SL Needs to Learn to Appreciate Its Members

*applause*

Excellent post, Surreal. My sentiments exactly, every word of it.

hehe...that slipped under the radar huh....Best response I have seen in a very long time.

Nice Surreal. Awesome response...exactly my thoughts.

The reason events was largely contests was because this was what was funded. The reason there are so many desperate escorts (and a number of highly paid and experienced escorts at the other end of the scale) is due to public demand. We won't have the dance and get free money contests or the come meet our sex workers contests (whore is such a needlessly scathing word, don't you think) when people quit desiring them. The real events that will be hurt by this move won't be the mature events that are self supporting (dance clubs will still thrive and shout at you to tip their dancers, and gambling will be stronger than ever). The events that will be hurt, have already been hurt by the vanishing event support, are those that DO offer content choices, such as the poetry nights, drama nights and the other alternative events that need hosts to put in time and effort to make them happen.

Surreal mentioned that the primary issue of making events and the club surreal ran was time. It comes down to time. Is a content builder's time worth less when the content is events? We shall see if people are willing to support them at the same rate. As I mentioned elsewhere, this shift requires an enormous change in habit for event attendees. Costs have been downloaded to social users for the service they use. I am hearing people say over and over again to charge a small cover at the door. The problem is that a small cover will not begin to recoup costs of the time involved with events hosting. I am a professional events host and have actually studied in school advanced coursework that can be applied to this virtual job (BFA and MFA) though many excellent events hosts do fantastic jobs without my level of education. I mention my education only because we tend to think that only scripters and builders are applying outside knowledge to in-world employment. It requires $20 at the door from each attendee for me to make the same on events as I made under the linden/ club owner tip system that preceeded the new wild west fronteir of events hosting. This would have caused persons like me far less problem if we had had an opportunity to consult with Lindens first to conceive a bridging program or even solicit for needed scripts to help make this transition. I AM STILL IN SEARCH OF A SECURITY SCRIPT THAT WOULD SERVE AS A TICKET VENDOR / BOUNCER!

Those who build content and haven't clubbed for awhile seem to be suggesting that we charge $5 or $10 at the door. If 15 people come and pay (though my events have seen up to 30, most events I attend have around 15 attendees) that means $75-150 for an events host's time. My events take about 7 hours total (4 hours prep and 3 hours hosting) so this means that I will have made about $10-20L per hour with the suggested rates. Is this a fair estimation of what my time is worth compared to another ingame content creator's? What will people remember when they have quit playing second life? that amazing evening with friends when they did something they never thought they might do, or had a blast, or took great screen shots of the fun they had in the bankrobber scenario they took part in? Or will they remember that marvellous couch? for me, it would be the first. I appreciate the lovely things around (in fact, I love SL shopping) but it truly is the events and time out in the SL public world that I play (and pay) for.

Michi, it is quite common for responsible governments to undertake gender lens polcy analysis for policies made to impact a general public. It is not a red herring. It is a way of looking at the issue. The reason I bring it into the forum is primarily that I play SL for the people I meet there. I enjoy having a balance of males and females in the game. If more women than men are detrimentally impacted economically, this may influence the gender demographic within the game. That is why I see the gender lens policy analysis as being something useful for the Lindens to undertake: to preserve the balance of genders of players in SL.

In fact, most feminist organizations (several of which I have been involved with as a member, steering comittee member, board member, employee, writer, volunteer or even chairperson) applaud governmental efforts to undertake gender analysis of general policies. For instance: if the restructuring of unemployment insurance affects women disproportionately, the government's policy contains gender bias. It will impact women more than men. In our virtual society, the Lindens are the government. Because I am interested in preserving the integrity of the gender mix in SL, I brought up the idea of gender analysis for this policy shift. Who knows? Maybe most of the educational events teachers will be females? not sure, guess we'll see what comes! But I do know that when I voted at events (and therefore had to know who was hosting them) the person I IMED with votes was almost always female. Again, as I have said before, a formal study would be great, but my sense of the issue is that women will have less $L to spend as a whole (though naturally some women will have much more if they are trading $L for US$ on the GOM).

