If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

To me the problem is that they actually BELIEVED the TOS as written, which are now being rewritten by some unknown hand in some unknown way!

I can't think of any business RL or SL that isn't "at risk" from halfwitted moralists!

In RL I have been a Ham Radio operator for many years. Doing evil things like emergency communications in disasters and (gasp) even having fun on occasion by talking to people without "official" approval! I am not kidding, I once got a two hour lecture on "stealing revenue from the phone company" because I was using ham radio and not the land line phone to talk to people overseas.

It is also truly amazing what happens to peoples electronics, computers, TVs and stereos when the find out I am in the neighborhood! I have adopted the policy of erecting my antennas then leaving all of the rest of my equipment in the box for a couple of months until the complaints die down.

MOST of the time when I point to the boxes and explain what I am doing then people accept that I haven't magically "hexed" their whatever. In one case however even twenty years after I have moved away I am still being blamed for one lady's garage door not working right!

As a result I am very familiar with the mob mentality and bullying that goes into moralistic crusades of this sort.

Simply put: there is NO reason, there are NO limits, and facts simply don't matter.

EVERY SL business is "at risk" in this environment!

Yes but people know about these things and know where they can be found you can walk by a store in real life or find a site for a store and see what they have. You assume a local place called Shangy's Beer havent has drinking but may have no idea if it was just called like Shangy's Haven people know the name of the place or what they sell. Most grocery stores sell cigarettes people know this. Also people keep pushing this gambling is illegal in the U.S stuff but thats not true untill the bill passes through senate which hasnt happened yet..... Also on places that track this stuff and tagged to the bill itself it doesnt actually make the claim that internet gambling itself is illegal. The bill is to prevent financial institutions from taking or receiving credit from what they claim is unlawful Internet gambling Also note that they have tried to push this through senate earlier this year already by tagging it to the bottom of another bill passing through senate needless to say senate didnt allow them to do so.

The department of justice has long held the belief that the wire act passed back awhile ago pertained to online gambling. A judge read it as meaning that the wire act only covered horse betting and betting on sports and contest. Poker and games of chance where not upheld. In 2002 the Department of justice tried to fight the judges decision and tried to have it applied to a broader specturm to include poker and games of chance this was denied by the 5th circuit court of appeals and the supreme court has never made a decision counter acting the appeals court decision to uphold the judges interpretation of the wire act. The act in 2006 makes no mention of how they plan to actually claim internet gambling is unlawful when the courts themselves have stated otherwise. For now its a claim made by the department of justice in hopes that this will pass through senate and until that happens they cant really do anything about it (at least in the sense of calling it actual law they can pick people up for it but at the moment it not being law entirely kind of makes any type of prosecution kind of weak in that sense).....

Regardless of Colette everyone that makes a business is taking a gamble be it real life or SL. There are many differences in real life and SL as far as businesses goes and how people get around to them. We dont have local malls in SL that we can walk to and know a store name that we like to go to. In SL's case we search for what we want and tp there but when you take search out of the equation it makes it hard to find a business or service you are looking for. SImply stated if we were unable to find anything in SL we would have to literally scour thousands of locations just to get a bearing of what is where and how would we get there? Well gee we'd need to use the map and TP to every sim and look around those sims.

All im saying is LL needs to be careful what they base their judgement calls on if they start running around cutting everything everyone finds offensive in some way we will all be dressed the same be the same shade of grey and everything will look uniform and you wont be able to find a thing you want. Yes casino owners in the US are at risk if this bill passes through senate and becomes law but again the whole Virtual world area is still a bit of a grey area even with that act because it'd depend how one got the L and what they plan to do with it after the fact. If they went and spent the money they wont back in SL how can the people even touch it. If they got the money freely as well how can they touch it.

Its a grey area and the bill isnt passed. Also the act protects LL in this sense they cant actually be prosecuted for what someone has put on their servers they cna be asked to try and control them to a degree but its ultimately the person at fault. The point is the law people are so willfully pushing takes out any legality for any type of game in SL at all. This gets rid of slingo tringo and anything if its enforced and cuts down massively on alot of things. But people that are pushing to get rid of casino's in SL dont care about the law they just want to get rid of them because they want to get rid of the lag or some other rubbish.

