I guess Social Democratic is a code word for Totalitarianism

The whole thing about governments is moot anyways -- we already have a king... anyone seen King Morse Dillon around lately?

Siggy.

oh yes i got to worship HRH YESTERDAY im so lucky!

/me nods and agrees completely.

Perceptions matter folks!



All those cases *do* reflect on the group! Like it or not it's only human nature. Don't try and change the way people work, 'cause you'll only get frustrated. Every organization in the world knows this lesson!

/me was stressed about player gov'ments but is paying to much per month to keep doing it!

that's part of what it takes to govern.

i suspect experiments of this type start out without the privilege of having "the experiement in place". the start of the experiment, is by its very nature, part of the experiment.

actually, if you think about it, there is plenty to see, and you should consider what it is that people do see.

government is not an easy task. government is fire.

but not all of them purport to be a government. visibility into government is an important issue.

the projekt is an experiment. it is an example, and it intended itself to be one.

I believe Talen is objecting to people constantly pissing in the test tubes.

i'm not telling you how to run your group. i am making some observations. i find the government issue interesting.

i have a stake in what you are doing. it's just not in line with your stakes is all.

i don't need my opinions to matter. they are just my opinions.

you don't have to debate me; that is your priviledge. however, i can question you, and you can choose to answer or not as you please.

but what you say and don't say seem quite salient to your endeavor.

how you treat people, inside and outside of your group, is quite telling.

i'm sorry i must have missed the question. could you repeat for me? thanks.

government is largely perception.

one side spins one way, and the other side spins another. and then they hope they have made the voters dizzy enough to go their way.

threads of this type are in the nature of government. how they are dealt with is a strong indication of what manner of government the projekt is forming.

you should consider that.

i suspect that how a goverment deals with such situations is part of the experiment.

Bingo!

Well said, Shadow.

Honestly, I think everyone's a bit too jumpy about gNutellaburg.

If I started a regional government, and I believed people were "smearing" the experiment on the forums, I probably would have reacted the same way as Ulrika.

Let's re-look at what she said:

Ulrika states a need for the group to come up with a plan to handle libel on the forum.

Ulrika explains why she feels it is a need.

Ulrika states that peopl should "first" try to use internal channels to resolve issues. Notice the word "first". This is not stating that people ought not to speak out, just that people should try and deal with things internally before speaking out.

I feel it's very important to point this out, since I think the accusation that gNutellaburg is silencing members is a little melodramatic based merely on this quote at large. If I have a group, and someone airs the problems on the forums before talking about them in group, I'd feel betrayed, too.


How is this somehow Ulrika being totalitarian? She is asking the members for help coming up with a plan. What is undemocratic about that?


This appears to be what people have most over-reacted to. To me reading this, it appears that Ulrika is throwing out ideas as examples to get the ball rolling on discussion. She even expresses the concern about "false claims [of libel]" should that measure [of filing libel suits] be used. This is entirely a responsible way of doing it.

(Personal opinion I think there are too many drama queens who leaped on an out-of-context quote to try and criticize Ulrika for what they feel is a threat to their freedoms in SL. Korg, you should be ashamed of yourself for trivializing Hitler & friends and comparing him with a experimental, voluntary government in a GAME. You are clearly the forum's biggest drama queen.

Granted, I think people are correct in pointing out that gNutellaburg still has some organizing to do, and some unifying to do on exactly what their global SL stance is. At this point though it's clear that they are taking these forums seriously, so perhaps we can give them more time?

...

Ulrika & gNutellaburg & Co: I applaud your effort to speak with one another and come up with a unified face on issues. One thing I had personally criticized you all for was this very thing - that different members were saying different things about your intentions. (Specifically, whether gNutellaburg had the goal of expanding to all of SL.)

The fact that you are looking to talk first internally is absolutely on the mark, in my opinion. (as long as you're not quashing internal discussion, and there is nothing in this quote to indicate that)

Although... it's clear as well that you folks still have a lot of work to get this unity. As with any complicated project, you need to have a great deal of clarity and coopoeration to your goals. But this, of course, the challenge you have asked for by trying to have a complex government just for the sake of having one, and where one is probably not needed to this degree of complexity.

