If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

I like this remark very much! Well as the game changes so do the rules......As SL because more business and less friendly and cozy. you might see this happen.....When LLabs uses up all it can from its possible resources( Namely US the players on sl ). They throw us aside just as they do with every trend etc........ they can think of to bring in more and more people into the game.....One way or another they get what they want.....NO MATTER WHAT...

Usagi

Usagi LL are making themselves more open as a company when you get down to it they are opening up the program to the users. So ultiamtely there isnt a purpose to that. However their rules are going to change sure they have to be careful were they tread with said rules though or thye will end up losing their user base.

Oh thats right!!!!!!!!!!Infact Lina they are losing their base. But Does LLabs care? Not rally because look at all the new ( COUGH COUGH ) users and population we are gaining.YEA RIGHT! LLAbs is pissing off more and more of their older players....On purpose because they want them out! They nolonger have a purpose LLabs feels. HENCE this reaction to ageplay by LLABS....... Slowly Slowly We are having WHAT we thought was allowable taken away from up....What you might think is safe now.Will not be in the near future.

Usagi

You could but then you'd have to classify what the SL Exchange is doing as something similar to making currency, which would complicate things unnecessarily.

Lindens are not valid currency but they have monetary value and they don't have to always be used for gambling. The fact that they can should be enough to classify the games of chance with L$ rewards in SL as gambling.

There may be a loophole on this approach based on the fact that it is only LL that assigns monetary value to L$s and it does at its sole discretion. Meaning that an amount in L$s is worth nothing because the player doesn't own even that virtual amount, and more importantly it is not guaranteed that LL will ever pay back real currency for it.

It's true that SL players don't own anything and LL is not required to recognize any monetary value on anything in-world, so as much as this helps to shatter the illusion of ownership in SL, it may be a legitimate argument against regulation.

But there's no need for getting lost in convoluted arguments. The fact is anyone can pay real $ to buy L$s, play with them in SL and more likely than not they can easily convert their infrequent winnings back to $, with LL and the casinos reaping the profits.

It's gambling.

This is 100% false. L$ has a currency value, whether it's in-world or converted to USD. That is what makes casinos whether web-based, or in a virtual world (with the servers hosted in the US), in fact, illegal. Even if online casinos, poker rooms, etc, were legal for US players, there are still things that make it illegal. 1, the servers processing the transactions are located inside the US. And 2, it illegal to offer gambling without a gambling license.

We were looking at building an SL casino and sought legal advice from 5 different law firms. They all said this.

Yes, it does. It exists in datacenters in Texas and California. Local, state, and federal laws apply to the physical location of the servers. The laws also apply to the physical location of the person accessing it.

When you first came to this game, was it in the terms of service that ageplay is acceptable and recommended as a worthwhile activity? I highly doubt it. Slowly taking away what we thought was allowable? I doubt they even knew ageplay was going on for a while.

Speaking from eleven years of internet experience, there are always some people that believe a) the game is crumbling around them, b) the admins are turning into scrooge, c) they're trying to take your fun away or d) they have no purpose. All the examples i am thinking of are still running and while they may not be as appealing to beta testers as it once was, 'those people' were wrong for the most part.

Until you said that, I never knew gambling in SL was illegal!
I missed that announcement.
Good thing I never tried it heh.

I would think though that gambling in SL would or should require the same rules as gambling on any other gambling website. I have not tried it since the year 2000 I think but if I remember correctly, you sign up using your credit card so they can validate your age and location, then they tell you "Oops! Gambling is not allowed in your state/location" so off you go and you cannot use the gambling website.

However, since there is no verification neccessary in SL that would not be possible unless the Lindens only allowed verfified accounts to access certain L$ features which I don't see happening at all. Even if LL verified every accounts location they would have to do a complete system overhaul to ensure that checks were in place to prevent gambling by residents who were not in states that allow gambling.

However, things have changed since the year 2000. As found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gambling#United_States

Some states have specific laws against online gambling of any kind. Also, owning an online gaming operation without proper licensing would be illegal, and no states are currently granting online gaming licenses.

So even if it were legal in some states, who needs the gambling license? Linden Lab or the person/avatar who owns the land....OR the person/avatar who owns the object or device (gambling machine).

