If AgePlay Is Being Restricted, So Should Gambling...

Why even bother talking about this? Everyone has there own opinions about things that they like or dislike. But honestly, secondlife is just a GAME, what makes you think video games that you find on 360 and such have? They have an age limit, and also commit to gambleing, rape..etc... But just like every person in america, there is someone out there who is just a little too nosey for there own good. I've been playing mature games since i was freaking 10 years of age. Now at age 19 and if you've played games for years on end, you get kind of used to the fact that people are gonna do what they wanna do. Second life will not restict people of there own real world imagination placed inside a world full of textures, models, prims, and whatever else is comeing out in the future.

For crying out loud people, get over yourselfs. Nothing you say or do will prevent things like this from happening. Age is the only real problem here because there are people out there that are playing mature related games in there early teens. I know a bunch of people at age 14 playing second life in the main grid, telling me how the teen grid is just plain boreing. But I cant judge them because I used to do the same things when I was younger.

So yeah...gambleing, sex, ageplay, etc...If your into it, it's gonna be in second life. So cut it out. One more thing... I SERIOUSLY dont see how your personal religion is gonna stop the opinion of thousands of people. I'm christian, but you dont see me shoveing my own thoughts and opinions down peoples throats. I personaly dont give a damn.

So again, get over yourselfs.

Elva: You don't think the same thing is possible with gambling or homosexuality?



Elva: Hateful is more a matter of opinion than objective fact. Some people see gambling and homosexuality as hateful. I would think that rape is ESPECIALLY hateful by definition.




Elva: I am not aware that they are necessarily being perverse "in public". They may
have created sims where they do ageplay out in the open IN THAT SIM, but such sims specifically said they were for "ageplay" to begin with. So if ageplay offends you, just
avoid those sort of sims. For example, suppose I make an island called "Ageplay island".
and I let ageplay roleplayers have all sorts of ageplay sex on the beaches, on balconys,
etc. Why would someone who finds ageplay offensive even go to such an island? How
would that be different than let's say, buying land, building a house there and inviting
an ageplay avatar over to have ageplay sex?




Elva: Earlier you said you think it should be banned. If it's banned it's banned and such
a ban would INCLUDE having ageplay sex in your home on your own land.



Elva: Because if they ban ageplay, then what else can Linden ban? Are you aware that
in some countries, homosexuality is punished by death? Should Linden then consider
banning homosexuality in sl because someone from such a country might log on, engage
in homosexual sex in sl, and go to prison and possibly be killed?




Elva: Yeah, so if you don't like ageplay then don't go to sims that are created for the
purpose of ageplay. The thing is, ageplay was banned precisely BECAUSE people were
NOT minding their own business.




Elva: Yeah, I have been griefed when not really looking for it (for example, when I
went to the pi sandbox to experiment with some builds). However, I have NEVER
encountered ageplay without specifically looking for it.

Excuse me for interupting, but...
SECOND LIFE IS NOT A GAME!!
Second Life has no goals, rules of engagement ("roll 2 dice and advance that many squares" as opposed to moving as far in any direction as you want), challenges based on those rules ("I need to land on that square", or anything else that defines a game. Here are a few:

French sociologist Roger Caillois defined games in his book Les jeux et les hommes (Games and Men), published by Gallimard in 1957, as an activity that must have the following characteristics :

1. fun: the activity is chosen for its light-hearted character
2. separate: it is circumscribed in time and place
3. uncertain: the outcome of the activity is unforeseeable
4. non-productive
5. governed by rules: the activity has rules that are different from everyday life
6. fictitious: it is accompanied by the awareness of a different reality

Computer game designer Chris Crawford attempted to define the term game[2] using a series of dichotomies:

1. Creative expression is art if made for its own beauty, and entertainment if made for money. (This is the least rigid of his definitions. Crawford acknowledges that he often chooses a creative path over conventional business wisdom, which is why he rarely produces sequels to his games.)
2. A piece of entertainment is a plaything if it is interactive. Movies and books are cited as examples of non-interactive entertainment.
3. If no goals are associated with a plaything, it is a toy. (Crawford notes that by his definition, (a) a toy can become a game element if the player makes up rules, and (b) The Sims and SimCity are toys, not games.) If it has goals, a plaything is a challenge.
4. If a challenge has no “active agent against whom you compete,” it is a puzzle; if there is one, it is a conflict. (Crawford admits that this is a subjective test. Some games with noticeably algorithmic artificial intelligence can be played as puzzles; these include the patterns used to evade ghosts in Pac-Man.)
5. Finally, if the player can only outperform the opponent, but not attack them to interfere with their performance, the conflict is a competition. (Competitions include racing and figure skating.) However, if attacks are allowed, then the conflict qualifies as a game.
Crawford also notes (ibid.) several other definitions:

