SL Needs to Learn to Appreciate Its Members

Nobody is questioning that, Persephone. Nor is anyone saying that SL needs to have "only" builders and "no" socialites.

The issue is, should Linden Labs pay them for existing or not.

Builders don't get sponsorships or subsidies. Scripters don't. Until now, club owners did.

All that's changing is that clubs are going to have to find a way to make money just like everyone else. Not that they need to go. The "Oh these people only want scripters and builders!" line has been nothing but an emotional retort; it isn't true.

We're talking about Linden just handing out money.

Clubs can make money. They don't have to have it *given* to them by LL.

The complaints arise out of people having to deal with a change - where they were getting "free money", that they aren't anymore.

The rest of us, who didn't run clubs, didn't get those handouts or subsidization.

You can make money on your club. It just may take a little more than telling the Lindens you exist, now. And that's an even playing field. If people want to pay for the stuff we build, they will.

And on the same note, if people want what you have to offer, they'll put value into it too.

Persephone,
What does LL pay you for a 1 hour event? $500L ?
I will replace LL and pay you $600L per event you hold on my land.
See...you got a raise.
IM me inworld.

(BTW I am serious)

Okay, so you're saying that women can't script and build, only dance, without being trumped by guys?

And because women 'disproportionately' dance and shake their ass versus creating or developing, this is a gender biased change?

So in summary, women should get handouts for being in SL?

Why, because we've got pretty faces?

Thanks, Persephone. Jesus. a Women's Lib poster child you are not.

persphone, you are an events planner in RL? cool! If you want to be compensated for your events in SL, well, how are your events supported in RL? I assume you get paid by a sponsor or multiple sponsors/advertisers. Maybe if you were starting out as a freelancer, you needed to do some stuff to show the world that you were really good and should hire you. SL may not be RL, but the same lessons apply in a lot of areas. I am sure if you are putting on events that attract lots of people, that shop owners & other event holders would pay to sponsor/advertise. I would. Contact me in-world one of these days and let's talk about your events -- I just might! There are probably other ideas as well.

Listen, I won't argue that with the subsidy gone it won't be more work, and there won't be ups and downs, but I think we'll still see cool events. You *might* also start seeing better events because events become *more* profitable for the givers ... this is going to force people to evolve and improve!

There are many women in SL who are capable of doing many very creative and powerful things...
As for statements about programming: Cobal was created by a lady in the air force, she later went on to make future languages for modern computers, I forget which current language she developed, I think... C? I could be wrong on the current one.
Indeed, the question was already posed: how do you make money for real life event planning?

My mom worked for the DOD doing programming on Univac during the cold war. In turn, I've developed for Sony, Sprint, Sonic Foundry, and more.

You forgot about Ada Pascal, I believe, who developed the first programming language ever, for the difference engine.

That's why there's a programming language called "ada" right now.

There's also Anna Borg (interesting last name)... but it doesn't matter. That wasn't the point of the topic. It's not what interests her. (Persephone.) - assuming that all women share her interests and motivations was a red herring to try and add 'weight' to the argument.

Fact of the matter is, now, she's going to have to do a little more legwork to make money. Those who are good at this, will succeed. Those who won't, will whine and leave.

how about an event sponsorship program?

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YAY...couldn't have said it better Torley. I apprecaite LL for all they have done for us and I stand behind their recent decision. Jebus ppl stop bitchin'!! *playing worlds smallest violin*

Interestingly, I AM a poster child for womens liberation. (laughs, as she is a feminist activist in rl who encourages governments and policymakers to consider how their policies impact women including average women and not merely those who excel in gender nontraditional fields.) Ok. As I said, I wasn't meaning to imply that there weren't talented women builders or scripters, but rather that gender traditional training and role choices indicate that more women build certain skills as opposed to others and that more men do the same. No absolute sentence such as women aren't builders was in my posting. I acknowledge and applaud women who work in gender nontraditional work. In fact, in RL i was instrumental in creating a scholarship fund, available to both men and women, for high school seniors choosing gender nontraditional employment.