Then if folks start grabbing gambling licenses the I.R.S. becomes involved and so forth and so on...(a long, long discussion, I know). There's so much involved in all this that it's just not even worth it in my opinion. If it were me in Linden Lab's shoes I would not open this can of worms and probably avoid any controversial issues just as they are doing with the age play.

I know their employees in their legal department are too busy to answer emails so I imagine they are working on legal issues that pertain to Linden Lab. And we should probably expect they will be making decisions that are in the best ineterst of Linden Lab.

Sexually abusing a child is sick, twisted, immoral, reprehensible, emotionally and physically damaging, and did I mention it's incredibly sick?

I don't really think you can say any of those things about gambling. I don't like gambling in SL. But to compare the two is just ridiculous.

Wow, thanks for all the replies. Some of you seem to be trying to argue that gambling is not illegal in SL because of the fact that it is located in a virtual world and because Linden Labs doesn't "guarantee that they will buy back L$ and because they control the value in a way." According to the FIVE law firms an earlier poster talked to and (who I really care about) the US Justice Department (who are the ones that will be raiding your house), your argument is false.

#1 The virtual world argument is not valid. As most know you are bound by the laws where the servers are located (California & Texas) as well as bound by the laws of where you are accessing the information from (your house). In the LL TOS they state that they will prosecute illegal activities (as per California Law) and/or submit information of those activities to the appropriate authorities.

#2 The "L$ is not a currency" argument is also not valid, as it does not need to be any kind of "currency" but only anything of value. As L$ are traded on an open market and are demanded, they, by definition, have value. Now those are not my words, those are the words (paraphrased) of the US Justice Department talking specifically about SL and the L$. (The ones who will be serving you the arrest warrant).

I'd say that Lawyers and the US Justice Dept are the ones we should be listening to in this regards, not casino owning avatars who are deep in denial.

As per the above, my request still stands. It is time to take a look at the real issues, issues which could have major repercussions for the virtual world of SL, its players and Linden Labs in general. It is time to finally phase out Gambling in SL.

DJ L actually has no monetary value its sanctioned by other players buying and selling it among one another they cant regulate it and its not officially illegal. Looks into it. L is considered jack till its cashed out in which case it falls under the laws of the state they are in. You cant regulate it for another reason and that is they cant prove the method that people attained the L from they could jsut claim we all earned our L from gambling and there for are not allowed to cash out at all if it were probable. Your completely within your legal rights to use money provided to you in a game to gamble its go to actual value until you as a person sells it to someone. Its to hard to regulate things in the virtual worlds like SL and at the moment there are no such laws against gambling with play money. So my statement does stand if you take the factual basis that L has no actual value into account.

L$ is simply a digital mark that you put into a virtual world Like adena gold gil etc and people can go sell that money outright and if they had a form of gambling in WoW or whatever they are still within legal means. At the moment there isnt any regulatory law regarding SL as it doesnt really fall under gambling your playing a computer not other people and your stacking play money in world on things not real cash.

Hey I haven't played The Sims Online in a while...I cannot remember, is there gambling in there?

As stated above, and by the US Justice Dept, gambling in SL is illegal and prosecutable. the L$ is not a legal tender, but a legal tender is not needed to make it illegal to gamble with. You could gamble with water for all they care, as long as it has any kind of value, it is illegal. As L$ are traded on an open market and is demanded, it by definition, has value.

Really, the whole argument is moot. There have already been FIVE law firms AND the US Justice Dept. which has said gambling in SL is illegal. I'm not sure what else you want.

Pan you miss the point that the arguments are valid if gambling were illegal then by your argument all people that currently own casino's would have already been prosecuted. The law is a bit unairing on the side of virtual worlds at the moment and its not really an issue at the current time. While the arguments would be moot if there were actually laws governing it. And yes they do need to abide by certain rules but you wouldnt really know until someone tries to shut down a place in SL for gambling. Notice they havent been shut down yet? Casino's have been around for awhile in SL so the logic that its illegal because its illegal on the net doesnt entirely work.

At the current time there arnt laws governing gambling in virtual world Pan there is some that could argue things but then L holds value in there by your logic me spinning slots to attain an item in a game like Last Chaos i could be arrested because that item has some value to me. We wont go into more of it. But regardless bringing up a religious right thing into as the OP did was a little off. There may be some things that could be considered illegal about it but if it were truly illegal for them to be setup im pretty sure LL would of gotten rid of them. Also remember something in the Terms of Service states that they take no legal recourse for things You yourself choose to do. Hence you as an individual would get in trouble not LL if they follow legal procedure properly anyways.

