I guess Social Democratic is a code word for Totalitarianism

I have absolutely no problem with the N-berg project and think they should be able to do what they want within that space, or any other similar project come to that.

I would however, have a HUGE problem were that to move into the rest of SL. From the plethora of threads about this subject, it would appear that opinion is shared by the majority of posters.

Occasionally I read the N-Berg forum to see what's happening but would never post there. It's only when the subject is raised in the General Forum that I would consider posting.

Latonia

Hi, Gwyn, be a pal and summarize? Table of Contents? Reader's Digest version?

Fantastic post Gwyneth!! You did a beautiful job and I feel your post was worth every word. Thank you so much for shareing it! I continue to be amazed at the wealth of intellegence I find in the SL community. Truely an experience I am happy to not have missed!

Fantastic job? It's a rhetorical defense with no support... only shadows and mirrors.

Kinda like when you called Pen a nazi huh?

Reader's Digest for Hiro:

1) People perceive SL as a libertarian/anarchistic Utopia, or something very close to that. It isn't. Actually we all recognize that the system would never work without the Lindens (so it's a benevolent dictatorship where you are free to do everything, so long as everybody is happy. Happy people make LL happy.)

2) Utopia leads to stagnation, since Utopias resist change. This means that new ideas are not well accepted, and rather, they are feared, as they embody change. Change is a Bad Thing.

3) Highly creative individuals are mostly "hermits" and avoid socialization (even if they fully respect the wishes of others to socialize). Thus, the top creators fear organization (ie. grouping together for a common purpose). Organization = power domination/control and the end of personal creativity.

4) Current power structure is LL, but the aristocracy as well. Self-organization is feared by the aristocracy - it will challenge their status quo. If the aristocracy is unhappy, LL is unhappy as well.

5) Large-scale projects (covering one or several sims) are done by "temporary groups" - creative individuals joining forces for a short-term goal: getting an awesome build in place. There is no sense in continuing the "project" afterwards (ephemeral art). You prove the world you can do it, and start on the next project. Long-term projects need organization (beyond the building, that is). SL creators rely upon scripting and automation instead (btw, this is the basic reason why we have shops with automated vendors instead of shop attendants)

6) Misconception (a politically correct word for "ignorance" is the basis of misundertanding. See the "belief" that we're living in an Utopia (while we certainly aren't) or that we enjoy "absolute freedom of speech" (when we actually enjoy freedom of speech as stated in the UN Declaration of Human Rights).

7) Self-organization is a challenge to all the above, because...

1. it assumes change is the basis of SL (or life, as a matter of fact)
   
2. it relies upon collective thinking instead of individual thinking - compromising instead of ego-flaundering
   
3. it challenges the aristocracy by placing power and control on much lower levels (ie. a non-land owner, inside an organization, may propose rules of behaviour...)
   
4. it proposes a working model for long-term projects, where the egos of the original creators are not so important as the overall group structure, where things like "profitability" or "organization" are thought by a large group of people sharing the responsability of "making it work", and the reliance upon people (not automation) to continue projects beyond the initial building
   
5. it defines concepts (usually by compromise) to avoid misunderstandings. E.g. things like "freedom", "truth", "power", etc. become clearer inside a self-organized group: all share the same concepts by exchanging ideas/opinions.
   

No wonder people fear self-organization It's a dangerous since it changes stuff, and since people fear change, they fear self-organization...

... a rhetorical defense with no support ...

hmmm...

Come on, Korg, you can certainly do much better than that! I've read so many of your posts, and while I disagree with you on 98% of them, I have seen much better comments from you than that.

Challenge me! Get the Reader's Digest (since it's much shorter), and, point by point, tell me where "I don't have support".

Just remember, my own "support" is about 10,000 years of human civilization, culture, history, and philosophy... these are my "shadows and mirrors"... but I'm certainly open-minded enough to admit that Humanity has no definite views on virtual realities yet (since there simply hasn't been time enough for developing these views), and all this knowledge may be wrong, or simply not appliable at all.

I'm not afraid of Change, and I always question my own ideas, and am completely open to review by my peers - fellow residents in SL. So go ahead!

korg has ayn rand! you lose gwyneth

All very interesting but I look at SL as a service provided by LL that we all pay for. We get changes often which are upgrades. LL is not a coop its a company providing a service. When others paying for this service try to dictate how the service is used I become upset.
I purchased the service for what was provided. Mainly the building, socializing is secondary to me.
As long as the service is provided as LL stated I am happy. When a few, yes a few, try to bring about changes the majority didnt sign on for it may come to the point that the service no longer is what I signed on for.
As far as Im concerned LL does a great job, are there problems? Of course, what growing company doesnt have problems? The problems that concern me are technical ones, not social ones.