As i stated earlier most of these problems can be resolved by simply talking with the casino owner or the club owner and asking them to tone some things down if its hitting you that badly. Most people dont take the time to do that though or if they do they go off and start chewing into the guy right away.

Ask any business owner anywhere int ht world - Advertising and brining in new customers is as vital a part of their business as the "bricks and sticks"!

It really doesn't matter what your product nor how good it is, if people don't know about it then the business will fail.

As a result Advertising is usually the second biggest item in any businesses expenses (after taxes).

Sure you can "work around" almost any restrictions, but at the moment there is no indications that this crusade will stop at advertising, nor that any workarounds won't be removed somehow.

In talking to casino owners, I notice that a lot of them have actually had property "removed", including land confiscated

Going back to the first round of this crusade, try going to the "JailBait" site today - the business has been totally destroyed!

This is an interesting story. I fail to see what it has to do with gambling in Second Life, however.

Gambling was "quasi legal " at best and its still not determined. In spirit its most definitely illegal. If the casino owners were making millions a year Ill guarantee you the feds would have stepped right in with court orders.

Its just the limited scale that reduces the whole thing.

Kind of like is it okay to steal a candy bar when the cops are more worried about you robbing banks. They wont hardley notice ...

Now Linden Labs always said your responsible for your own content.

Always did.

People just assumed gambling was fine becuase so many other peopel were doing it.

Kind of like people assumed music sharing was fine a few years back.

Many try to equate the risk of running a business with organized gambling. The more I see the argument the less I think of it.

Of course in the strictest sense any risk activity is a gamble that you will win or lose. But this isnt "GAMBLING" the organized activity of directly becoming in a game of chance with the hopes to make money. Or offering those services.

A casino is organized gambling - the stock market may be a "gamble" but its not organized gambling.

I hope I impress on people the difference becuase people throwing it into the dicussion are just trying to muddy the waters. Intentionally or uninintentionally to "prove their point"

If something is illegal in your country or forbidden by your religion just don't do it. That doesn't mean it is illegal/forbidden to others.

There is a legal issue but it only concerns LL and the different states where gambling is outlawed, as long as you don't use casinos.

Now if you use casinos in SL and it is forbidden by your country then you might be in trouble some day ubt LL will be in trouble before you, this is my point.

The issue is Internet gambling may be illegal in ALL US states - particularily the one Linden Labs is in.

There is some debate on this. Linden Labs has chosen a more cuatous approach. Not THE safest approach but they are trying to be careful.

Im not saying in that sense i mean any business is a gamble or a risk. The point is you may or may not see a return

There isnt any debate on it really..... People that claim its illegal at the moment are wrong however if it passes through senate they will then be right. The problem again though is the bill itself that they are currently trying to get through senate is an end run around a previous ruling regarding the wire act. State laws have always been prevalent as to whether or not Internet gambling was illegal or not and even then it was a Grey area. The problem with the act in 2006 nothing i see clearly states it as being illegal to gamble itself. I see lots of references to financial institutions are not allowed to credit or receive money to and from internet gambling sites.

There is just a mass grey area at the moment until we see this pass senate and actual guide lines are put out by them and they declare it truly illegal to gamble online or play games of chance. Just remember a large chunk of SL could be targeted by this law if it does cover what the DOJ wants it to.

It won't be furries, I'll bet you that one. I believe that furries are the largest single group of users of SL. Though, because of open registration numbers can no longer be counted accurately.

I did have a bet on who it might be, but I forgot as I went reading the rest of the thread.

No but they could ban the advertising of furry locations Gambling spots are a big chunk of SL's businesses but they still restricted that. What she is saying is that people cant be banning due to personal preference of something or else everyone will end up a target.

I disagree that gambling is as big or bigger than furry. FurNation--a single furry website gone Second Life--owns, at my last count, eight sims. Then there's Fox Valley (at least another four), Isle of Wyrms (two), Lusk (at least one), NSW (stands for? and probably one sim or more, I haven't been able to find them since I was TPed in by a friend to buy an av).

