If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

Yep, it would have been through a RL company I own. If and when LL is targeted for allowing online gambling I would rather not be involved with having a casino in SL.


Good for him. We have business contacts and friends. Who said we had to pay?

DJ you've been rumbled, let it go mate, let it go. Your just digging a bigger hole for yourself. So you spent anywhere between $25-50K on legal advice and you were content to just receive that advice over the phone after having paid that amount! Didn't you kinda say "That's interesting news Bob I look forward to reading it in detail in a letter or email so I can refer to it later"?

Honestly, if your business spends that amount of money up front before going into a low turnover business that casino's (relative to internet and RL gambling) are in SL then I really don't think you will be in business long and I would seriously advise you not to get involved in the casino business in SL just on basic business principles. Work it out yourself. Your $25-50K down already. I wouldn't want a legal overhead of more than 3-5% in my company. That dictates that I'm looking for a maximum turnover of $1 million per annum in SL. Someone remind me how many SL millionaires there are again? SL Casino owners may like to take this opportunity to choke on their Danish, spill their coffee or fall off their chairs laughing.

If you had the first clue about business you would have done your market research first for say $5-10K on casinos in SL, realised the market potential and saved a lot of dough on what seems to be some crappy legal service. If you are so respectful of lawyers and you can't remember the exact detail of their legal advice maybe you could post all 5 firms names and addresses, dates when you sought their advice and statement from you saying that this is the honest truth that the lawyers gave me, We'll then contact said law firms and point them to this thread.

Is that a fair enough deal? Or have you have forgotten that now? Like I said, let it go dude. You're rumbled.

Also where is this so called sports betting in second life? I mean honestly is the article just pulling junk out of the air with that. I've been in SL almost 2 years now and have never once seen a sports betting establishment or casino's that offer such a thing. I've seen some sports in SL but seriously come on now sports betting. Ok just searched it there is like maybe 6 places at max if that far from pervasive.... Writer seems to be grasping at straws there to make the issue seem larger then it is. People that say casino's are in like every sim are also mistaken. Yes there are casino's in alot of place. But clubs out number casinos. And its not really an issue if all parties are respectful of one another's environments.

Me and my partners Club for instance we tried to keep it as low lag as possible. There is a guy that lives there that also has a shop though he isnt on much and an art gallery. We all peacefully co-exist. Clubs or casinos popping up in your sim isnt so much the problem. The problem is the decisions of some of the people that run these establishments to not try to keep things nice for people that may choose to live in that sim.

A bigger hole? I'm in no hole.

I'll make this really simple for you. We were considering a business, sought legal advice, and were advised not to because it is not legal. I don't know why you keep rambling about numbers but it is as simple as that.



Like I said, we didn't pay a dime. If you're going to respond at least understand what you're responding to.


Um, funny. I've owned my own business since 1999 and have thousands of clients. If you'd like to see the site PM me.


Hehe you're kidding right? I do have better things to do than prove anything to forums. We got the advice and are taking it. That's all you need to know.

We trade web development and hosting services in exchange for legal matters. Is that good enough for ya? We also do for many other clients that we see as beneficial to trade services with. A computer store for computer hardware/software for our servers, an office equipment company for office supplies. Get the idea?


Um, they did. That is why it's called advice.

Hello! I'm a little bit confused!! What happens here in SL!

Did the ban of ageplay stuff in public places or in anouncement means the end of SL???

But it's not the most frightening for me! Most of people are choked by ageplay, ok i can understand this... But what about rape, kidnaping, sexual tortures (dolcett)... They seem to stay legal in SL...

Why prohibit ageplay and not the other RL-illegal stuffs?

To thoses who would tell because its illegal, i would say rape, kidnaping and tortures dont sounds legal to me!
To thoses who would tell because other stuff are between agreeing adults player, i would say what is the difference with ageplay...

I think that the RL laws are quiet the same as SL laws, the good word to use in that situation is POLITICALY CORRECT!!!

Rape is illegal but who cares, tortures are illegal but who cares, kidnaping is illegal but who cares, ageplay is illegal but it is also not politicaly correct so it have to be prohibited!!

