If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

I have to add a perspective not discussed (that I can see).

An adult gaining sexual delight in having sex with what appertains to be a child (if it wasn't then why the dressing up to look like one) is morally wrong.

An 'adult' dressing up to look like a child, so they can be defiled and used as a child would be by an adult, given this situation, is morally wrong.

Are these 'adults' custodians of rl children? Would they develop their own off spring to their own levels of morallity? Isn't that what parents do?

Those that know they are wrong, usually try and side step the real pointed issues, with 'other similar' subjects, to mask and justify, not just to the outside world, but to them selves, why it should be acceptable to a society.

Drug Barons state, well if we didn't sell them coke, someone else would!

Try messing with any of my family, and see what laws I'll use on you... the law of the jungle will be one.

So this is where the discussion moved to..

Mari

this is supposedly a gambling discussion.

So we need to legislate YOUR morality and make it apply to everyone in the world?

This is precisely the point that Pan Fan was making in the first post of this thread - YOU think that X is "morally wrong", Pan thinks gambling is, *I* have still a different set.

Do we ban them all or ???



Yes in RL I have two "natural born sons"and two by adoption, all now over 30 years old. I took (and still take) my task as their parent very seriously. When they were little I was careful to teach them MY standards of morality, which includes not caving in to bullies no matter what the cost nor how self righteous they appear.

Personally I have struggled all my life with these questions of morality.

The best standard I have seen actually comes from the BDSM community: "safe, sane and consensual". With some thought it really covers just about everything.

One of the delights of Second Life is that "safe" becomes almost a non-issue.

The Islamic concept of "higher Jihad" (which the terrorists hate BTW) expresses this very well as the battle between the person that we are called to be by God and the person we actually are. I am sure there is a Moslem community in your area which can explain this much better than I ever could.

I have answers which work for me, I make no pretense that they are universal.



Please look into a mirror on that one. "Acceptance" has never been one of my life goals, I am too intelligent and too rich for that ever to be a realistic goal. Donald Trump and Martha Stewart are two well known examples of this kind of demonization (discrimination).



What relevance does this have to the topic?



Mine too!

However this has NEVER been about abuse of real children, but of scary fantasies.

Can't you tell the difference between fantasy and reality? Most 5 year olds can!

In fact to me one of the critical issues of all this is that it is getting in the way of finding real abusers of children of and stopping that abuse!

Supposedly.

(Besides, this is features suggestions, not resident discussions...)

Mari

Wait... if someone in a child avatar is a child, does this mean that I'm a bushbaby?

YAY! I have a tail in RL! And big ol' eyes! And a nice butt, finally, not the flat thing I've been carting around for years!

Wait. No I don't.




Sorry. Um... yeah.

Ageplay isn't paedofilia or child abuse, but there's a grey area with the law, so LL should do what it's gotta do.
Gambling, again a grey area, but makes a tonne of cash and is a major draw to the community, so the lawyers should really figger it out and let us know the deal.

Is that on topic enough?

If you do not like what is on TV on in the newspaper on in Second Life no one is forcing you to do it!

You cannot make everyone happy. Something will ALWAYS offend someone.

Linden is in the US in San Francisco. We are a bit more open to other beliefs. We do not blow ourselves up to make a point. Also what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home it there business, not mine yours or the governments. Lots of people would not agree with that and like to PUSH their so called morals on everyone.

So since SL is world wide it will make some people unhappy. That is fine then go find something else to to. No one is forcing you to be on SL.

Personally I would like to see religion and politics banned from SL, but that is not going to happen is it?

I think this thread should be closed. I agree with Jopsy Pendragon on Godwin's Law those references are out of line.

I do not like gambling but have no problem with adults gambling. I just ignore it in SL.

But having sex with kid avatars is another matter, cannot be ignored!

Not sure what everyone else's point was at this time on sex with child avatars.

I can actually disprove that.
13,000 posts and no natzi comparisons.

Well, it's not actually a discussion as such though.
Hmm...

I think some of us's point is... it's none of our business.

Okay. I'll flip flop on this issue.. just for a moment of self-amusement. (oh god, am I enjoying this? It must be immoral, someone start a thread pointless thread to stop me! )

1) SecondLife is less than 5 years old.
2) No avatar in SecondLife is older than SecondLife.
3) All sex and gambling within SecondLife involves 'virtual minors'
4) Ban everything except child-safe content.

5) Or let's not, say we did, and anyone that thinks different can go bankroll a world that will appease their "lock the children in the basement until they're old people" mentality towards life.



Draco- You jinxed it! Someone's gonna jump into that thread now!

