L$

Perse,

If you look at my message and look at the original topic (authored by someone else) you should be able to see that I was not name calling but rather characterizing what I felt the post was. Whining. If that is considered a bully tactic in your book...well, I can't say what I think or I'd be accused of name calling.

I think the lack of stipend is a different issue from the lack of club support.

Really, I don't know how I feel about the lack of stipend. I own no land so I wasn't getting any anyway... hmm.

But it does seem a shame to remove money from newbs who when they run out might find their interest running out too.

On the other hand I think we'll see changes to the ratings system soon that will offer some reward to skilled/nice/pretty people... so I dunno.

PC