Excuse me for bad english, its not my first language!

Ageplay can still happen they just cant advertise it or claim they are underage. They need to claim their avatars look a certain age but not that they actually are said age. Rape in SL cant even really be considered rape is one thing really.... Notice its "Rape Fantasy" bit of a difference and rape fantasy is actually quite legal in real life although im not sure it has a huge following... An example of this is in role play when you pretend that someone breaks into your house and the culprit (your sexual partner,..) takes advantage of you. It's not so much considered "rape" because your both consenting. Your just enacting the scene of what it would be but there are obviously limits to it like in most role play like that (bdsm etc.... ) Having safe words etc is common in real life if someone goes to far.

In Dutch area's yes ageplay would be considered illegal if they say simulated to the degree where its ok if you can tell them apart. In the u.s that isnt the case. In the u.s the image needs to be indistinguishable from the real thing. However advertising it i can see where they may wanna leave that out. Also alot of people are misinformed as to what age play is about and thus paint it as pedophelia.... (note when i refer to ageplay here i mean sexual ageplay and not ageplay as in playing little) I find when people are misinformed they jump the gun. Yes they make themselves look like children so do people in real life (not to the same degree mind you) but they know each side is an adult in real life. In real life someone may shave off all body hair wear an outfit that makes them look like a kid and act like a kid. in SL they can make themselves look like Children but arnt in fact children in that light but its still the image of a child under certain countries laws (in this case dutch laws...)

Lets look at t he GTA games or Bully. You beat up people (bully your beating up teens...) GTA your firing weapons and killing people or beating them or you can get a hooker to get in your car. These games arnt banned. The only game i recall getting in trouble for something in recent years (that actually stood) was BMX XXX because they had pictures and video's of real strippers naked. These things arnt really considered illegal with a virtual representation because people know they arnt real.

The problem instilling any rule like this is quite apparent people end up judging each other quite alot and its sad really. But such is the flaw of man end up with a closed mind when they are raised in the manner a good deal of people are. I was raised by martial arts instructors for a good deal of my life. I learned to be open to life possibilities over that time and have met and trained in quite a few places around the world when i was younger (this is done alot in asian countries sadly but to a degree its the parents concern for their childrens futures its more common in poorer areas they hope that they become famous or something) i ended up falling out of traveling as i got a bit older but i keep up my training on my own. But openness is a very important aspect of anyones lives. Close mindedness prevents you from meeting wonderful people, partaking in events you might enjoy alot of joys in life are missed out on because people tend to close out the possibilities rather then being open to them.

A few questions arise from the argument that this is illegal to run a casino in SL. The major one being how are they going to regulate it. And whats going to be targeted in that light? I mean when you consider every single game in SL (Slingo Tringo pizzera, quntizy (spelling?) and quite a few others) that are a game of chance that you can put L into a pot and win L. By claims here by people backing up the argument that its illegal those would then need to be targeted. Which pushes a huge amount of stuff out of SL and basically ruins alot of people in general. We still have no actual proof of this matter being illegal for SL. And im pretty sure these lawyers that you contacted have no actual experience with these laws.

Regardless of this is really a silly law in context. If they did stuff right isntead of making everything illegal they could capatalize on it. Is it even worth really going after a SL casino if you consider they pretty much make rubbish. Its a make or break thing and they dont make much if they make money. Thats why so many pop up. And most people dont even use casino's because they know they are worthless.

Ill give you this DJ Seeking legal advice and following it is smart however your lawyers may be wrong. No one is always right and when there isnt many cases of people being prosecuted and the fact that i doubt any of those 5 law firms has experience in this area of law. I could go contact my attorney, my cousin (lawyer), his father as well (city controller) and a few other people i know to look into it but what they say is their opinion of the law. So to that regard i'd take it with a grain of salt. Anyone can claim something legal or illegal that doesnt make it so.

Again you can find articles regarding this. The bill passed in September 06 for instance,

in September 2006, the Congress passed legislation that makes it a crime for a bank or financial institution to transfer money to an online gambling site. The bill that was passed did not include language about the Wire Act that was in previous versions. The bill does not appear to address playing online in any way.