So eloquently put but obviously not read and understood, as yet

So basically you are the type of person that would limit freedoms based on your tastes...You are saying you lack the ability to choose what to look at and need someone else to keep the world clean to your standards. What if thier standards are more strict than yours?
Since SL is not a game, it must exist based solely on peoples ability to interact with each other socially. As social envoirment rules against non-concensual interaction (attacks and etc. make sense), but if you start outlawing consensual interaction between people, then you start crippling SL.
Age-play is not something a lot of people enjoy, and many find uncomfortable, but they don't have to engage in SL if they don't want to. Just because some people object to it is no reason to ban it. I object to religon in nay form, are you going to ban that from SL? Most people (atleast publically) object to BDSM, ban that from SL and you will lose half (or more) of the customer base. Where are you going to stop?
Only idiots agree and cheer when thier freedoms are cut from under them.

It seems you missed the point if that is what you think...this is a discussion about applying someone elses morals to consensual behaviour between ADULTS. Even if one or both (or More) decided to take on Child AVs, they are still ADULTS IRL (Atleast they would be if SL did it's *%^& job and did RL age verification).

This is the first step in deciding what is acceptable consentual play between ADULTS in SL. Which is not only morally wrong IMO (as that is between the involved ADULTS), but is stupid from a business sense, since SL has no attraction greater than the freedom to be who you want to be. Lose that and SL has nothing to offer.

I rp a child in SL.. and no, for me it isnt sexual and although I am aware that there is a dark side to ageplay, all the ageplayers I have come across, do not engage in this.

It isnt paedophilia in any way at all.. and I have noticed tonight that child avatars are to be banned on SL.. well thats fine, but the Lindens will lose out, because I for one will not be paying them any more money,

SL is supposed to be escapism and I find it absurd that they can allow violence sims where murders can take place, whorehouses, drug dens etc.. erm aren’t these all illegal in FL too?

just a thought!

Yes , but there are already a half dozen recent Age Play threads - Most are still open just people have stoped discussing.

This was one that said if they are going to restrict age play (which they supposedly have) they should also come down on gambling.

Then we went on as to whether gambling belongs. I think the Age Play threads (in Resident Answers and one in this forum) cover those arguments fairly well.

While focussing on Age Play in this thread derails any discussion on gambling.

They are? Where did you see that?

My take on SAP vs. Gambling:

Is LL likely exposed to legal risk by permiting:

Online Gambling: Maybe. To be determined. "Wait and See" policy.

SAP: doubtful. It's unclear what jurisdiction applies internationally.

Are LL's customers exposed to legal risk by offeringing/engaging in:

Online Gambling: Likely yes for operators, maybe yes for residents.

SAP: Depends on country of residence and local laws.

Is LL likely to miss out on future revenue and customers (individual and corporate) due to bad press regarding:

Online Gambling: Some perhaps, but not much, and it attracts many.

SAP: Yes, VERY likely.

Are there other themes that LL could ban because they might have significant negative impact upon future revenue and customers:

Adult content: Yes, but it's a trade off, probably bringing more business than it scares off.
Gay content: Yes, but again, it's a trade off.
Furry content: Ditto
Gorean: Ditto
Phone Weasels: Not a trade off. If word of this leaks out to FOX news it will *END* SecondLife.

Does SAP attract sufficent revenue and customers to justify putting up with the damage to SecondLife's reputation it results in?

Obviously... No.

Well as of April 5th you now got your wish and LL restricts gambling activity and location promotion as it does one particular sexual freedom and preference. Again one can argue this affects only a 'few' who are into this particular activity... but here we are already with TWO things now officially 'prejudiced' against by this online 2nd Life world, in order to keep pace with the paranoia's and anxieties of the 1st Life world with its myriad of restrictive laws and limiting social prejudices.

What's next?.. what will be 'banned' from being able to be discussed, advertised, promoted or mentioned? who knows... how many other killjoy, moralist, prudist, limiter groups and lobbying factions will press for ' this, that, the other..' to be stopped from being able to be listed so that their own 1st world bigotries and relgious/social self-adopted behavioural limiting in the 1st world can be rammed down the throats of virtual life pioneers?

Keep it up and soon, we will all be living our uniform, bland, regulated and politically correct 2nd lives goverened entirely to suit the nit-picking do-gooding interfering small minded regulators. These are those who would like virtual existence to deny its visionary chance of being something emergent and different, and instead become a 'non-offensive' stale Observance Police dominated money generating commercial corporate drone-land afraid of it's own shadow. ( Ooops we are heading there already...)

WHO ever dreamed up the idea that new exciting virtual life had to be 'governed' by the stupid limiting restrictions of 1st life. What next.. enforced religions, dress codes, nudity bans, no 'sunday trading', taxation, chat surveillance, et etc.. ?

so all you ' let's ban... X Y and Z' freaks... watch out cos your favorite activity or perceived freedom might be next....

My money is on the reduction of Escorting advertizing next.

If gambling were still allowed I'd take that bet.

I disagree that any of us wanted any more to be banned, but many of us feel that it is inevitable until there is enough "push back" generated to balance whatever is causing this moralistic crusade.

All I know is that my plans for setting up a virtual business in Second Life are definitely "on hold" until I understand exactly what is happening!

