If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

Gambling is highly offensive to me as it is prohibited by my religion AND, as per the US Justice Department, gambling in SL is illegal to all Americans and anyone located in the United States! I want gambling banned from Second Life or at least to fall under the same new rules and regulations as Age Play! Why is age play being fazed out of SL, which is not even illegal in the US where Linden Labs is located, and only illegal in a few foreign countries, yet something which is highly illegal in many countries including the USA (as per the official US Justice Dept spokeswoman commenting directly about Second Life) and offensive to many religions (gambling) is not? And don’t give me that “L$ are not money” because the US Justice Dept already said that it doesn’t need to be money which is gambled with AND they said that gambling in Second Life (naming Second Life) is illegal and prosecutable to the full extent of the law.

Obviously LL is looking to limit and/or ban activities which are seen as illegal and/or offensive in RL countries. If you look at the transcript from the meeting with Robin Linden about the new ageplay restrictions, you will see that someone yells out "Robin! I find green hair offensive! I want it banned!" followed by Robin's response of "Yes, but green hair is not illegal in RL countries." so it is now time to ban and/or restrict gambling in SL.

Riddle me that Batman…

...and so it begins

Good point, though it probably could have been worded better.

Yes, online gambling is illegal in the United States. Since $L have a dollar equivalent, it is legally gambling, therefore illegal. And let's not even get into the tax issues.

Well, It isn't, what IS being restricted is the Advertising in any Publicly viewable venue connected with SL, of Child avies providing any sexual services.

Angel.

The problem is since LL stepped forward and said we are going to restrict this they have set them selves up for requests to restrict anything. Put it on the voting list and see what happens (Ohh wait there was no vote for anything else, and you can't vote against last time I looked)

Welcome to the world that you created.

"or at least to fall under the same new rules and regulations as Age Play!"

Darn. Someone oughtta call Las Vegas and Atlantic City up, and all the Indian run casinos... Someone didnt send them the memo that they were all illegal....

As for your religion, well, dont gamble, and your god will forgive you.



If your religion doesnt like gambling, I'm pretty sure that they wouldnt like the idea of you poking the children as well...... Kiddie sex, IMHO, is sick.



I could be wrong here, but I would tend to think that adults pokin the kiddies is pretty much a world-wide no no. If not, it oughtta be. Gambling? legal in many countries. Some even have that as a huge revenue source. Sorry bubba. Your argument just doesnt cut it this time. No Free All you can eat buffet at your local casino for you.

What's with you people? Why do you try to bring up something completely different and irrelevant to what LL has done? You try to bring up green hair. You try to bring up gambling. You try to bring up furries. But we all know that LL just clamped down on having simulated sex with children, simulated sex with children. Can't you get that through your brain? It's as if SL was the last bastion of ageplaying sex and now it's been torn down. Trying to get these other activities banned is just a smokescreen for what you're really mad about. I have no sympathy for anyone who tries to pull this kind of chickenshit argument.

I'd say that Pan's argument has a very solid premise followed by a sound conclusion. I think ageplay is pretty gross and would never take part in it myself, but the original poster does have a very valid point and I don't think he/she supports ageplay, considering even gambling is against his/her religion.

Pan Fan,

Your conditional argument is false by definition.

If you think gambling should be banned because of legal or ethical objections then you should present them on their own without making them dependent on any other issue.

I personally agree with both bans. I won't go into the reasons for the age play (what an euphemism!) but I see banning gambling as trying to clean up the trash in SL. There are so many other ways to waste money on online rigged sites where gamblers are eager to waste their money while praying to their deities that I'd prefer they weren't polluting SL too (or any other environment, real or imaginary, for that matter).

This is not an issue of personal freedoms and banning green hair and similar moronic objections. SL is a privately controlled computer simulation where mostly adults sit behind a computer keyboard and are trying to substitute human communication and activity with 3-D computer graphics (and low quality at that). As someone else has said, SL is already phone sex while looking at crude avatars and it can do without being a gambler wasteland also.

*moves to feature suggestions*

How is the argument "false by definition?" When you construct an argument, you base it on premises, such as "George W. Bush is a male" and "George W Bush is the president of the USA" after which you come to a conclusion of "The president of the USA is male." This is similar to Pan's argument. "Ageplay has been restricted due to laws and offensiveness" and "Gambling is against the law and offends religions" as the premises with the conclusion of "Gambling should also be restricted just as ageplay has been." All the premises are true and so the conclusion is true and thus the argument is VALID not "false by definition." When you form an argument you form that argument based on information at hand. The more information you present, the more "sound" your argument becomes. To learn more, take a “logic” class at your local college. Good luck!

The legality of gambling is independent of the legality of age play (and if I ever have to refer to this activity again I'll start calling it what it really is).