Which is what people refer to as to why these things should be illegal. The wire act is in reference to online betting which has been around for about 6 years now regarded online betting. But it was regulated and agreed on by a court system that it was in fact only able to be processed to Sports and Contest betting and was brought up on appeal to try and change it but it was held that it was to stay as previously states.

The Appeals Court specifically cites Duval's statement: "[A] plain reading of the statutory language [of the Wire Act] clearly requires that the object of the gambling be a sporting event or contest." This is very explicit language. You would have to jump through a lot of mental hoops to consider the playing of online poker to be "a sporting event".

On November 21, 2002, the US Fifth Circuit Federal Appeals Court upheld Duval's ruling, stating: "The district court concluded that the Wire Act concerns gambling on sporting events or contests... We agree with the district court's statutory interpretation, its reading of the relevant case law, its summary of the relevant legislative history, and its conclusion." (Text of Appeals Court ruling)

Some individual states have laws prohibiting any form of gambling, a different issue from whether it is legal on a Federal level.

There are many ways to read the Wire Act, but only under the broadest interpretation could playing online poker be deemed illegal in terms of the Wire Act. In my opinion (which isn't worth a hill of beans... only the US Supreme Court's view will matter unless new legislation passes) playing online poker is not illegal for US citizens, in regards to Federal Law -- unless it is a crime in an individual state, in which case the Federal Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 may apply. The Act makes it a federal crime for five or more persons to engage in a gambling business illegal under state law. Gambling online is definitely illegal in some states, but the Crime Control Act of 1970 does not apply to players. In addition, since the Crime Control Act does not refer to foreign commerce, it is hard to see how a case could be made that it applies to Internet gaming across multiple international borders.


In November 2004, the Caribbean island nation of Antigua and Barbuda won a World Trade Organization ruling that United States legislation criminalizing online betting violates global laws. In April 2005, the WTO Appellate Body affirmed the principal conclusions involved. (The resources link below will take you to a page with links to the WTO ruling, news stories about it, and further resources on online poker / online gambling and US law.)


So, as long as online poker players do not participate in owning a share of the house rake; as long as players only wager against each other; as long as players participate in the skill game of poker and do not bet sports; as long as players obey state laws... draw your own conclusions.

The Act gives ISPs a little more security by declaring that they cannot be convicted of violating the Wire Act, unless, of course, the ISP is operating its own illegal gambling site. (thing passed in 06)

Note that the thing passed in 06 didnt overturn the wireact and that the UJD is still trying to have poker added as being illegal as part of the wire act. As of now games of chance etc arnt illegal under federal law however they can be founded under state law (even though the case is week) So varying by what state your in DJ it may be legal or illegal that may be what your lawyers are at but under federal law it is not and in regardls to that LL cant be prosecuted unless they themeselves are running a casino (under the act in 06) they cant be asked to take them down either as they arnt links to real internet gambling sites (note that if someone had a box with a hyperlink to a site it'd need to be removed...)

So how this sets on each person would vary on a state to state basis and thats if they abolish gambling of any kind in that state which some do while others follow the wire act or have legalized gambling.

Again i apologize for another long post but Im backing up said claims with legal precidence of what the court system ruled as well as other opinions. Thiis info is readily available on the net for anyone to look at i've included act names and the like. (Act passed in 06 is called Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act) So i apologize but felt the need to put this out there....

Ok, I've been reading, and reading, and blah blah blah.

What people seem to be failing to understand is that SecondLife is a virtual word. It's a platform. Linden Labs doesn't 'own' anything users build (although, from what I understand, users don't really own it either, but that's a whole bunch of messiness we don't need to worry about right now). The thing is this, if someone wants to run a casino in SecondLife, fine. It's not up to Linden Labs to make sure that that person owns a gambling permit, and it's not up to Linden Labs to be able to present said permit. The 'owner' of the casino and the gambling machines and whatever need to have a permit (one from California, I would assume, since I believe that's where the servers are?), and if the US government wants to tell people that they can't have a casino in SecondLife without a permit, then it's up to that same government to enforce it.