I would be happy to speak to you further about how I am hurting our cause. I want to assure you that I am completely in support of women and their endeavours, even when I don't agree with them. ~ Cherry

Oh, just to address one niggling lil thing: I never cried women are victims here. I never cried at all. and you can't make me. hehe.

And therefore you have a right to run whatever it is you want as long as it follows Linden rules.

I beg to differ. There are plenty of public areas that get used for running events. I myself have been running an educational event on a regular basis on Stage4 in Dore. Please do not make absolute statements unless they're true

You're just full of yourself. If you honestly think that dance clubs are the only thing of interest to anyone in SL, then you must not get out much. One could honestly and rationally say that either DarkLife, SimCast or Bedazzle independantly produce a lot more content in one month than you do in a year.

When it comes to technical assistance, you are ALWAYS your own best friend. MOST people I know on SL know enough about computers to troubleshoot any problem they come across. What they can't fix on their own, I often help them fix it...

Sometimes I think they ought to require a license to operate a computer, somewhat like operating a car. It'd be set up so that the more complicated the stuff you operate, the higher the class of license you'd need. Someone licensed to drive a car can't operate a motorcycle, bus or big rig for instance. It'd be the same with this, only it'd be along the lines of the more the user is capable of breaking it by their IDIOCY (yes, I'm blaming most computer problems people have on the people having the problem), the higher the license needed. SL would be along the lines of the computing equivilent of a big rig / 18wheeler license (not quite an airplane or helicopter, but up there).

SL is not a game. It is a unique piece of software that is in an often failed genre that has no name. Some call it the "Thing the is not a game" genre. Basically it looks like it COULD be a game, it sorta smells like a game but it's not really very game like... The only game play in SL is what we in the gaming industry call "Emergant Play". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_play

In the case of SecondLife, it's not so much a game as it is a game engine... But a game engine is in itself not a game... For instance, the Unreal Engine with no levels, scripts or otherwise any content is just a blank engine... SL is just about as much of a blank engine you can get and still have some minor ability to do something, even if there's no real game behind it... Suffice to say that Second Life is an engine, Dark Life is the game. Second Life is the engine, Sim Cast is the game. Do you catch my drift?

Bugs are handled in a triage fashion. Not "first come first serve". Ever been to an emergency room before? They take care of the more important stuff FIRST and THEN they fix the minor stuff.

The only one making it too expensive is you. Some people make enough money in SL to pay for their land. The Lindens aren't favoring them or hand selecting them, the users are. If you aren't making enough cash to pay for your land, then find something else to do with your land. As for being expensive... I used to own over a quarter of a sim, then something happened financially and it was too expensive so I went to a basic account. And you know what it costs me on a Basic account? ZILCH! All it costs me is the electricity and internet... Concidering I leave my computer running all the time and my internet is a flat rate, it basically costs me nothing to play SL...

And I've started making things, new things, things noone has seen in SL before... And I've already made a thousand lindens in the past week... and that's just off casual sales to my friends, i haven't even opened up a shop yet...

If all you're in SL for is to own land, then yeah, it's expensive. But look at the cost of owning REAL land... Still, you'll be hard pressed to find a place where you can own land in a seemless, persistant world... Game or no game...

Funnily you hit on one of the things I love about living in Central America. And for that matter many of the European countries I have traveled in.... Pay Toliets.

They are easy to find, clean, always stocked, have attendants, and are very cheap. (I have yet to see one that cost more than about a dime.) Compare that to the filthy public toliets I have seen all over the States. Yay pay toliets!!

My favorite toliet in the world.. Tangiers, Morocco, N. Africa. A small tile room with a large bucket of water... spotlessly clean.. less than a penny.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out...

You chose to include as part of your SL experience, accumulating a lot of land, building a club, hosting events. And now you want what you percieve to be top dollar for those efforts. That is a goal worth shooting for.