And that's just the places I can think of off the top of my head. In February 2004 Lusk said that they had 13,000 unique costomers (and NSW 8,000 with a 40% overlap).

Highest selling VGI equipment package: SLX Sales Rank : #883
Ice Wyrmling (young dragon) Avatar: SLX Sales Rank : #241

I wish I could say what that means, or how many items a particular vendor has sold, but those stats aren't available, so I got what I could, but ONE avatar is better selling than most casino equipment, though I do know that there are about 959 people who own any wyrmling (they are invited to join a group and the wyrmlings group has 959 people in it, Wyrms (the adult) group is 1,139 large). Largest casino group: 429, second: 404, third: 329.

I doubt it will be furries per se. It might be something sexual though. Somthing they see as "unsightly" such as escorting, or gorean slave actions or something like that.

If it were furries theyd probably target yiffing advertizements or something.

Yes however business wise there is alot more then simply VGI alot of people make their own or buy the stuff in world.... I said bigger business wise..... I assure you there are more casino's in SL then there are furry locations but thats a given..... Also group wise most people dont join casino groups because of Spam.

Also Colette they'd run themselves into the ground cutting out stuff to do with Sex or Gorean both are pretty big industries in SL as well. Sex being one of the biggest among most of SL. This isnt the teen grid and its not a game meant for people under 18 if they continually cut down on the major markets they will find that the screwed themselves pretty thoroughly for any real future.

My point is proved by what you said also Colette. Saying it will be something people find unsightly. If we ban everything people find unsightly for some reason or another that leaves us with women covered head to toe like in some middle eastern countries and some other wacky rules that have nothing to do with being in a virtual world. People need to stay away from SL if they are going to push what they find unsightly as rule period.

For the mentally impaired among us: "Ham Radio" is "quasi legal at best" and only sanctioned in a few parts of the world. "Spys and subversives" are the only people who want to have radio transmitters of their ownl.

Substitute any activity you care to name for "Ham Radio" and the same fallacious argument applies:

"Gun Owners", "Greedy Landlords", "Whoremongers", "Homosexual fashion designers" .... The list is endless.

Nowhere in any of the official announcements have I seen ANY indication that ANY authority felt that LL was even potentially violating any US laws with the gambling! NONE!

My point remains: just what really is behind this and where is it headed?

MY business plans for SL are definitely on hold until such time as these questions are clearly resolved! I urge every potential business owner to do the same, lest their "quasi legal at best" business suddenly disapear one day.

Your not going to impress me by calling me mentally impared for not getting your ham radio reference. While its wonderfully passive agressive of you, its counter productive.

I know ham radios at one time were legal in New York State, my Father had a 3000 Watt operators license in the 1960's. If you are referring to someone operating without a license, well if the FCC or equivilent in whatever country had regulations in effect, and someone broke those regualtions- then they would have been in violation.

Gambling in the US is basically Illegal in all places where legal gambling hasnt been set up. This is one of the reasons Internet gambling is seen as already illegal by many authorities. They just cant find statutes to prosecute it under. The spirit however is that unregulated, unsanctioned gambling in the US is illegal. Period. If it werent - no one would need oversight to open casinos in FIRST LIFE in the United States.

This all arrives from many restrictions that were put in place around the turn of the 20th century. Gambling was originally made illegal becuase it was a vice that was seen to hurt society, ruin families, etc.

If the issue is agaisnt unregulated gambling being generally Illegal in the United States, the battle ground isnt a 3d online game where less than "2.5 million" American based accounts have been set up.



I dont think you mean to refer to your own argument as fallacious. So I assume you mean the argument against such activities. I think there will be added restrictions on advertizing activities that Linden Labs feels will give them a bad image. Im not saying I agree with curtailing them, Im saying that I see it happeneing.




If anyones in a business activity thats seen as a VICE by the outside world - then yes theres a risk to the ability to advertize. The Lindens have shown that.

It isnt the Lindens fault, however, that news agencies will sensationalize things like gambling and sex in their 3d Virtual world. And though I hate to see peoples freedoms compromised on legal activities - I dont see the Lindens risking their business to stand up against public opinion.

