I guess Social Democratic is a code word for Totalitarianism

*sigh*

Can you go butt in while George Dubya and friends decides policy? No.

Can I as a Brit under the control of my government go and voice my view in Parliament while they decide governmental issues? Well, given our security arrangements, yes.

But thats beside the point. We can watch it on tv later, sure.

So why must the projekt members submit to being hounded while they do the same?

So those of you who say they shouldnt work behind closed doors, what if they do it in private forums then post the transcripts? Or a forum that is read only to public?
You can still come back here and say your piece about any of it.

Or is it just that they really shouldnt be allowed to play Second Life their way at all?

Surprised that it wasn't laced with sarcasm?

I really did think the ideals of this project were something that would intrigue you.. .guess I was wrong.

Join the group and you can join in on all the policy threads you like...post here if you want...But if your going to post about the group grab your balls and be a man...not all of us have the same views and were struggling to find a common thread. Comparing us to hitler and the like makes you look like an asshat....grab an umbrella the sky is falling.

Korg,

First of all, I am not in the group, I made the offer to them after seeing what has been happening to their group forum. They could post a thread about the color of a particular building, and it would turn into a flame war by anti-government SL players who are not even in the group. The group is an experiment in government for the members of the group. People want to be left alone and have no government in SL, but at the same time they cannot leave a group that wants to try to have their own government alone. That speaks of hypocrisy and obsession more than anything. Either participate in the project and express your governmental dissent, or don't - but you can't have it both ways.

Yup I wrote that.. and I was wrong. I have to apologize to Ulrika. Being a group forum where group members are deciding policy for the group outsiders shouldnt be posting to those threads because the arent in the group. I think non group members should be allowed to post and ask questions but Ulrika was right...they shouldn't post to ongoing policy debates among members...

Cris.. I could care less about YOUR motivation here. I will post what and when I feel like it when an issue is addressed in a public forum. I do not post in their group forum - tho that is open for a public read. You do what you want with your website and leave me to my thing.. okay? I am not messing their group up.. I am responding in a public forum as I choose to.

As someone not involved in the project, I must say, it's a bit disheartening to hear that Ulrika has stepped away from her baby. I'm assuming she did it for what she considered was 'the good of the project', but I don't think it had to come to that. I hope Ulrika will return and continue what she loves and wish N.Berg the best of luck.

why not?

the projekt was to be a shining example for sl about how government could work in sl

and it seems that there is a backroom. not that that really bothers me. but that seems counter to the projekt's stated goals.

can government be transparent to those inside and outside of it? and why or why not?

You were speaking of a private forum - they do not have one, I was pointing out that I made the offer to them, since now they are being accused of having secret meetings when they have agreed to anything. I also did not tell you not to respond - I could honestly care less about YOUR motivation either. I was speaking to the need for the group to have a private forum, since their group forum is constantly interfered with. There is nothing wrong with posting here, the problem is what is happening in the group forum.

Part of the problem is the pressure for SecondLife as a whole to be placed under a player led government constantly being pushed into the general forums. It happened often over the past week(s?). This was primarily by one person, but that person being one of the leaders and who also runs a website promoting this type of SL vision appeared to be preaching in my eyes. Being contained in a SL city is fine , but when it starts being so publically posted I personally feel the group is inviting people to put a word in. When it stops being contained in the confines of a group forum the line of who should and shouldn't post becomes gray.

I agree, it should be off limits to post in another group's forums.

How is there a backroom?

Nope. I did not compare you to Hitler and the like... your own actions have.. as I outlined specifically. There was an obvious "counter" to the things I said, and it has not been written/posted here... but I will leave that to the "opposition" to discover.

As I said, this is a GENERAL forum, not the group's own. I am not trolling there... or here for that matter. I expressed an opinion of something brought here - I didn't originate the thread, or any other about project workings and business.

With respect to joining the group - right. So tha tI can be "Silenced"... of f*cking course! That is the thing for me to do when everything I have heard of the group's inner workings smacks of thins I am diametrically opposed to.

As for being a man, lol... Right.. as if your "solution" is the only possible measure of such a thing... Thanks for the laugh and be sure to enjoy your continued strugle.... but careful that the rope around your neck doesn't strangle you whil eyou are playing with it..

what's the logic behind this? not that i necessarily disagree, but most logics that permit exclusion of this type are questionable.

the main question being, in what fashion are the opinions of people outside the projekt invalidated?

I hope you're joking! Why is it ok to disrupt this project and not someone elses? Why aren't they fighting Darklife every inch of the way? Don't the N.Berg members deserve to do whatever they want in SL?



Yah. They were prolly naively assuming people would LET them try on their own land and in their own forum in their own time.

debate that shuts people out - a backroom, closed doors, no sunlight, etc.

Applauds! I have enjoyed your posts

*hands you a candy cane

Cat

They have their own group forum. This thread is not there. Anything said in this forum is "Fair game" to any resdient in SL.