However once a legal premise is set for laws here we will have more to go on its hard to say a thing about it or argue if its legal or illegal at the moment as there is no premise at all regarding virtual worlds and gambling.

Changed in below posts while its still technically "illegal" LL doesnt need to answer for what their users do.

Can you show me a link of where it clearly states That Gambling inside SL is illegal?

Ok well i found a link myself so that remains. However LL cant get in trouble for it and they can only really prosecute people in the U.S for doing so. And yes while it may be illegal the law itself is a bit off and really. Betting water is illegal well thats a bit off dont you think? The question is will they look to prosicute people inside second life. The short answer is likely no but we wont know till it happens LL wont do anything about it because each user has their own recourse for what they do inside second life. Still i dont think much will be done in regards to it any time soon. However one thing I will argue is that we cant make up rules because of Religious beliefs that still stands.

To quote the article your likely referencing to for argument.

"Second Life is a service, a platform, much like the Internet," says Catherine Smith, director of marketing for Linden Lab. "As with the Internet, users are responsible for ensuring that their activities fall within the bounds of the law within their local jurisdiction," She points to a "terms of service" statement that SL residents must accept, which prohibits any action that violates a law or regulation.

Their local jurisdiction you notice? People in the U.S are at risk however. The law really in iteself needs to be rethought because its a little rediculous...

Hi again,

Yes, casinos have been around for a good while in SL, BUT that was before the new anti-online-gambling act was passed a few months ago, which changed the whole picture. And now we have the US Justice Dept citing that new Act and SL. Doesn't look good for gambling in SL. Gambling in SL is illegal, and I'm sure it is only a matter of time before gambling becomes a banable act. In fact, that is what I am requesting right now.

Yes, the new law does focus on US residents. The thing is, LL seems to be saying that they are restricting ageplay because it is now (just became) illegal in some countries. Look at my quote from Robin Linden on my OP. Well, if they are banning ageplay because it is now illegal in some of their markets, well, gambling is VERY illegal in one of their largest markets AND the market where they are located, the USA.

Lastly, I should make it clear that I do not support or partake in ageplay.

I guess we'll see what happens. Good luck to you!

My problem with your argument is that you brought religion into it. Dont use that as an argument for anything or everything other then being humans covered up from head to toe will be a banable act eventually. I dont run a casino also i actually do what i do in SL at cost for music and the people that like to listen to this stuff. And these new laws a bit odd they cant control what people in other countries do so casino owners outside the u.s cant be prosecuted by those same laws.

Casino owners in countries where it is legal would not be prosecuted, no, BUT LL could become liable as they are bound by the laws in which their servers are located.

The main point is, LL is restricting ageplay because it is now illegal in a couple of countries. I'd think that as per that action, they would want to restrict gambling, which is highly illegal in MANY countries, as well.

Yes, I have seen you around.

Good luck Lina!

They arnt actually banning age play they are banning advertising of it as well as saying you like 8 in profile etc. Can say you look but not that you are.

The minute you start editing the content that flows through your pipeline, you can no longer claim to be a common carrier as Ms. Smith is trying to here.

That's why I said restrict, and not ban. Although I'd say banning would be better.

Haha... nice try Ms Smith!

When LL provides a communication mode between people then, yes, the people are responsible for what they're doing, saying, planning, participating in, etc.

In the case of gambling though, players own and play with nothing of value. It is only when LL pays for their L$s that gaming in SL can then be considered gambling. If gambling in SL is illegal it only becomes illegal when LL pays real $ for the winnings.

The Reason, why LL now bann Ageplay is really simple.

A Dutch Lawyer wanna start some legal activities against LL cause this lawyer means that Ageplay = Child Molester here in SL and also in RL.

This person thinks anyone here in SL who do normal Ageplay wihtout any sexual interactions is also a child molester in SL and RL.

So thats the Reason why LL do that.

The Gambling should be banned too, thats right, cause in many Countrys casinos are only allowed with license or only allowed if the Country is the Owner.

And if any Country starts to act against gambling here in SL then LL will ban Gambling too.

that thing quoted refers to the TOS in regards to it stating that in cases were it would be illegal it falls on the person rather then LL.