SL's handling of those issues can be consistent or inconsistent and at first look Pan Fan's argument seems like it is calling for consistency of action. If Pan Fan is calling for consistency then the personal offense and religious objections are irrelevant and superfluous.

However, since the first activity is not proven to be illegal and we don't know the exact reasons LL is trying to discourage it in SL (we can make educated guesses of course), then a call for consistency is false because the two activities are not equal in terms of legal status.

Since this is common language though, which is often too vague, there is some thin thread of some logical argument that can be made that connects those two activities and how LL deals with them.

But it's much more preferable to deal with each issue independently of any others because it's seldom the case that there is much similarity between them, so it's false to expect consistent and equal action on dissimilar circumstances.

Class dismissed.

It seems you are missing one vital chunk of information. As per very recently, role playing "ageplay" IS illegal in several countries and you can go to jail for partaking in it. I'm pretty sure that is why Pan added that quote with Robin saying that green hair is not illegal in RL countries. Whatever, I guess we'll see what happens. And thanks for letting class out early! I need a drink!

Let's not forget that the legality and all potential religious or ethical objections from people of every allowed activity in SL was and is fully known by LL (if it wasn't it's their mistake) before they opened up the grid to the public.

So we can already infer that it's not the legal status of an activity that will play the major role in LL's consideration of dealing with it in SL. That's another level of the disconnect between the two issues because their legal status doesn't have the highest priority, it was already known by LL when they let their customers be active in them.

They now may have more customer objections for one compared to the other, or they may have hired new lawyers that have identified a growing potential for liability for one more than another, or a host of other factors.

In any case, the fact remains that each issue has to be dealt independently of any other because as similar as they may seem, each one has very different set of considerations that will determine their outcome.

Enjoy the drink.

I just find it sad, personally, that we as full grown adults (and i do consider full grown to be 18, shoving aside any emotional variables) cannot use realism to escape our issues. It's unfortunate that with the God-give power (whom i do not worship) of independence and freedom of mind we cannot choose to stay out of things that do not concern us.

Offended? Walk away. Don't get involved in ageplay. Don't watch it. If there is a visually offending sign near your place of residence or employment, push to get it removed. If it is not removed in a manner that is timely in your opinion, relocate. Are you a police officer and feel it to be your civil duty to kick up a shit fit until something is done? This isn't your jurisdiction. Is it against your religion to gamble? Go pray, and then first read the line about 'avoiding it', secondly read the line about relocation.

A boyfriend takes his doll in his new car for a spin around town. They get ice cream, watch the sun come down. Then they are involved in an at-fault automobile accident. The daughter has significant physical repercussions. The mother has every motive in the world to be angry and react accordingly. YOU DO NOT. You don't walk to your local senator and demand him, riot and petition for him to get all people in the boyfriend's general demographic out of automobiles.

Linden Labs have made a business decision to alter company policy. It has nothing to do with you. For somebody to walk up and tell us to get rid of gambling using a god complex of "you did this, so you better do that or I'm going to be a whiny little bitch with faux-complexity and minor factual crossfading", it's absolutely ridiculous. Stop trying to make this about you. It makes you look absolutely retarded.

So I'm going to lay this all out on the table for you. This is the internet. Leave your religion at the door. Nobody cares, and unless you are the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, a core asset to a Second Life endorsement company, or a significant government official, Linden Labs probably doesn't genuinely care either.

No matter what the OP's intentions, he has a genuine point about the legality of gambling in Second Life.

Why does everyone see fit to attack ageplay instead of addressing the real issue at hand, which could have serious repercussions for SL?

Or is the legality of gambling in SL just that uncomfortable of a topic?

I say...gambling is a money making business, whil age-play don't even many RL governments are considering open up their own gamble center to draw money into the government agency. so, the case is already difference from the start.

That's Kinda hyprocritical isn't it?
So yeah ban gambling.
And furries
And ...and...

The legality of gambling in SL comes down to the fact that its done within SL. Its perfectly legal to gamble with play money. Should you choose to put it out into a real life currency then thats your choice but while in SL the money has no real value until it is traded out. How you earn said money isnt really at question because the money is in world. It'd be diff if a casino required that we had paypal or a credit card to play but they require L and that keeps it within legal means. We could argue religion premises all we want but if we took down every thing in SL that offended someones religious views then SL would be completely deminished of any type of user base in fact one could argue that SL as a whole offends their religion.

You cant shut down something based on religious premise as an argument and when you actually know whats going on with the legality of gambling in SL (using play money) you will find that using a legal or illegal argument is moot. I can go gamble in another mmorpg and if it has a payout and i choose to sell that money somehow its not illegal to do so period. As someone else said if it offends you dont look at it or dont go to it or dont get involved in it. This goes for any kind of RP gor,furry, bdsm etc sexual or non sexual in nature as well as establishments.