Now, the thing that makes ageplay a different matter is that as much as there's the whole mixed and convoluted ownership thing, SecondLife itself, the greater world (but not necessarily the things in it), belongs to Linden Labs. They can ban or promote, discourage or encourage whatever they feel like. Age Play is great for some, they love it, and they're getting all up in arms about it being discouraged or banned or whatever (I don't know the exact terminology for what's going on, nor do I care to, I think it's sick). For others, it's repellant, disgusting and perverse. The latter group is either more numerous, more noisy, or just have some of their members in important places, while the former ... not so much. As far as gambling is concerned, you're likely to run into the opposite. Casinos are a business venture. Linden Labs is a business. In basic principle, they're kindred spirits, and unlikely to discourage other people from running businesses of just about any sort online of their own volition.

I'm rather neutral in the whole affair, the concept of "ageplay" disgusts me, and I don't gamble often, either, so I'm hoping that this will shut a few people up.

Your comparing roleplay of sexual activity between an adult and child to gambling?

.....lol?

They appear to be and most people dont seem to understand some points of it but thats their own thing. They can find it gross or whatever just dont feel anyone should be forcing their views on other people period. Also find people trying to post mainly opinion as legal fact a bit silly. There is legal precedence regarding the legality of these types of things. And the U.S is overstepping boundaries with overseas things. But they cant really convict based on what SL casinos are (ok the sports betting places would definitely fall under this law but i dont see how they can convict anyone aside from the financial institution backing credit to that company (none in sl do this that im aware of...) They'd need to revise the Wire Act but that hasnt happened yet and until it does Casino's in SL are perfectly legal unless they have some type of sports betting or their state declares all forms of gambling illegal in which case its still a shaky case to prosecute...

Right. The SL Casino's aren't like real Casino's. The reason being is that Linden Dollars, even coming from casino's, is still coming from a private party, on private land. If it was against the law to gamble in casino's on SL, it would also be illegal to gamble at friday night poker parties at friends house because it's still private money being spent. Then again, Linden dollars belong to SL. It's a gray area and until there is no statute made up, it's not against the law to any extent.

However, the original poster of this thread is comparing sexual age play to gambling. Firstly, if it's against your religion, then don't do it. Don't push your religious beliefs and oppressive viewpoints onto other people. As far as sexual age play on SL, I still think it should be against the law for the simple fact that it depicts children having sex. It's still child pornography, even if it's of a digital animation on a computer screen.

Sexual age play is not in the same class as rape, kidnapping, and torture.

The key word with kidnapping and rape is CONSCENT. If your on a video game, anything you do in it is conscent. You can easily teleport out or X out. So, if you roleplay out a rape scene, the reality is that it's consensual sex, even if your scening it out. The same with kidnapping in SL.

Ageplay on the other hand falls into the child pornography area. And Child Pornography is defined as "Under federal law, child pornography is defined as visual depiction of minors (i.e. under 1 engaged in a sex act such as intercourse, oral sex, or masturbation as well as the lascivious depictions of the genitals."

So - the VISUAL DEPICTION of minors engaged in sexual acts.

While the part about age play is true you miss that it needs to be indistinguishable from the real thing under federal law. That hasnt changed yet. I agree its wrong and i wouldnt partake in it myself but i dont think it should be illegal because some people dont understand it. Most people dont understand age play and condem it routwardly because of it. I understand the real life ties it shares (there is an age play community in real life and its based off a real life roleplay...) Yes there is the fact it can be abused but at the same time the age play and the role play community in general (in both r/l and sl roleplay) try their best to provent those that would abuse it from getting into it. So while i think its a little offish personally If people arnt abusing the roleplay of it there isnt much I'd say as far as it being illegal.

There are a few reasons to not outwardly ban it so i think to a degree LL made the right move in asking people to take down advertising for it and taking it out of the public view. What people choose to do in private is a different thing then what is done in public and really is none of my business. Some people may be together in real life and choose to roleplay that way in SL or be a part of the real life community so i wouldnt say outwardly banning is right as i just stated. So controlling what is in public view yes best solution to it. And yes gambling and it have nothing to do with one another....... I also agree about the religious views. My own views are to be open I dont get mad etc. I get frustrated when people act certain ways but never outwardly mad (well i get mad in very rare instances and if you see me actually mad head for the hills)I understand that people find age play offensive as I do to but im respectful of people in that light...