* “A form of play with goals and structure.” (Kevin Maroney)
* “A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal.” (Greg Costikyan)
* “An activity with some rules engaged in for an outcome.” (Eric Zimmerman)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game

I would say that Second Life is not "unproductive" and "ungoverned by rules" (there are terms of service, yes, but that's like playing Monopoly and saying there's a rule against cussing), Second Life has no goals except those which you yourself provide ("toy".

pfft...still has the elements of a game. So dont go around waveing your wiki at me. I know what a game is. and is not.

Second Life Is A Game

Ahem...

Crawford's definition of a "game" eliminates half the two-player arcade games in existence, including wildly popular ones like DDR. Callois either includes Second Life or excludes organized sport beyond the high-school level.

Second Life is what you make of it. If you choose to use it as a game its a game to you. If you choose to use it as a development platform its a development platform. If you choose to use it as a 3d chat room its a 3d chat room. If you choose to use it as a 3d art studio to showcase some of your work then its a 3d art studio (or gallery whatever term you wish) It has no set reality for any group of people and can be a different experience for everyone. Therefore Second life is a game to soom while not to others....

Lina: the same thing is true for professional football.

Well in that light it could be said about any sports or game . D&D Online is a game to people to me it was a job (i helped make it but i never played it...) Mind you I had nothing to do with the game mechanics just texture work !

The bit you missed in what you quoted was, the guy is complaining because gambling is banned by his religion.

let me say that again: Religion.

But he wants (I repeat, WANTS) age-play.

...so let's track this idea for a sec. Which religion is it (because he's a highly moral chap with his anti-gambling stance, staying inside the rules of his sect) that specifically BARS taking a bet, but PERMITS interfereing with the physically and mentally immature for sexual pleasure? What is this, the Eighth Church Of the Latter-Day Kiddy-Fiddlers?

You are being trolled.

(I think that on this score, as someone else said, SL is not the USA, online: however, it is some kind of giant experiment in the nature of social taboo, mainly illustrated by American topics...)

Hello,

I had to chime in here again to point out that what you have posted here is false.

One small half line of the reason why I feel online gambling should be banned in SL on my original post is because it offends my religion. If you read it again, that is followed by a long and detailed paragraph talking about how gambling in SL is ILLEGAL for all Americans and for those in many other countries. My point was, if online sexual ageplay is being restricted in SL because it is found to now be illegal in a couple of foreign countries, then gambling should also be restricted in SL, because it is ILLEGAL in a good number of countries including the one country Linden Labs is based in, and where they have their physical servers in, the USA. Not to mention a large percentage of their in world population are Americans. (I didn’t say largest, I said large, so please don’t come back with that “There are more Europeans than Americans” response.)

Also, if you read through the thread, I mention several times that online sexual ageplay is gross and that I do not condone it.

SL may not be “USA-Online” but it is physically located inside the USA and must adhere to all local and state laws at the location of their physical servers. But this is besides the point as LL has already restricted something (online sexual ageplay) in SL because it was found to be illegal in a FOREIGN country. They should probably follow suit and restrict things which are found to be illegal in their own country.

Please read the thread and the posts I made before trying to put words in my mouth, or Fox News my remarks. I hate repeating myself. Thanks.

I'm sorry, can you explain this question? I thought this thread was about some kind of sexual role-play between adults.

If role-playing something is the same as doing it, there's millions of murderers in other MMORPGs like Everquest and Warcraft that need to be brought to justice.

Or is there something more than role-play involved here?

I can answer this one

Just about a month ago now a law was put into effect that makes online virtual role-playing sexual ageplay inside Dutch borders illegal in real life. So, if you are Dutch and get onto SL and ageplay sexual pleasures with someone, even if they are an adult, you can expect a real life knock at your door with an arrest warrant. Linden Labs cited this new law as a reason why they are now restricting sexual ageplay in SL.