They are playing firefighting mode now rather than push back mode. The headlines would have been a lot bigger if it had been the opposite "Second Life of vice and sin refuses to cooperate with federal investigators"

Imagine how well people's business would thrive if no one can log in becuase of a court order.


While Im aware it wouldnt have gotten to that point yet - It certainly could have, its happened before. Linden Labs is being proactive.

Again, they could have simply banned gambling completely. They didnt go that route.

LL hurt their business more by curtailing current players rights. New players arnt going to make them money and they will lose new signups as people lose their rights in an online world to do anything at all. Public opinion or not they are likely to lose more of their current customer base if they follow that route in which case something they screw themselves as a business either way. Public opinion cant really facilitate what goes on in an online world or all games would of been shut down in the 80-90's when they first arrived and it was considered geeky and underground type stuff to be a gamer.

If LL let public opinion dictate what they do they simply wont be around long enough for anyone to care because the will quash most of their user base in its entirity and piss off a good deal of business owners. It became popular because of its openness and now its losing that edge and if they continue this trend they will lose it entirely and it'll be worse PR for them then anything sex or gambling could do. If you bothered reading the act passed in 2006 LL would actually be protected under their guidelines as they dont actually own the content that people are using. They havent given a reason as to why its seedy in that light.

My point is letting close minded public opinion rule how you make decisions in a game is never a good thing. Its whats killed off so many things that people do. Public Opinion stating a game like SWG was to hard led to to many people being able to become proficient in the game and those lost a huge core of their user base because of it. If anything LL should learn from the past that Public Opinion dictated in a game companies movements are never a good thing unless they actually HELP everyone and make Everyone happy not just a few people.

Online gambling was never really controlled state to state or where gambling was already set up because its to grey and area and courts have ruled otherwise on the matter of online gambling being illegal. As i have stated numerous times the act in 2006 is simply just an end run around something the Department of Justice cant get overturned in court. Whether or not it makes it through senate and what guidelines they draw out of it are still up to question but as it stands the laws is far to broad. Also alot of actions taken by the department of justice on the matter were found to violate global laws.

And again you missed some points in earlier areas of this. People have talked with casino owners that have had land taken from them. You have a little to learn about gamers and people that go into online worlds in general Colette they dont give a hoot what the hell public opinion is towards them. Public opinion states alot of things and everything would be G rated if public opinion had its way. Its a mob mentality that only leads to more trouble. Closing people out to the real world doesnt help anything. But this is exactly what happens when you let the government raise your kids for you.

Parents need to be parents and stop worrying about what their kids get into by lying and the like and deal with their own kids. Most parents that are overly protective of their kids are the biggest hypocrites in the world and probably arnt around enough to even take care of their kids so they want everything in the world out there to be safe guarded towards their kids so they dont have to actually parent. This is what so called "Public Opinion" tends to be people trying to push their protective coating onto everyone else.

The U.S is really the only country in the world so deluded about the matter though and they keep pushing the envelope. Gambling outlawed because some people dont know when to stop playing and go away or they have an addictive personality and should know to stay away but they dont out of choice. This is just showing that the Government doesnt trust that we can make our own decisions or parent on our own.

Lets see public opinion in the U.S .... stems from mainly overt religious views over protective parents and a government that doesnt trust its own people. This prevents many things such as the lack of allowing gay marriage, People being persecuted for worshiping certain ways. Censoring of everything possible Closing out things that should be a persons choice. Deciding control whether or not a woman can abort her child and many other things that make no sense and should have no bearing on governmental issues. These arnt things they should be deciding for people period.

And pardon me but we do live in a democracy and correct me if im wrong but people are supposed to have a say of what goes on in a democracy not just the people they choose to represent them. Which is how politics at the moment has been going inside the U.S. They continue to take away people's freedoms in the real world and now its happening in a virtual world where we go to get away from this garbage. If you truly feel bad that it comes to people's rights being squashed then fight for thsoe rights instead of acting like your on the other side because as i stated if they let public opinion rule as domain SL will be no more not because they fought it but because they themselves killed it off.