This is a sad defeat of free speech in the world of Second Life.

Where is the transcript of the chat?

I see that repressive bigotry is still ripe in religious circles. Sexual age play with child avatars yes, should be totally banned that is just imaginary paedophilia by another name and all paedophilia is abhorrent to most societies because of the harm caused to young minds.

But gambling, it is so silly to make it illegal. You got yourselves into a hell of a mess in the States when you introduced prohibition. The sale of illegal alcohol and sleazy illegal Speak Easy's went on to fuel the Mafia. You should learn your lesson from that.

It is supposedly a free economy and home of the free. People choose to drink, gamble have sex watch TV, whatever, it is their choice as adults.

If you agree with the original poster's rationale then why not accept that at least one of the very radical religious groups have valid points when they tell you that society will only be safe when it returns to the use of equipment and machinery pre industrial. No more sl then at least one religious group believes computers and tv are corrupt sinful objects.

Religion hah! All I know is when you die, you die. Enjoy what you have here because believing in fairy stories because you are afraid to face death is for weak minds.

Actually - that's incorrect. Child Pornography is defined as just as I said, depicting a minor having sex with an adult. The LAW says that it has to be real photographs. There is a big difference between what the law says that makes it illegal, and what the definition is.

Right now, Congress is in a legal battle on trying to make art, digital images, and anything else that resembles a minor having sex with an adult, illegal in any form.

Also, while federal law may not have a law regarding this, state law can.

In all statutes of the law, it doesn't always need to specify indetail whether or not it's a real or fake photograph. You can interpret the laws a number of ways. For example, if a law enforcement agent thinks you are in violation of a law, they charge you. The charges and evidence then gets brought before the county prosecuting attorney (D.A.), the D.A. reviews the case and decides whether or not it's a strong case. They may decide to charge you, they may drop the charges being that the law doesn't apply to you, even though the Officer thought that you violated that specific law. They can then present it before a judge. If the judge decides it's within the legal guidelines of that section of the law, you would then have to go throught he whole court process.

You need to understand that while the laws may not state such, you can still be charged with it if the law enforcement agents thinks your in violation. I'm sure your well aware of it...I'm well aware of it. But, if an Officer seizes your computer and see's images or activity that your doing on your computer, would you really want to try and explain yourself to him? Or a D.A.? Or a judge in the arraginment hearing? I wouldn't.

While thats true to some extent there are rules that the officials police officers , District attorneys and the like have to follow you as well as the judge otherwise people can actualyl sue the city or in some cases sue the state officials. A cop cant seize your computer without just cause either and they would need a warrant do do so unless it was in plain view in your home. There are regulations they have to follow under a means of them coming into your home and seizing property to be deemed legal. Regardless of Age play is going to happen in SL regardless really. Sexual age play has never been a big thing im not part of it.......Mabye we'll see a change in the word age play to reflect the real life roleplay and have adults looking younger and dressing up like school girls or little girls or boys or whatever. While i do find age play in context irksome. However in some parts of the world its commonly accepted to a marginal degree (usually people that arnt prepubecent though...) The whole lolita thing is a bit more understandable and not so irksome because lolita's are generally poised on the net as above 18 but younger looking (teens...) still is a little irksome but used to be generally accepted taht an older man would marry someone in their teens its no longer common place though and frowned upon in most 1st world countries but isnt to rare in other places in the world. Do i approve of it personally? No but thats up to the cultures governments and the like to decide really.

But comparing it to gambling is a little off and bringing religion into the argument as the op did was unecessary. Yes some religions find gambling wrong but that has no bearing in the virtual world. As people say if you dont like it stay away from it. Also if you look i said under federal law not by definition .

As far as I know, rape is banned in just about ALL countries. So why is it that if I type "rape" in the locations tab of the search window I get several locations that come up? Even though personally I find rape offensive, I know that if someone doesn't want to be "raped" in sl they always have the teleport option. Also because I find rape offensive I don't engage in it myself, but I also don't go around whining about how offensive it is to all the owners of the places that have it in their sims.