Where you go off the reservation is with this nonsense about being ripped off. You are not being ripped off. You may not care for Linden but they do have a formula and have to deal with an entire 'planet' and not just your paltry 23,000 sm (or whatever it is). In the real world this is one reason why California businesses are moving to Nevada or Pennsylvania businesses are moving to Ohio.

Please, leave. Someone will take your spot and will appreciate that the world does not orbit around them. I hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere however I wouldn't count on it if I were you. Me gets the feeling you'd find something to whine about regardless of the circumstance.

Good luck in your future ventures.

Bruno, Lucca: It's nice to see people so new with such great observational skills

...

There are clubs in this game?

*boggle*

Hey Schwanson, you said you would replace linden's event sponsorship with your own in order to have more dwell. You still mean it? I know you're busy. I contacted you in game, though, and never heard from you again. Should I keep buggin ya? or was this an offer made in the spirit of the moment? BTW: There ARE fewer events now. The sexy avatar and look at my gothic butt contests are as alive now as ever, but what is missing is those few precious events like the poets nights: the fun stuff that wasn't about gambling or shopping. If it is about gambling or shopping, then it's life as usual right? Also, i note that there are even fewer educational classes. Interesting, hunh?

Thing is, even the pay toilets are usually sponsored in part by taxes. It is simply that taxes are not enough to support all of a country's infrastructure needs adequately enough to please travellers who are used to the luxury of toilets in each locale they visit.

I mention the pay toilets issue because sewers are things that are paid for by taxes, as well as highways, education, postal services, etc etc. Too many libertarians and anarchists say get rid of government and taxes without thinking of the kind of change in their daily realities this would mean.

Some public things are worth supporting. I like having a toilet in my actual house and not having to walk to the pizzaria to give them a quarter to use theirs. Imagine if you paid a private company for the privilege of being able to shit in your bathroom?

Actually, this post hints at an interesting point: if what is of value to casual users is going to clubs, you would expect that going to clubs is what will collect the lion's share of their Lindens. It would be interesting if the net result of this was to shrink the market for goods by transferring the L$ into cover charges for clubs.

so shamefull post

i agree 100% with Surreal and Ferran's vision

what i remember from RL si that clubs charge you for entrance, famous clubs get their money and are well visited.

What about the smaller one?
I hang out in a friend's club, it was not as big as the professional club, but was very tastefull and intime, he asked nothing to come in but everybody was trowing cash in the bucket because it was higher quality, of course we where friends, but hey even with our donations he was still having a day job to fund the place

do business from your dream or do business for your dream

here is the choice

Whoa...long thread

I've been to dozens of Cimone's events. She is always fun, takes an active role in events and is certainly very generous.

I can understand her anger, somewhat. Overlooking her obvious frustration, I think her point is this. Linden customer service has gone from alot of in-game presence to bare minimum recently (for whatever reason). When I joined SL, it had 10,000 subs, but now that is doubled. I doubt LL staff has doubled, so an errosion in CS is evident.

I spent 4 years in Everquest. At first, gamemasters were prevalent, but over time they withered away, eventually giving way to a largely un-navigable script form, which led to nowhere. That situation had everything to do with me NOT playing EQ 2. Sadly LL is headed down this same road. Perhaps its growing pains, but I've seen it with other platforms.

The quote " Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out", is kind of like a bank saying take your money elsewhere. It's not healthy for SL in the long run.

Maybe I'm missing something, but no one gets paid to organize these events on IRC or in RL. Somehow they happen anyway. People who are concerned with making money are always limited to what is "capitalistically feasible." People who do things for their own enjoyment can do whatever they want.

I'm amazed at where the feminist movement has come if you and your attitudes are the dominate mindset. What you are suggesting is little more than perpetuating sexist stereotypes in order to be recognized as female (as being female seems to give you the angle you need to play to be included). Somehow, feeling included or self-satisfied at using gender to be recognized. Wow! Times have changed from when true feminists sought equality and nothing more. Now we need to analyze roles and thoughts of each gender (oops, only one gender mentioned) prior to implementing policy.