Yes Government is largely perception and how we deal with it is an indication not of what manner of government we form but of what manner we will deal with conjecture, half truths, and mud slinging.

I keep hearing Ulrika's name being thrown around ...while yes this started as her project it has become a group project filled with individuals with opinions and their own voices. We haven't even gotten things underway when daily things get posted here about our subversive actiivity's. What we are doing is plain to see and is open to see to anyone that goes to the group forum. Have we done everything correctly? Who knows, none of us have ever started a government before....none of you have either.

While we struggle to find our legs feel free to try and knock them out from under us ...but don't get pissed if you get kicked a few times while trying. While I know there are many against this project and government in general you have to come to terms with it because it does exist within a player run group. I'd also suggest you have all taken part in mini governments considering thats what all groups really are...a bunch of people coming together setting their own rules and agendas for their group.

Every wrong turn we take will be magnified under the looking glass by more than a few people and like I said before we're just getting our legs and mistakes will happen. Just keep in mind this project isn't being forced on any of the participants or anyone else in Second Life. If you want to join and argue your points by all means please do...if you you don't want to join but feel the need to speak out...again please do just do it in the appropriate places.

that is the question at hand.
who are you to tell me where and when to speak?
who are you? singular? plural? consensus? authority? etc.
and what are the appropriate places?

He is Talen Morgan:
Dark Prince of the Undersea;
Collector of souls;
Fear him, mortal.

This is an appropiate place as any.

I would just ignore people when they tell you your post is inappropiate, especially when you've put some obvious effort into it.

Well said, Beryl.

I am part of a group that doesn't want your opinion in our group forum in policy threads if you aren't a member. And since it is a group forum we can moderate it to make it so ...LL gave us the right when they gave us the forum.

I think you know where the appropriate places are...if you don't they'll be pointed out to you soon enough.

Why, thanks, Mal; apparently we agree on something.

a governemtn that takes only opinion from within itself runs into other possible dangers.

it's a foolish moot point about the forums. it's a red herring.

think about it. i could join simply to post. what does that say about group membership? are there requirements to being a member? are there commitments? is airing an opinion sufficient?

think about your position carefully. you are trying to quash opinions you don't want to hear.

you may be dressing your arugment in the "justifiable" basis of group membership, but the net result is to silence people.

the appropriate place is the place where dialog occurs.

Ahh, you're talking about posting in the group forum. Sorry, my mistake.. Yeah, not a good idea to post there if you dislike being censored, unfortunately.

Petition SL to make a government forum or player dispute forum or something so we can all discuss this like the adults we supposedly are..

and they are?



really now...I answered your questiona and thats your responce?


actually you haven't read anything there have you? If you join to post serious comments and are genuine in your responces how would that be a bad thing?


No ..I'm countering lies and crap from people that have no clue but just want to bash the project...you can have all the opinions you want...if you want your opinions to mean something and count in the project then join...otherwise your opinions aren't doing much are they?

Thats just bullshit and you know it...have you been silenced? Again if you want to have a voice in the project then join ...if not don't tell me your opinion should matter.



The appropriate place is where you aren't interfearing with a group just because you want to. Post in any forum you like. You can even post in our group forum but unless you are a member you won't be allowed to post to any threads where decisions, policy, and or debate about our project is ongoing because you aren't a member and you shouldn't have a say in our groups activities unless you are.

Stone, we can accept outside opinions, though they are better placed not within threads where we are seriously trying to hash out details. If someone comes to our group forum and places a new thread that has some opinions in it, as long as there is no personal attacking, I doubt seriously we would feel the need to delete the thread. What is acceptable for outsiders to post in our group forum is something we are discussing. Another appropriate place to discuss issues with us in within any of the other public forums within valid categories. But I'm sorry, even if we haven't decided yet it is the action we want to take, we do reserve the right to delete posts in our group forum that are counter productive. I didn't say critical, but I think by now you should understand what types of posts we mean.

And yes, we are working on a propsal for qualifications for citizenship. However they are more along the lines of anyone can join but lets have these simple requirements. They are not going to be so harsh as to really keep anyone out. But within the laws we are making and such, there could be a chance someone could lose a government position etc. Again, these would be in keeping with the laws we pass. A judicial system will be in place as well.