Argent this thread was about banning gambling because ageplay was banned and the OP brought religion into the argument which isnt really valid reason to ban anything...... Its also not even illegal in the U.S the UJD would like to think it is but they still need to overturn the Wire act or they'd be in deep..... The law bill or whatever passed in 06 basically only made financial institutions backing a gambling site. The site itself isnt technically illegal in a federal sense like the UJD would like it to be. It is illegal if your state expressly prohibits all forms of gambling. But few states expressly prohibit it as most follow the Wire act and other laws set down in the past already.

The UJD would like to outlaw these types of sites yes and are looking to make them illegal but until they overturn the wire act there isnt really anything illegal about gambling in SL unless as i said the state specifically prohibits gambling and even then Virtual worlds are a grey area in that law.

And pan while that is true how would dutch authorities in that sense prove said acts unless they actually saw you doing it. Are they going to put someone on every dutch resident in SL to make sure they dont do bad things? Short of that they cant really prove a thing in that sense (well unless someone was dumb enough to save a video but thats a whole different thing that is beyond creepy...) they have no real proof of any alleged action other then you having SL on your computer which is pretty circumstantial and wouldnt really hold up in court. I dont partake in age play myself nor do i feel the need to.

LL made the right move in restricting it but we cant start the mentality of just because A is wrong B has to be wrong to or we'll end up in a pretty drab world.

Wrong. Online gambling inside the USA by any American in a virtual world or not, is illegal. By advising people otherwise you are possibly setting them up for prosecution. I'd be careful what I say...

Anyways, from what Reuters is saying, they are doing a detailed story on virtual gambling inside SL. It should be out in a few weeks. It will be interesting what they find. Keep an eye out for it.

Another issue is that when it's being done graphically, the images that appear on your screen can be considered computer generated child pornography, which is illegal in some countries.

Look into stuff a bit more closely Pan. They haven't made online gambling in itself illegal unless it has sports betting involved in it. The UJD wants to but to do so the wire act needs to be overturned. This was already tried a few years back by them and wasnt amended in any way to cover games of chance or things like poker etc. What the UJD is trying to do is broaden the wireact to make games of chance and poker illegal. Notice one of the biggest online gambling sites BoDog still exists even with sports betting. They often advertise on TV as well.

You can run around screaming that its illegal all you want but there is no case law regarding virtual worlds at the current time hence your entering a grey area were saying its illegal is a bit off. At the current time its not illegal to do so if you actually understand it rather then judging what a spokesperson said the law means. I can claim eating pasta is illegal if i was a janitor at the UJD and that makes me a spokesperson in news eyes because i simply work there. That by no means makes eating pasta illegal. Saying it's illegal is actually unfounded and is only backed up by hearsay and opinion. There is no fact that it is illegal, no case law and the fact that the wire act hasnt been over turned makes up for a very good argument that its still legal to make a casino in SL unless your state expressly forbids it.

Look up the laws both the one passed in 06 and the Wire Act. The UJD can claim whatever it wants is illegal but the supreme court and or congress would need to make it into actual law on a federal statute which as explained earlier requires overturning the wire act which I also stated earlier hasnt been done and has already been tried and found the how it was set out to only cover sports betting/betting on contests was what it was meant to do. They can try again by all means and at the moment it may get overturned but at the moment it isnt and as such the legality of casinos in SL are in legal standing unless state laws states otherwise.

And you can argue its illegal till your blue in the face but that doesnt make it true. Also note that under federal law to legally be considered a casino more then 5 people need to be involved in running it. This was a law passed in 1970 and has never been overturned. It was passed as an anti-racketeering law. At the moment the law put in effect in 2006 only covers sites that get financial backing from a financial institution..... Which a good number of places did because your not really going to start up a casino out of your own pocket. If it flops your screwed unless your rich....

As such care to explain why they let bodog up? The company has expanded into having its own TV show now ... BoDog fight and includes sports betting and betting on their events as well as poker. If in fact your claiming illegal then why is one of the biggest sites still up pre tell?

Lina, I knew you would write back with a book, heh.

As I can scream that gambling in SL is illegal all I want, you can scream that it is not all you want. The fact is, the US Justice Dept has stated publicly that gambling in SL is illegal as have lawyers, which people on this thread have talked to. I think I'll take the word of the US Justice Dept with an overall conviction rate over 98% and the word of lawyers before I listen to you.

You should be aware however, that by coming on here and saying that gambling in SL is not illegal, when in reality it probably is, you could be setting some people up for prosecution. What happens if someone listens to you and opens a casino or goes gambling and then you turn out to be wrong and they go to jail? That would not be nice of you.