At least if this is the prevailing thinking of so-called feminists I can at least do my own stereotyping and lump them in with every other special-interest group that continues to seek to divide us soley based on race or gender.

Weedy, you haven't been in SL long enough to make a statement about "erosion of CS".

Shoulda seen it in Beta.

You'll never get what you want Cimone until you and every one of your friends tiers down to basic.... Trust me, it feels real nice.

And as a bonus, all these jealous flamers will have nothing to cry about!

Please continue. I haven't had a good laugh in a while.

No shit!
In Beta, Haney used to go around personally inviting each and every person who was online to attend the single upcoming event.
There was a Linden at every event. In fact, Lindens HELD their own events every day.
You could ask for a Linden to do just about everything for you... including "come see what I just made" or even just invite them over for no reason and hang out with them for hours, and talk about the most varied subjects, including their personal lives.
I now eagerly await a post by Prokofy Neva telling me how feted and inner we are, and that our iron grip on SL is preventing noobies from overthrowing the oldbie hegemony

Everyone is able to have "There Second Life" SL gives you choises, lots of them. You make them. You make "Your second life what you want it to be". If that means spending money to do it then you have to decide who much do you really want it. If you do want it you will pay for it. It is like other hobbies. You pay for stuff to other hobbies. You do because you enjoy it. If you enjoy it enough then you will see this as small thing you have to put up with. If you do not realy enjoy it. "Find a new Second Life that is for you."

It is for socializing Only Hmmm. You might think so. but there are meny that do not. There are people that do not want to socialze much in SL. They like building or scripting, or selling stuff. Some socialzation is required but not the reason they are here.

Clubs = CONTENT Hmmmm I will not even comment on that one!

If clubs go away SL will die. Hmmmm Can we try it to see if you are right?

You are right dwell (now called traffic) does not pay that much! Dwell does count for the US$ bonus they give.

Poor performance needs to be fixed. I agree with that. Hmmm clubs = lots of scripts, poof particalls and lots of agents (AV's) dong lots of anamations. I have very little of these in the sim I am mostly paying for and do not have much lag. (FPS avg 2500) Hmmm could there be some connection?

I am not saying people should not have clubs! They do provide a service for those that want that service. They also provided a place to drop in and rate others so they could be rated back. That is gone too. Everyone can go to them or not go to them. (Now that the rate for L$ is gone! Will I go? I think NOT!) It all depends on what they choise for "There Second Life!"

Okay, question - If second Life isnt about socialising then WHY are all the top spots always clubs?

Now - if you can answer that question honestly then WHY have Linden labs chosen to cancel event support & raise the cost of rating to $24? I'll answer that for you - its because Linden Labs listen to the dominant 5% in Second Life and these are ALL people who only ever get into game to make $'s from someone else.Don't beleive me? go check out their group in game - its there if you look.

The original poster of this thread was right on the nail - go look in game for the facts - since these changes dwell has plummeted we've lost almost 8000 off our weekly average and the list of cancelled accounts is growing.Whoever it was said that all that SL will be left with are the technofreaks is correct.

I've got NO problem with the scriptors and builders in this game but its time to wake up and smell your coffee because they ARE a minority and a tiny minority at that.If you want a good rp game you go to EQ2, if you want FPS you go to StarWars Battlefonts what you dont do is play Second Life for these things.I run a place in SL that is rarely out of the top 3 and never out of the top 5 so please please PLEASE dont reply to this and tell me what players in SL want because I KNOW what they want - they want to meet other people and have a good time while doing that.

A virtual world full of empty buildings is a total waste of time - you sh1t on the 'little man' for long enough and he WILL pack up and go elsewhere - mistakes have been made and Linden Labs need to make good those mistakes, and SOON, or you'll be the only one wearing your latest skin,the only one trying out your latest animation and the only one sat in your virtual art gallery.