All im saying is something i have stated numerous times. LL need to be cautious of what they let through on public opinion or they will end up killing off their user base which in turn will kill off SL itself. Which I dont want to see and im sure you dont either colette. I've been here almost 2 years and i dont want to see SL die. I love it here and it makes me sad when i see game companies make moves like this. Public opinion isnt law colette just because some people may think something is ickky doesnt mean it should be gotten rid of or restricted.

Lets try a slightly different approach.

1) Eventually Online gambling will either be regulated or illegal in the United States. The Feds will be given authority to enforce one or the other. The Current gray area will not last. Legislators will not allow an unregulated gambling loophole to last forever.

Do you not feel this to be the case?


2) While us as users dont care what America and the world thinks of what goes on in Second Life - Linden Labs does. They do not want bad press. They are eager to obtain corporate investment and mainstream ("normal" perhaps boring) residents

Do you not see this as Lindens aim?


Therefore given these two things why is it surprizing that Linden labs is taking steps to distance themselves from an appherent tacit approval of gambling?

Additionally why would them "cleaning" up the omnipresence of sexual advertizing surprize you?



I personally agree with the gambling restrictions. I think its disappointing the Federal governement is so tied up in business as usual they cant write simple to understand laws anymore.


I dont want further restrictions but I see them coming.




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While you claim we live in a democracy thats technically not true.

A true democracy would be 100% mob rule, States rights would not exist. Whatever the majority felt would pretty much go. On the plus side this would be a very change sensitive system and when mob opinion changed so would legislation.

We (in the US) supposedly live in a Constitutionally limited republic. Meaning most of our governing is supposed to be carried out by representatives within powers established by that document. Our rights, such as freedom of speech- are supposedly guaranteed by the same document.

What we really have, like most Modern "democracies"- is a hybrid of an Elected constitutional government and an entrenched Bureaucracy. Pure inertia keeps the whole bloated system running.

While in many countries we are free to speak our mind, our opinions matter even less than our votes becuase any law in support of our position will come with 25 riders that bury the purpose of the original proposal.

The point is if LL kill themselves off to any type of user base by overly restricting stuff to be "nice" and "pretty" in public view they will lose their player base and thus will lose the support for most of the big companies short of an online meeting place place and they wont make enough money to survive at all. The same coin your putting out as to their actions has the flip side of being just as dangerous because of a player revolt not because of public opinion but because of them turning their back on what is actually important entirely and that is the user base of SL without it they would die off plain and simple.

Keep in mind regulations work to a degree but in a world like Second Life they can also spell the end of it. If they over regulate things and start regulating sex and stuff and cutting out major markets from advertising they will eventually entirely kill themselves off this is what im trying to get across to you. Yes they wont allow an unregulated gambling loop hole to last forever but at the same time what is constituting gambling. Most of what SL is isnt a brick and mortar casino there isnt a dealer its just a computer program randomly generating a texture and matching up with it to decide whether or not you wont. The other end is poker which the texas hold em type tables how is that any different then going over to your friends house on a friday night and gambling which each other for some spare cash.

Sure people drop down some large money at times But thats there decisions really. More regulations may be coming but more regulations is a bad thing. I dont want regulations because they are far to limiting and cutting out advertising kills off business if you've ever had to run a business or worked free lance you'd likely know this. Advertising gets your name out there which in turn generates patrons which in turn generates sales which in turn helps keeps your business afloat. Advertising is a key element business wise and its necessary for a business to succeed in the modern world. Its even more important in a virtual world like second life especially when you consider how second life is. Its not like your local neighborhood where you know all the shops and have a local newspaper the delivers adverts for the people.

The point is where would Coke be Pepsi, Scion, Toyota, H&R Block and many other real world businesses be without their advertising ? No one would know who they are and they would go for the better name manufacturers. My point is simply that cutting off advertising kills off the mainstream of the industries and they may survive but they will be at the under belly and be harder and harder to find. Sure tobacco and alcohol arnt really advertised alot (well aclohol is qutie a bit smirnoff and the like etc...) but people know about them. These Truth ads advertise smoking in a bad press method but its still advertisign it.