What would I do in RL to host events, and create programming? Look for where arts grant dollars are available for a reliable source of income before planning a season's offerings with a blend of commercial and risky, community-expanding content. Effectively, the SL equivalent of that is gone, meaning that only commercial content is likely to remain (just as if you pull all the arts funding and notice, suddenly, that Disney owns all the theatres in downtown Manhattan, and the only thing left to get tickets to are spectacle shows like cats or the lion king. eewwwww!) (Nothing against you furries btw. Particularly if you are wealthy corporate builder types. ;-D)

I am speaking about gender traditional roles and skills not to say that women don't do some of the things men do and vice versa, but that women will be disproportionately affected by this move. That is all. It will matter more to women in game than to men in game. Maybe I am wrong, but I would be willing to conduct a survey replete with conscientious statistical analysis if someone wants to sponsor one! No hard feelings now, you rich builders etc. Heavens, I certainly don't want to irritate or Irk the Man! but hey, it is worth pointing out when any policy (whether in simulated government or in rl government) disproportionatley impacts one group over another. That is all I am doing here. I am saying that the policy contains inherent bias (unintentional though it may be) because it disproportionately impacts social players which women are more likely to be.

Cheers! and Hey thanks for the job offers, folks! I certainly will contact some of you and see if we can make a deal!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA Wooah move over butter, there's an ego coming down the pike! LOL



Well, I certainly don't hope to be classified amongst "these morons"...but the fact is, it is NOT ROCKET SCIENCE to run a club. That said, I DO know how much work it can be to host events and more power to ya... it's bad enough when I DJ and have 15 IM's going with song requests... I can't imagine how event hosts can handle it when they call for votes for some contest they are running, etc.

I have a pretty good idea of how much "money" goes into running a club. Here's my post from earlier today:
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My math experiment RE: Clubs

OK guys let's do some theoretical math here (for my own sanity):

a club on a 4096sq m plot needs to make $15/month tier fee, which let's say equates to around L$3800 a month.

So in order for a club to be self-sustaining, they need to at least cover the tiering fee, plus any "employee salary" plus any prize money they give away. So let's say:

5 dancers/bouncers/event hosts @ L$100 per event each
L$200/event prize giveaway (conservatively)
5 events per week
4 weeks in a month

so that's (L$500/event for salary +L$200 prizes) x 5 x 4 = L$14,000
add in the tier charge of L$3800 and you get: L$17,800 total monthly operating expenses

Break even number of club visitors at $10/event cover charge would need to be:

20,000 monthly / 20 events = club needs to generate L$1000 per event, which would mean that you would need 100 visitors per event at that cover charge to break even.

So that means they have to either have more events, charge more at the door, get lots more people to show up, get money in donations/Linden support, or tier down to a cheaper smaller plot.

I have left out any income that Dwell might add, or Linden payouts.

Your thoughts on all this???

Arti
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That's just really sad that you think that. Come to Crescent sometime, you will see a beautiful Museum that REGULARLY has build contests/events and displays people's work for all to see! (Thank you Tayzia!), or look for Lash's or Starax's sculptures or a dozen others who are VERY talented artists and builders.

YAY Dallas! YAY LF! YAY Michi!!! Nice posts!

Have a great day!

Arti

Biological creatures can succumb to natural selection, certainly. But another interesting theory is that we need arts and culture in our societies to survive. This is why almost every culture has some means of providing assistance to the purveyors of arts culture (whether this is everyone bringing chickens and feted calves to the healers and storytellers, or a sophisticated system of support such as the National Endowment for the Arts). Short sighted anarchists may say that we need to stop funding to all things that don't support themselves. All i can say is: hope you like pay toilets!

I was in the train station in Edinburgh, Scotland and they had pay toiliets that cost 20/pence.

Again, I am not, as I literally said in my original post, saying that women don't make contributions to gender nontraditional fields, merely that the impacts on groups as a whole need to be considered by all those making governmental policy, whether in SL or RL.

Ty for the tech history. What I am meaning to say is that multiple skills are important to Second Life, and that these need and deserve attention. Also that the skills that are least likely to make money through capitalism are those also most likely to be accumulated and used by women in this game. I am not saying that only women are events hosts or that women are only events hosts. I am looking at gender trends in terms of proportional impact. In other words, I am doing what responsible policy makers should be doing to ensure that their policies do not disproportionately affect marginalized groups (which women arguably are in a tech culture).