Again, Reuters is doing the research now and I'm sure they are interviewing the Justice Dept, lawyers, law makers, etc about the issue. Let’s see what Reuters finds. Their story will be out soon.

"Gambling" for thirds of a penny are likely beneath the IRS's care or concern.

"Gambling" in the land baron or lindex day-trader sense however may actually catch the attention of the IRS more quickly. There are stacks and stacks of law governing investment income and trading. And if anyone doesn't think that land barons and lindex day-traders AREN'T gambling... they should review the definition of the word.

Considering that real US$ are involved in lindex transactions and some land transactions... (and typically at higher dollar values than in-world casino gambling) I wouldn't doubt that they get hit first when the new laws come.

Oh... and to the hijack "game" vs. "not a game" spin-off above...
SecondLife is MORE than "Just a Game".

or... "SecondLife" is to "Game"
like "Football" is to "Going Camping".

I went by a "poker room" here in SL the other night just to see how it worked. There were people sitting at the tables gambling with more than a million L$'s. One guy had over 2 million L$ on the table, which he was gambling with. Most everyone at the table had at least 100KL$. The average "pot" was a good 50k each. That amounts to thousands of dollars, not "fractions of a penny."

With the land baron stuff. There is nothing illegal in real life or second life regarding flipping land or trading currency. It is done in real life everyday all over the world. As long as you pay your taxes if/when you cash it out of SL, you are on total legal grounds. Gambling, on the other hand, it totally different.

Definition of gambling "wagering money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods". Wikipedia

We have the word of a spokesperson for the UJD thats not really public and we have the word that someone contacted lawyers again not really anything other then heresay. BoDog you can cash out go read their site. So by your defintiion it is illegal.

"Getting a payout
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2. Select the payout method you want to use by clicking the appropriate link on the left side of the page.
3. Enter the amount you want to be paid.
4. Click Request Payout. Your pending payout is marked as Requested.

If the request is received before 5:00 p.m. EST, processing will begin the same day. If the request is received after that time, processing will begin the next day. Payouts are processed each day on a first come, first served basis and can take as little as 24 hours to process. Additionally:

* Your payout request can't be processed until we receive the funds from all pending deposits (which can be four to seven business days after you make a deposit).
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Check by Courier

You will be charged a courier fee of $20. However, if your payout request is more than $2000, the fee will be waived. Before requesting a check by courier, ensure that the address in your account information is current. To confirm your address:

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Hence while your stating one thing that BoDog isnt be definition "gambling" it is by that very same definition your painting SL casino's with and falls under the same guidelines so pre tell again. Why is BoDog still up if online gambling is illegal? There are stipulations in the law if you'd read the thing instead of listening to what your told thru heresay. Again we run into you not looking into sources before arguing stuff. You can get a payout from BoDog therefore its considered gambling by your very own arguments. Therefore stating its not would be hypocritical.

If you bothered to look into things a bit more you'd find alot more articles arguing the legality of it and more on the law. Your going by the word of a spokesperson and as someone said earlier that can be anyone in the UJD even a janitor. And i can claim a lawyer told me eating pasta is illegal. That doesnt make me actually have gone out and gotten legal advice as to why pasta is illegal nor does it make pasta illegal. Do some research on your own as I did and see what you come up with. Heresay isnt fact and a spokeperson's word means jack. Till there is case law on the matter its a grey area.
And while i do respond with long posts its because people dont actually research anything on the matter before going on about legality or illegality of something.

We can all claim one thing but until its on public record for someone actually being successfully prosecuted we cant say one way or the other. Brush up on the wire law and find out for yourself if the act passed in 06 actually overturns it. If it doesnt then your claims stating its illegal are fruitless because the wire act never covered poker or games of chance even if there was a monetary thing involved. Do research on it seriously you've cited one thing and that was an article. One person claimed contacting 5 law firms but we have no proof of them doing so just their word.

Again subject to research see what you find. If you actually find something overturning the wire act ill honestly concede that im wrong but there isnt anything overturning it so good luck with that they need to overturn that or broaden its scope to make poker and games of chance online illegal but have not done so yet. So while they can claim one thing the law expressly states another which is an act the UJD has challenged in the past but it was still held that how a judge read it and stated thats how it was to be read was right and that t only covered sports betting and betting on contests but this is usually up to the states gaming laws if its allowed or not even with that act.

