I guess Social Democratic is a code word for Totalitarianism

Perhaps choosing not to accuse your "citizens" of slander and threatening lawsuits might improve solidarity and maybe improve your reputation among your putative supporters.

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Also, not deleting a post like the one I made above might help convince people that you aren't a fascist.

I've often wondered if communist (in the Marxist sense) rule required totalitarian enforcement. The real world certainly leads one to believe so (e.g. Soviet Union, Red China, Cuba). The behavioral ecologists have well shown that us primates do tend to favor the self over the group which we can sometimes subvert because they help our genes (kin-selection, parental solicitude) or they help us indirectly (reciprocal altruism). But these altruistic acts are exceptions and require special circumstances which don't typically obtain in much human endeavor.

So you want to set up an altruistic commune but find that there is are a multiplicity of views on the subject which does entail messy debate. But, you've a ready made solution borrowed from such austere political thinkers like Stalin or Pol Pot: silence the dissenters. Fortunately, you are merely deleting posts instead of people; that's good. But it really does fly in the face of your founding ideals. So damn the ideals and full steam ahead.

Also from the same thread that my suggestion was deleted was a "citizen" post:
Well, you've certainly earned my condemnation.

Very well written, Malachi. Since I read that in their forum I was trying to word a thread about it but you beat me to it

Congrats

This was why I thought a seperate government forum is necessary.

Ulrika is a genius but the temptation is too much for the best of us, I think.

We are discussing this issue internally. I'm sure it will be resolved. Feel free to continue to look for things to bitch about the project. I'm sure it will not be hard. We will handle our own though.

eek i just learned im considered a liberal LOL

"In the future will we simply file a libel suit? "

eek they are out to get cristmas island in the virtual settlement LOL

To be fair though, it is a group forum, and people aren't respecting the fact that it's meant for that, and are posting dissenting disruptive stuff in an internal discussion.

I would suggest that they had a private forum with the entry requirement being that you must be a group member, but then I guess they'd be accused of behaving like some secret society.

I think if you're going to raise what you consider to be an issue, even if it's relavent to what you're seeing in the group forum, that it would be far more considerate to start a new thread in a public forum and link or quote.

Of course, coming from a troll like me, that means jack shit. But I thought I'd say it anyway.

I would ask why its considered 'discussing' when it involes group members, and why its considered 'bitching' when non-members discuss it.

I guess genius is in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, awhile back, my group had a major split. Part of the drama played out in our group forum. As a group moderator, I could have deleted dissenting posts (especially those that portrayed me as a mean-spirited butt head). Instead, I chose to let the posts speak for themselves. In the end, it made all of the difference in the world.

Thank you Kris!! This is exactly how I feel. I mean seriously. If people were doing these things in other group forums, they would get their posts deleted or reported (if they were in there causing strife that is). Due to the nature of our project we *are* trying to allow outsiders to ask questions and have a voice. But some really do come into our forums and seem to just be looking to pick a fight.

We are discussing this issue now. We may avoid deleting posts in the future if we as a group decide that is best. Not so much for us who have to sit there and take it, but for those outsiders who cry foul when their posts are deleted. In the future, there is a branch of the government that will be responsible for monitoring our forums. I am not certain at that point what the "laws" will be. And of course since representation will change over time (though also stay the same at times), things will be ever evolving.

People seem to not grasp that we are still in our foundling stages here. We are growing, we are learning. For crying out loud, give us a break. We may make some mistakes, but we are trying to learn from them. And sometimes what outsiders consider mistakes are not so at all. They just have no idea of the internal workings of the project.

It has nothing to do with members or non-members. It is how people present their case.

On the national level this might be considered totalitarianism. On the group or company level it is called public relations.

Yes. My personal opinion Paolo is to let the posts stand. Let others see for themselves how people act. Let them be the judge. Of course I think this way about the general forums too. Some people would not be quite so liked if so many of their posts had not been deleted over time.

The following quote is taken from Malachi's initial post:



hakes head in disbelief:

You're kidding, right? A lawsuit?


Note to all who might voice a dissenting view: It is STRONGLY suggested you use the word "Opinion" in your comments, thus removing the 'libel' issue. This goes for everyone.... not just the Neualtenburg folks.

Excellent post. Some of it I wanted to express but I don't want to upset Pendari anymore. the rest of them I could care less about. I know that sounds cold but the 2 leaders of that *projekt* just grate on me.

The eye of the beholder comment is classic btw.

Pendari,

<<For crying out loud, give us a break.>>

Censorship is one of the tools of totalitarianism. That's why I condemn it when the Lindens do it, and why I condemn it when any of us do it, too.

??? okay, that reply lost me. I was talking about what you actually said. Dont bother to reply. I got my answer.

If any of the officers of Neualtenberg would like a private forum for internal discussions out of the constant scrutiny that they are subjected to here, please let me know - there are several groups that have private forums on SLUniverse and I would be glad to offer one to you and provide tools to manage access to it.

My hunch is that this "libel suit" would be within SL only. Err, not RL libel. Perhaps something that we work into the laws of our city. Again, something we are discussing.

I am a member of Neaultenburg, albeit one who is not very popular with the power-elite of the City. I have no doubt that it is my INTERNAL dissent that is a good portion of what is at issue.

Don't go thinking that its nothing but "outside agitators" who have them concerned to the point of censorship and threats of libel suits. I've already had MY posts censored there as well.

- Ace

Interesting Toy. I thought we chose to be civil to each other after our last misunderstanding of each other. I will reply if I like. You can choose not to read it if you like.

What I meant by my reply is that it does not matter if it is a member or not a member. If you are bitching, you are bitching. If you are discussing, you are discussing. Some people just want to bitch about our project. Some want to discuss it. Therefore, I stated what I did because it does matter how someone presents what they are trying to say.

according to the posts in the forums, govt isn't all that welcome in sl right now. With that said I think if your even considering such a thing you might want to omit the part about suing for libel. I seriously dont think that anyone in their right mind would give up their rl information just to be in a govt group. I could be way off base maybe there are those who would. If I even thought for a second that joining any group in sl might get me RL sued I would have to consider LL role in allowing such a thing. Stranger things have happened in the past year so who knows. Good luck with this tho it should be entertaining to watch it unfold.

Cat

True! And as an insider, you know that there are those of us that are working to see things changed. Ulrika herself has already decided not to post at all about the project in any forums other than our own now. Sad that she should have to be silenced like that. It is her choice though. But I think it shows that she does realize there are some PR issues that we need to deal with, and that is one of our top topics right now.

I don't. I wasnt saying it is. That's an entirely different issue that they need to manage seperately from people just 'poking their noses in'.

So, lemme get this straight? Not only do you want to spend your second life playing governments, you want to play it playing a dissenter to a government you hate?

Ya don't have to answer that, cuz it'd derail the thread. I was just being cheeky.

Thank you Cris. I will pass the word along and see what others think.

And I do so right along with you Selador. However, this is a case of moderation on our group forums. We are trying to work out internally what should and should not be cause for censorship. My personal opinion is none at all. Not everyone is as thick skinned as I am (and I'm not even that thick skinned). hehe.. The posts that have been deleted thus far really contributed nothing, but I still believe they should have stayed.

Again, the project is in a transition of power phase. We are working through a lot of issues as they arise. We won't think of everything from day 1.