Ty again for your response. I enjoy learning from those who post and try to contribute back with insight and humour when possible. Arts funding is a subject close to my heart however, and this whole thing is giving me flashbacks to the Reagan era cuts of the NEA after which many arts organizations (many good ones and not just the scum of mediocrity) suffered, foundered and disbanded or failed for want of consistent and reliable support.

perseph -- the former program was NOT an arts subsidy. That would be a cool program. The event sponsorship was a generic subsidy.

Morse, I think it is only fair to note that your income has in part been generated by a club that does these things (money balls / whores / promotions) so in fact, what comes around goes around. Less $ djing for you i would imagine friend (and i truly mean friend, as I like Morse and chat with him frequently in game). However, the impact here is not merely on the clubs themselves but also on events organizers. AND on people who go to events. If I can afford only one event per MONTH I may be interested in only going to clubs where I am likely to win big money (i.e. favouring large club owners or property owners who want to sell me their land, etc, over small events space owners) and therefore foregoing the more interesting activity which will have to charge me $50 / head in order to pay for a very modest organizer's stipend and crappily built chairs as prizes. I will forego the artsy/fun event because i can't afford it and survival of the fittest will not necessarily equate to survival of the best. In arts and culture this has meant the halfhour sitcom that is identical to other halfhour sitcoms and disney in downtown manhattan and the death of hundreds of dance companies and innovative organizations. The model just does not work with arts and culture, or hasn't in any of the rl scenarios that I can think of.

Interestingly, also, you were considering a move to building as a career path. Now would certainly be the time for that as there may not be many in the bracket able to still sponsor djs with passing on some of their linden welfar $ to the likes of you, bub (sly wink insert here). *hugs and warm wishes, but also, ouch! this hurts me your friend and not just random strangers*

Because there wasn't an arts and culture subsidy, but an events subsidy and because arts and culture largely happen through events, I used the term synonymously as applied to my own purposes. The problem here is that there is no provision whatever made for events that people want to see continue unless they serve the need of a club owner who wants dwell and honestly, who wants it that badly) or for the disproportionate impact that this policy will have on women. The policies are being implimented without much feedback from players and quite quickly so that shock and awe might in fact be the best description of what many of my fellow events organizers feel. One simply isn't going to pay $50 to come do a sceners competition or to play drums in a circle. At least, I don't suspect i would do that when I can do the first free in IRC or do the latter for free (in another season) outside around a fire. In other words, our culture is being limited to what is capitalistically feasible. If there WERE some kind of bridging provisions for worthy events (granted that deeming what was and wasn't worthy might be another pot of glue entirely) then it wouldn't be such an issue. But soon, one will have real content problems not just through the lack of sponsorship but because people like me will not be able to afford to go! (ok, granted I make quite a bit for personal services i offer, but that is not a consistent income source. so on a good week i might be able to go to an arts event and pay $50, but otherwise, I will be home trying to make myself crappy looking shoes in game because i won't be able to afford any to compliment the crappy looking dress i also made myself.) *bites lip in mock self-derision, but nonetheless is honestly concerned over the impact to my avie's personal hygiene if she must wear the one designer dress she has every day of the week* ;-D

You mean there wouldn't be any more "Cum fuck our dirty whore slut fuckfest cumshot rimshot buckshot escort service club!" or "Oo! Come dance and get free money!" events.

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You mean somebody actually had this event and I missed it???? DAYUM!!

And I'll continue to say that this is a red herring, and you're spinning it.

You're saying that, in essence, the things that "women are more likely to do in game" are "less likely to make money."

This is not a valid reason for women to be given money for nothing in game. Furthermore, bringing gender into this is completely off the wall. Financial consideration is given to those who can engage in financial endeavours. Male or female.

Under such a scenario, I'd both be making a decent L$ income providing items that people want to buy in game, and on top of that, receiving the "female subsidy" because it's unlikely that i'd be providing items that people want to buy in game; even though I am.

It doesn't make sense. I have to chalk this up to the kneejerk reaction of someone who has recently completed a womens' studies course and hasn't really integrated the nuances of that subject into the real world.

Crying "WOMEN ARE THE VICTIMS HERE!" whenever you see an opening does not promote feminism and it does not help our causes. It's a detriment, and causes real issues to be underconsidered. It's crying wolf, and it's a distractor.