Ah well, can't compete with Ayn Rand

Actually I didn't call Pen a Nazi.. I said her actions and statements were akin to Nazi arguments you putz.

okay --then it's like when you called me a waste of sperm.

I'm sorry, you just compared her to nazi's.....thanks for setting me straight on that issue.

Well, that was a TRUTH.. IMHO. A self-evident one if you want to look for supporting facts.

your HUMBLE opinion?

LOL

the truth is korg was fired from his cush overpaid government job because he didn't bathe regularly. IMHO. self evident.



(my childishness even surprises me.)

BTW.. even trying to associate me with anything remotely related to Ayn Rand is ludicrous. It merely shows that you understand neither of us.

I'm not for or against the NBerg experiment, but the perspective I see here only makes me more wary of it. Undertsanding is a two way street.

Best wishes, though. I say put Pendari in charge

korg, sometimes your posts look like you just cut and paste from an objectivist web site. IMHO.

Toy, one of us is missing the other's point...

Do you mean that you had a pre-conceived idea what SL is supposed to be, you joined it because you wanted to part of that world as imagined by you, and now get upset because the remaining 16,999 residents in SL have changed that idea?

In my case, I had absolutely no idea of what to expect. My previous experience with open-ended MMOGs was AlphaWorld in the early 1990s. What I saw was a cool place where I could not only build what I wanted, but talk to people about that. And that's why I payed LL. For the "service" of maintaining a grid of computers that allows me to build & talk to people.

I don't see, from either the ToS or the Community Standards, what else LL "stated that it was providing". Actually, at the beginning, I didn't even have the slightest idea if the Lindens were playing the game, or if technical support was provided in-world or not (only after joining and getting the notecards I imagined that there were some employees around...)

However, the minute I joined SL, the world was changed because I stepped upon it. And the same thing happens about every 10-20 minutes or so, when someone just signs in and changes the world as well. I can't complain and say "hey, this is something I don't like, get away from MY world". It's not "mine", but "ours".

SL is not about the amazing technology for creating stuff - there are fortunately so many programs (several of them for free) to do 3D modelling. This is a very old argument, and I think I'm re-quoting myself for the 12th time.

As soon as there are people in the world... the world changes. Do you want to complain to LL about the people in-world?

And why do I think you're directing the idea of "people making changes" to this thread - when actually most radical changes were suggested by the aristocracy, and certainly implemented by LL to please them? (Hint: think Estates) The rest of the changes were replies to bug reports. People file bug reports, propose changes, LL review them, they are implemented. Should we abolish those bug reports?

How often, since you've started playing SL, has a small minority proposed changes that have affected the whole world? Another hint: think First Land.

So the key issue here is simple, Toy. Some of us are willing to embrace change, discuss it publicly, think about how they will affect our enjoyment of our SL experience, and necessarily adapt to it. There would be no Feature Request/Feature Suggestion forums if there wasn't a willingness of a small minority to discuss those things. Take a look at those forums and see how many of the proposed things there will affect your own view of what SL means to you. Even the largest of those threads doesn't have much more than, oh, say, 500 or so people discussing it. A small minority, yet proposing changes that will affect all of us.

Should we simply shut all of them up, close the feature request forums, prevent people from reporting bugs (either in-world or off-world), forget about interactive Town Hall meetings?

I think not. I also think that you don't really mean what you've written, but you mean something else. Please explain...

And yes, I fully agree LL is doing fine. The way they do custom support is completely unbelievable. I filed what I thought was a bug concerning the "default clothing item", which I felt was too confusing with the Shirt item. Well, I had 4 replies to that, and Kona Linden brought over the issue to developers over lunch. I'm ASHAMED of myself for bringing up a tiny itty little detail like that to the Linden's attention. But LL doesn't think like that. All tiny itty details are important to them.

So, if the "default clothing item" happens to be a different colour on the next version upgrade, I'm all to blame for. There. I've effected change, and haven't consulted the 17,000 residents about it. I humbly submit myself for your judgment, and I plead guilty - the evidence being the email records, which Kona Linden may freely supply.

Whereas you obviously pride yourself on your deep understanding and insight with regards to the rest of us?

If you condense Ayn Rand down to mere objectivism, well, again you proved my point. You don't undersand how wrong it is to associate me with here writings.

How dare you calim I have any insight into your minds? I would much rather be in a looney bin... wait.. If I did have such insight, I would be inthe looney bin!

I see you more associated with the writings of Dr. Seuss....although that might be a slight to the good Doctor.