Whatever your position on the morality of the businesses that are being shut down, people had expended a lot of time, effort and RL money in creating them. To have that suddenly removed without warning is about as scary a thing as I can imagine for any enterprise.

Second Life was founded on the idea of "user creation" of content. If that is now to be removed at someone's whim then Second Life is surely doomed to become as much of a "vast wasteland" as daytime TV!

I don;t think any activities will ever be outlawed, just the advertising of them in game. I am sure those predisposed to participate in any of these activities will find other sites to advertise and peruse advertisements for these activities.

I also think it will become necessary for ppl who want to run these activites to get together and form rl web sites where potential patrons can register and the hoster can determine that these activities are legal in consideration of their geographic legal jurisdictions. The onus will then move from LL to the guys making the profits that all is legit.

People are going to push their viewpoint on matters they feel morally obligated to but thats just it. Who taught you your morals? Namely your parents and those around you depending where you grew up you tend to have a closed mind to different things. A good deal of people never leave the country they are born in till later in life when they are taught the ways they already follow and end up thusly being prejudicial in that light.

I myself traveled around heavily in my youth.... The wondrous thing about a virtual world is if you don't like it you don't need to go and do it.... No one is sitting there forcing you to do anything just like real life. Those that feel morally obligated to stand up and fight something i find are either bigoted against that type of thing from youth, religious zealots, or people that gain some kind of benefit from shutting down something of particular interest. They usually fall into there. Now yes alot of casino's are a burden but everyone can make their stake in SL just like everyone else.

A good deal of people never sit down and talk with casino or club owners or business owners of any kind and ask them questions. They jump the gun and try to close them down right away. I've seen residential sims that lag worse then sims with clubs and casinos in them and with less people. The culprit? Poor scripting or to many scripts. But do we try to shut down residents simply because they may lag a sim as bad as a club or casino no. The just of it the people that complain probably live in the same sim as a club or a casino. Hell some people even move into the same sim as casino's and then complain.

Land in SL is for everyone not just residential owners. A good deal of people forget this or choose to ignore it or simply wish it wasnt so. Regardless of something people fail to realize is that the thing pushed through in 06 isnt really put into effect yet. It hasnt been made law its still up in seneate.

Thats the thing though it begins with saying restricting advertising then it moves into banning it then it starts a snowball effect and people will simply want stuff they want outlawed advertising wise and then push to get it fully banned. Cutting advertising for a place is like killing it off. Most people dont bother going to a third party site to look for advertising for things in second life. And only a very very small percent of the user base even use the forums or the blog for that matter. Newbies wont know these sites run by third party people in most cases. They'd need to become high profile enough to become automatically known to most people to successfully work.

Cutting off advertising is essentially killing that industry they are forced to scurry off and find underground methods of doing it work loops holes etc and it becomes a less free world for everyone. Say for instance you made kittens (stupid example i know but all the same...) Now lets say you invested alot of time and money and lets say your Kitten selling business was doing good. Now lets say some people rally that they hate kittens and dont want them advertised at all by anyone and Kittens happens to be all you sell.

Now your stuck because people know the place for selling kittens and lets just say for example you have something to that effect in your name (or description) now if your forced to change your name you lose the focus of some of the people that shopped there before (unless you have an update group of which you can tell them of changes etc. Now a few people will know that way..... But for new people to find your kittens they are simply stuck having to sift through some kind of loop hole or third party site. It becomes over burdensome to them and your sales drop dramatically (lets also say you used your sales to help pay tier.) and your unable to pay tier now so you have to let land go till you can pay it diminishing what you can show people on the broad range or for some people they would be forced to close.

Advertising is a big part of getting yourself out there for people to know about you and when you take that away from people it hurts that industry. Forcing them to 3rd party sites doesnt really help anyone either as I stated above. Sure they help a little but the magnitude of people that would actually use them is greatly diminished over those that would actually use in world search functions. Something will always offend a few people and quite frankly if we give into what offends each and every person be it because of lag (that could be caused by them or the other people as well) religious beliefs, moral beliefs or whatever quite simply we wont have an SL left everything will be restricted to search for and what SL is will drop off completely. Big Businesses will pull out small businesses as well because no one will be able to find anyone else in an appropriate and easy manner.

The difference being the gambling owners must have known they were potentially at risk. No one seems surprized Internet gambling is illegal in the US. They are just annoyed LL is enforcing the advertizing ban becuase of that fact.

Now of course people have lost money. The kind of money they shouldnt have been risking, to be honest. Seems like they were the biggest gamblers of all.

However - dont fear -

Vices have thrived for a long time in the underground even when they couldnt be advertized or were outright illegal.

Consider some RL examples -

smoking (hevily limited advertizing - cant even own the Nascar series cup any more) But lots of people still smoke.

Drinking - Also limited advertizing , for a while actually illegal. almost no one stopped drinking.

Prostitution - Has been underground essetially forever but still prospers.



So Gambling's number might not be up.