We have people from the middle east in SL if they took their religious views and argued it all females might have to be wearing veils. Religion is quite rediculous an argument for anything and we dont need to bring a religious premise for rules inside Second Life.

Another thing one must consider is the fact that when you purchase L$ from Linden Labs, there is no subheading that says "this money must be used to gamble". As the new American law rolled out, several online casino's were forced to reject payments from anybody with an American IP address.

A census done recently by a top-five MMORPG stated that 54% of those who filled out the survey did so from the United States. As was said, ageplay offers minimal profit to Linden Labs; such a minimal amount that i imagine ageplay profit margin alone would classify Linden Labs as a charity organization. With this in mind, it only makes sense that a company such as LL would find any loophole possible to keep a) likely their main source of profit margin, and b) a vast majority of players happy and able to purchase L$.

There is no way to prevent American's from gambling, or halt gambling period. It would kill Second Life, plain and simple. You'd be taking the two main benefactors and telling them they're hitchhiking home from work tomorrow, and to check their voicemail when they get home because they're about to get fired as well. But they refuse to fire you in person, because it's against their religion. See the trend?

As one author has already stated "so it begins". They are not content with Second Life as it is; it now has to be "their" Second Life imposed on everybody else. I come here to escape from all this kind of dogmatic crap that, "what is good for me will be good for you - no argument". Well buddy here's a heads up for you.

1. SL is not the USA in digital form. It is not any country, state or collection of federal states; live with it.
2. The vast majority of SL residents will soon be non-US citizens do you want to give me a reason why you then shouldn't adhere to their values and laws? So keep that argument out of the ballpark unless you want to endure the consequences.
3. Along the lines of above, the vast majority of the world isn't Christian so do you want SL to be based on Shariah law?
4. Don't comeback with "but LL is an American company", because they can just lift their company name and open an office in Panama, Liberia or Gibraltar in an afternoon and be a non-US company.
5. The US Gov't didn't "ban" gambling. It placed a regulation on internet gambling or rather credit card transactions involving said, (essentially banning internet gambling I agree) to appease the Christian right and casino owners in Vegas and Atlanta. Gambling is still legal. So do you want credit card transactions banned now?
6. Where does this madness stop? You may not be aware of this but incestuous marriage is allowed in the US http://www.dumblaws.com/law/1556 are you now going to advise me to marry my sister because the law sanctions it or would your christian values all of a sudden wish to ignore that legal precedent.

And yes there are things that happen in SL that repel me but this is an experiment on how responsible, grown up and mature people can handle these things and deal with them. Repugnant as age-play is would I rather they were doing it here than in RL? Sure I would. Does it worry me that it may lead to a RL experiment? Damn right it does. Does banning something cure their problem, perversion or illness. No it doesn't it just moves it elsewhere and that's the only precedent you can refer or allude to with gambling. it wont go away whatever your views are. I've seen good faithful Muslims gambling fortunes.

I do though note that your thread title seems to be more to me like a whinge that if "you" can't enjoy your age play games why can others gamble? I further note the "Pan" as in Peter Pan in your name.

Anyway buddy you stop throwing stones at my fun and I'll leave you alone to set up your own SL church and start preaching. Which one of us is more christian in outlook regarding tolerance. You people have screwed up RL for all of us for centuries don't repeat your mistakes here.

Things that offend me and should be stopped immediately:

1. Exposed skin on any female avatar
   
2. Blingy avatars
   
3. Emo music in clubs
   
4. Furries
   
5. Non-furries
   
6. Gambling
   
7. Recreational games involving chance
   
8. Recreational games involving skill
   
9. Simulated inebriants
   
10. Simulated shoes
    
11. Other people
    

That's all I can think of right now.

In point of fact, gambling or gaming is not universally illegal in the US. Even beyond gambling on Native American reservations (technically idependent of the US), there are currently 14 stats that have regulated gaming on non-Indian land. One of the few states to ban gambling outright in all forms is South Carolina. Nearby West Virginia has some gaming on private land, heavily regulated.

Internet gaming is an interesting smoke screen. I think you can make a convincing argument that once you purchase Linden they cease to be a valid currency or tender. Unlike buying chips on online casion, Linden are not specifically pruchased for the online playing of risk-based gaming. Even though your "winnings" can be exchanged for a valid tender should you hit a jackpot, that is not their sole purpose. You may also chose to invest in land, pay a virtual preacher, or any other activity.

Only 8 states in the US do not have some for of state-sanctioned gambling they mask as a "lottery". That means 42 engage in state-sanctioned gaming.

Few countries, except most that are historically Islamic, have outright universal bans on gaming.