There is likely an entire category of men who would be unlikely to engage in capitalistic activities on SL too. After it's all broken down, it simply comes to: are you willing and able to engage in business or not.

Not everyone is willing to, or can. It's not a gender issue.

You're right. the funding stream was for competitions, but those creative enough could construe these competitions as a way to blend sport and art (in the manner, for instance, of theatresports). I am for the creation of an arts fund like the one you propose, Foresti, but warn that it means a fundamental shift for attendees of events. One reason that, for me, this game was vastly preferable to TSO was because of the organized and varied landscape of events I could attend. It is true that some clubs seemed to spew out events that were all about dwell, but even those were good for the economy and fashion designers. Unless the public makes a fundamental shift that includes the willingness to support events and not be supported by events, the events landscape is going to look as ghosty as it does in any TSO ghosttown. *hears gunslingers and tumbleweeds already*

I am merely proposing that we consider the impact of political decisions on all groups and that some activities (not genders, but activities) be continued to be publicly sponsored. The fact that it disproportionately affects one gender is an assertion i can and will support. Simple computation should be easy where we can find data (including posts and blogs) but will not be as effective as a study which the lindens would be wise to conduct only to ensure that their product won't be less attractive to key consumer groups as a result.

Because the changes disproportionately affect new players and nonbuilders, it is fair to consider how that system weight shift will impact the culture of the game as a whole. I am not crying anything or spinning anything. I am making well-reasoned assertions that I am more than happy to support. Who are the people who staff events and hold the host jobs of events? how many do you know? how many of those are female? see? you did the work for me. I'd be happy to conduct a responsible survey of events workers and hosts if anyone cares to fund it.

So there! (stamps foot and looks triumphant). hehe. PS. i do engage in business. my business activities make about $4k per week tyvm. I just like doing events too. It is the best thing I contribute, but also the most work. Will people pay for it rather than expect to earn money from it? I suppose we'll see what the brave new world has in store!

lol, nice try, once you're one of us you can never escape. Muhahahahahahaha ::cough:: ::hack:: ::hack:: hahaha!!!

:nicker:: Is this along the lines of "talk to the hand!". I dunno how the new policies will hit club owners, but if they hurt them I'd recommend they form a coalition to prevent this sort of "help" to their cause.

feted definition

Did I miss something? I don't think it's an adjective. I suppose it means celebrated elite? Well it was a worty down talking attempt ::golf clap::

Now for something constructive.

Want to make money? Use the landpass feature that nobody uses, to charge a cover. If you're club is worth it rather than simply a place to idle, people will pay it. It doesn't have to be a lot.

Alternatively get a financial backer. There are plenty of people with too much money or a lot of content skill who would happily pay you for the advertisement value. I'll give vehicles away as prizes at events if you'll put an R-Type banner up somewhere and announce who the creator was. People like Schwan and Anshe have enough money to invest L in good business.

Hmmmm... You both seem to assume a lot about people you know little or nothing about.

I personally think Cim is being a self-absorbed whiny pain in the ass. And I'm not impressed with your chiming in either.

I know exactly what goes into running a successful club here, both in terms of time and money. And I wouldn't call the endless rotation of cookie-cutter, hot thong, escort services successful clubs. I'm hoping that the changes to the economy will mean that the cream of the club owners come up with a place I would be willing to pay to go, rather than pay to avoid.

My partner and I ran a very successful club for several months until our design business started taking up too much of our time. We didn't have to do rate parties or have a continuous money lick set up to attract customers either. We provided a (then) unique atmosphere and events. We built almost everything we owned.. and bartered for scripting. We spent very little money putting on events, but we did spend a huge amount of time... more than we could afford long term. We ended up with a cult following. It was a lot of fun.

Currently we co-own an island sim -- without depending on dwell to defray our land expenses. So don't tell me I don't understand about land expenses either.

What I don't understand is the mean-spirited way in which some club owners feel they should get special treatment. No one subsidizes my business. Either my partner and I produce things that the public wants, or we don't say in business. If clubs produce a quality environment/experience then people will be happy to pay a few $L to go there -- just like in RL.

Oh btw.... have you considered looking for a sponsor for an event? We used to sponsor events in return for advertising all the time. Take a page from RL... look how sporting events, etc. are paid for.

Surreal