Also, homosexuality is banned in some countries and some people find that offensive. So let's ban homosexuality in sl too.

The problem: Ageplay (sexual ageplay actually but ok, ageplay) has been exposed by the media in a way that was intended to titillate and inspire revulsion.

The solution: Ban the hateful word Ageplay and require it's use in SL become a ban-able offense.

The reactions:
1) From do gooders: Ban ageplay altogether!!!....but maybe gambling (or other sin, fill in the blank) is ok....

2) From irate ageplayers: Ban it?!! But I want to proclaim my god given right to be perverse in public ( the confused won't think they are perverse but let's be real... it is perverse and even so I support free thought where it harms no one, so I support private ageplay).

3) From reasonable people (like me!): Ok I see that bad press doesn't help anyone and as long as I can play in private and with another consenting adult, I guess I can live with that.


Why are we still talking about this (why am I...) wait I know....people won't * let it go.....*


Ageplay as it was is gone, private play among childlike Avatars is not being prevented and with good reason. How could private play harm people in a private setting. Do the do gooders really believe playing here would cause someone to do something in RL? Better ban TV, books, radio, etc while you're at it. Wait maybe you should just mind your *own* business.

Everytime someone posts here (myself included) they keep the top spinning. Let the freakin top fall. I will dig deep and try to ignore the insanity in the hopes that people can do likewise and move onto a new topic.

Say...cutting down on lag or preventing griefing, or.....something important

/Continues to pray that people will turn inward and cure themselves before trying to heal me (or ban me).

You can sue anyone for anything - and people get charged for crimes they don't commit more often than you think. That is why each department has what is called a city attorney. However, in civil cases, there has to be negligence in which case, if an Officer is arresting someone for being a suspect in a possible crime, there isn't negligence. Cases get dismissed and charges get dropped in counties across America daily. There is not much a person can do to seek damages against a city unless there is a clear sign of negligence, harassment, etc etc.

There are regulations they have to follow, the very same regulations that say that if someone is suspected of being in possession of child pornography or producing such material, it *must* be investigated. It's not the Officers job to decide whether or not the person is innocent or guilty. That is for the lawyers and judges to decide in court. If any Officer thinks that someone is in violation of a law, they can arrest you.

In all code sections of the law, for instance, in California, under penal code section 311.11, under subsection (d), it specifically states that child pornography does not include drawings, figurines, statues, or any film rated by the motion picture association. The judge can easily decide whether or not a game like Second Life would fall under that area. Otherwise, the code states that any person who knowingly possesses or controls any matter, REPRESENTATION OF INFORMATION, data, or imagine including but not limited to, any film, filmstrip, photograph, etc etcthe production of which involves the use of a person under the age of 18 years involved in sexual conduct.

A lot of times with these cases, in gray areas, it boils down to intrepretation. You can't look at it in black or white with laws. Judges do interpret these types of things differently, and if a person is found guilty, it can go all the way up to the court of the appeals. That is why they are there...for cases just like this. Again...IF it becomes an issue.

So you really have to ask yourself if fiddling with sexual age play on the internet is worth it or not. SL should get rid of it altogether.

What else should they ban that offends you. What else on the internet should be banned? How do you feel about movies? Any books bothering you? Artwork?

The definition of a censor is "Someone who knows more than he wants you to know".

Your desire to kill thought is amusing at best and an frighteningly inelegant attempt to purge SL to re-make it in your peceived pure image at its very worst.


Would that I was as pure of spirit as you.

/Hands you the first stone.

I think they need to ban spinning cubes with the words "for sale" on them.

"Killing thought" and censorship are two seperate things. Let's just forget the fact that teenagers sneak onto the adult grid all the time. Let's just forget the fact that daily, internet predators are roaming the internet, trying to lure children into some very dangerous situations. Lets just forget the fact that daily, children are being victimized.

It's totally appropriate for a man to seek enjoyment out of watching his avatar be in a sexual scenario with another adult who is operating a child avatar. /sarcasm

Maybe we should take censorship away altogether...then we'll start with laws and take those away as well.