I'll pass the word along to her Princess. For what it is worth, Ulrika is not completly gone. She is taking a break but will be working on some things like animations, some builds, etc. We have around 40 members in the project right now. Not all get involved in the political side. And even fewer are forum regulars. She will be around, but is very much taking a back seat right now. I personally understand her need.

Cris and Talen, Thank you for the great posts. You hit on exactly how I feel with so many who want to have a voice about the project, but seem to be clueless that they could actually be involved and making a difference. I am coming to really really admire those in the project that are strong enough to voice their opinions and see some follow through, and not just sit from the sidelines and say their peace.

We can all play the game of "If that were me.. If that were mine... If I had any say so I'd do it this way..." But until you are actually involved, you honestly just have no real idea what you would or could do.

i'm not. i never ask rhetorical questions.when it comes to government, being naive is often a fault. when the projekt started it was to be an example. an example with limited visibility is dubious.

Again, I did not tell you to not to post here.

I understand what you are saying Stone. At the same time, if we are constantly having to deal with issues outside of our focus, it makes it hard to get the government in place. We first need to have the experiment in place to mess with it before we can start saying what does and doesn't work. Right now we are just working with a foundation. I have no doubt things will evolve and change and expand after we can finally get underway. There is little right now to see of the experiment though because we are still in our beginnings in the grand scheme of things.

And it is truely disheartning to have so many picking us apart when we really have not even had the chance to get going yet.

Uh.. been there.. done that.. it IS messy.. unfortunately, I cannot explain when or where for reasons that I cannot disclose....which is why I keep reading the group's forums.. to see if you CAN solve the problems.. but it seems that is not going to happen in the manner that was initially proposed and certainly NOT with the methods being adopted.

For the record, various groups started out as publicly accessible as this one "purports" to be. However, having published the "ideals and goals" of the group, it is totally unreasonable for others, especially non-group members, to NOT hold the group accountable to those goals and ideals as a method of "measurement". Assessing any group's progress is not something that can only be done by the group or its membership - and not only from within. It is the human capacity for independent thought which practically begs each of us to constantly assess that which we see around us...

As for shooting oneself in the foot.. those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The public record (group threads that have not yet been deleted or edited for content) are a testament to the problem of this group not believing in learning from the past.

Believe it or not, I have constructive advice for you... If you believe in what you are doing.. ignore any criticism. Not all is worth responding to. Some is.. and some comments are mere requests for information. If you can't separate the three, then you have major problems - and not just PR ones.

No the project was not supposed to be a shining example of anything in Sl . A group forum isn't a backroom and you nor anyone else has any business posting to threads about hammering out the constitution or debating amendmants unless you are a member.

If you choose to ask questions or post to non policy threads please do...we're always looking for new ideas and insights.

As far as backroom....how many in world groups are there? Do you see all of thier Im's?

OK I will speak now,

First what they do behind thier borders is thier business.
At this point as long as it doesnt spill in the populace of SL there is nothing for anyone to get annoyed about.

From what I have read now Ulrika posted that in their Group forum so in all honesty it never belonged here in the open public one to begin with.

Second as long as they keep their government where they have, who are we to say what they do? We cannot concievably say anything because that would be no different than Player A telling Player B what to build on their land. Its moraly unjust.

Third I have stated many times before that I detest an overall player run government and the broadcast of future plans to encompass all of SL. This myth and rumors were cleared up the other day and Pendari has gone further to announce that Ulrika will no longer be making broad all encompasing statments about thier governmental system trying to encroach on the mainstream of SL.

So to debate thier governmental system in the open forums is in simple terms just wrong. Why because they have stated that they are not trying to take over SL with their little government experiment.

So with that said lets give them some respect and let them hash out their own internal problems without the Naysayers jumping on a kneejerk reactions and beating them up at everyturn.

However, on the same turn the same must be requested of them to keep their buisness within the confines of their organization. Why because when it spills onto the "General" forums and threats are levied and self rightious indignatious statments are made then they have opened themselves up to being open game. This is what lead us to this point because of "Percieved" Public Relations.

So can we come to that agreement if we are not members we dont poke in their business and give them the respect they deserve within the confines of their organization?

As a opposite of the aforementioned if we are members of a group we agree to keep it in the confines of the organization. Thus giving the respect to others that the group is so ardently seeking.

This should quell a lot of animosities and if it ever emerges past those boundarys Id say either group be it Main stream SL or whatever organazation would have the right to retaliate in Kind.

In addition if a person is not a member of a group and I mean any group they have NO SAY in that groups organizational structure or how it is concievably run as long as that group doesnt make broad threatening condecending remarks that encompass the main stream of SL. The same can be said of a group the Groups Jurisdiction ends with its members and boundaries of its land.

I don't think I can make it any simpler than that unless I simply State "You stay on your side of the fence I will stay on Mine." Simple Huh.

Ok Im done let the Chainsaws begin

Shadow

well you can't speak to my actions because we've never spoke and my words and deeds are in plin site for everyone to see. I'm not looking for obvious counters...nor am I looking for armchair generals fighting a long forgotten war.



noted.



Bullshit responce. no one in the group has been silenced.. and instead of hearing get the facts for yourself.