I dont see SL surviving very well if they end up restricting advertisign for even more of the large industries in SL. Which is why following public opinion is dangerous for an online game. If people dont like sex stay away from it plain and simple its not hard to avoid it. The same goes for everything else. Deliberately going out and searching for something and going there and then being appalled by it is laughable to me. The point is restrictions are a dangerous tool in a world like SL that survives mainly on commerce of user created content. People need to be able to find what they are looking for or that industry dies out.

Sure a cigarette company cant put ad's in a magazine but you can go to a smoking outlet and they can advertise locally and you see their name when you walk by the store or if you look it up in a directory it is there. Thats the point here. They are cutting out advertising of places which means they cant even go on places as a casino its not just taking out classifieds or something and thats going to get worse if they start relying on public opinion of a matter in regards to what they do. There is a teen version of second life as well that doesnt have all this stuff. Having credit card verification wouldnt stop the kids from getting in it would simply make the account holder take more responsibility.

People act like credit cards are some kinda blocker but to many parents readily give their kids their credit cards to sign up for online games (WoW as an example.) and then dont actually regulate what their kids have installed on the computer or look into what they are subscribing to. My main point is that the flipside of what your saying is just as dangerous to LL if they restrict to much.

As SL becomes more Disney and "family safe" etc ad naseum - It will open up the market for another 3D world to steal all of those uncomfortable with such a place.

We had a similar discussion in Resident Answers recently but the concept of those who dont wish to live in a mainstream world being a niche was lost on many.

Although I disagree with you on gambling - becuase I feel the spirit of the law is already against what constitutes gambling in SL =>

I dont disagree that it would be great if most freedoms could be maintained forever.

I just dont think it will happen.

I think that if were lucky - Advertizing will more be restricted , the adult/ fringe / naughty / whatever things will be allowed to continue but with lowerd visibility.

If were not lucky. Many will be shopping for another online world

Well it was meant as hyperbole (look it up!), but you seem to have proven my point to be literally true. Too bad.

The legal power limit for ham radio in the US since circa 1948 has been 1000W, now defined by output power rather than "power supplied to the final amplifier stage" for technical reasons. Please at least get your facts straight.

*I* have been licensed since 1961 and have held an Amateur Extra class license since 1976.



HMM " they just can't seem to find the statutes ..."

Sounds like the activity must be LEGAL to me. Unpopular among government circles maybe, but LEGAL!

Just like every one of the examples I cited - that is why I cited them.

How often do we hear about the "urgent" need to ban firearms? They just can't seem to find the statutes there either.

It wasnt hyberbole; I dont need to look it up. You used a direct quote of mine and then said for those who are mentally impared refering directly to those who didnt get your reference (and thus me). Its so far from hyperbole thats its literally more of an exageration to call it such.

- 3000 watts is what I remember him telling me but the conversation was 20 years ago, its possible I have it wrong - I have no idea which "stage" he was referring to, Im not a radio operator.

Even though my information may be incorrect my point was that it was legal as far as I knew at least in the 60's in New York. And you just said you are liceneced where you live so you are supporting my point that its not quasi-legal, but actually legal.

Before you go celebrating. The fact is gambling is illegal in all States except when overseen by the appropriate authority. The statutes predate the internet. As the internet evolved Legislatures have not kept up with the speed of technology change and how laws should be applied to it.

Therefore even though legal its what the authorities would see as a loophole. Thus them trying to use a 1970's anti gambling law to apply. And thus the 2006 Act.

While you may enjoy winning an arguement such as it is , it doesnt change these conditions.

To celebrate technology trumping law is a bit self defeating.

As to firearms , firearms laws in ReaL Life have to work within precident of cases decided with the Second Ammendment as a limiter.

The Second Ammendment does not apply to Second Life.

*kicks herself for spending so many L$ on schoolgirl outfits and sighs*

Oh well, maybe I can win it all back at the casino...

Uhm. When I visit a "gaming center", I deposit lindens. I haven't spend one USD on this game. It's no different then playing with chips.

As far as it being against your religion, that's to bad for you. I didn't even know that there were religions in Second Life... See how new I am?!