And by your very definition above from wikipedia even winning a prize would be considered gambling.

Lina, gambling sites are not illegal if they are run outside the USA. But if a gambling site is run inside the USA, it is illegal. If a US citizen uses the site, it is illegal. If a bank transfers the money to the site on behalf of a US citizen, it is illegal. I don't know much about BoDog, I actually thought you said "bulldog" at first which was this corney gameshow. If BoDog is taking bets from US citizens, it is illegal and they will all be going to jail soon, not to mention the banks sending the money will be fined millions of dollars.

Look at the message that pops up when I go to the party poker site, which was by far the largest poker site on the internet before the new law was signed into law. Pay special attention to the line I have quoted at the very end of this post:

"As anticipated, the President of the United States has signed into law the SAFE Port Act. This act contains certain provisions known as "The Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006". After taking extensive legal advice, we have concluded that the new law will make it practically impossible to provide U.S. players with access to PartyGaming's real money poker and other real money gaming sites.

This law is the first piece of federal legislation to deal specifically with Internet gaming, and it signifies the U.S. government's intention to stop the flow of money from Americans to online gaming operators such as PartyGaming through criminal sanction.

The law mandates that U.S. financial institutions cease processing transactions intended for use for online gaming now prohibited by the new law. As a result, over the coming weeks and months credible financial institutions will be terminating their financial processing for online gaming which violates the new law (many of the larger ones have already done so) and at best what will remain are principally marginal transaction processors willing to skirt the law. We do not see this as a favorable environment for our customers. In addition, the act specifies that, under U.S. law, a wager must be permitted under the laws of both the player and the operator’s place of residence.

Accordingly, we have suspended with immediate effect all of our real money gaming business with U.S. residents. We expect this suspension to continue indefinitely, subject to clarification of the interpretation and enforcement of U.S. law and the impact on financial institutions of this and other related legislation. Access for non-U.S. players will be unaffected and access for Americans wishing to participate in our free play games will also continue uninterrupted. "

Pay SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THIS PART: "In addition, the act specifies that, under U.S. law, a wager must be permitted under the laws of both the player and the operator’s place of residence."

Give it up Lina, gambling in SL is ILLEGAL for any and all US citizens and LL is probably breaking the law by allowing it to take place on their servers.

Place of residence could mean a number of things. This could mean what their state determines or what the country determines. Why would the law state it needing to be legal in both area's of residency if it wasnt legal somewhere in the U.S then? Residency doesnt automatically assume that U.S or U.K i take up residency in the State of Pennsylvania. What you bring up also states that banks can no longer process money used for online gambling. It doesnt state that it specificially prohibit them from gambling just that them getting the money into the system to gamble cant happen under said law. Cold hard fact of it is SL isnt using any financial institution for the money in world.

It would come down to the intention of the L then when you want to get into legality. Unless its traded out into USD how can they legally touch it. If i go and buy 50 1,000 L jackets after earning 50k gambling what can the UJD do about it really. Im not getting money for it and im using it to buy digital content. Legally they cant stop gambling in SL but they could stop the selling of that L into USD transactions if the money was won thru gambling which would be rather hard to do. SL is still a grey area. They claim its illegal yes but they have nothing actually stating it is and it gets into a tricky area of things involving alot of other things i wont even get into.

Just remember this is all into interpretation of the word residency. If its interpreted to mean country then yes your right but it could also mean state in which case my stating its on a state by state basis is correct as well.. There are also stipulations in the law of things that are legal if you read over the actual law. We wont get into that. Needless to say its touching into a grey area and without case law you cant in fact state its illegal. I can state its legal under grounds of the wire act which they so apparently superseded to get their own agenda across. This could all be overturned after bush is out of office as well but by then alot of damage will be done.

I doubt SL will be the first thing on their plates and likely is on the bottom of any sort of list to target. BoDog also might not be taken down because of just how big they are and it'd get more people's eyes open about such an unscrupulous law. The question is if someone went to take this to court would it be legal or illegal? The short answer is I dont know its open to interpretation to a degree and as such the short answer is we dont know until it is found in the first precedent of someone being prosecuted for owning a casino in SL.

I hear you Lina. I guess we will see what happens. Keep an eye out for the Reuters story. It should be interesting.

Byes!

I didn't write "just a game".

If you're concerned anough about it being a game to make you put "just" in font size + 6, bold, then perhaps the problem is where you put that "just" into "a game".