No kids in the real SL, EVER!

Please respond to this thread Philip Linden. The community has engaged in more than five pages of mature constructive dialogue. Surely this warrants a reply.

/bump

Yeah, agreed. Pleas at least give us a "Thanks, we'll consider your thoughts." so we can stop /bump'ing the thread.

Not a good idea!

No minors in SL -

A 2nd separate KidGrid would be cool - far and away from SL.

I definitely agree that minors should not be given access to SL. I know there are some already playing SL, I have had 2 banned - one was only 10 years old.

If LL are so keen to have children playing SL, they should set up a completely separate grid with no interaction between the two. But I would ask them if they would first get SL right, get rid of the lags, tp problems etc before they start thinking about this.

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Hensonian Pennyfeather

I wouldn't let kids in here for a nickel! That being said......people have expressed more concern with their own gaming experience than with the potential negative effects upon the CHILDREN themselves. I find this to be very sad. This game is far too adult for children.
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You are absolutely right - I am more concerned with my own gaming experience. The children are not my responsibility - it's up to their parents what they do and don't do on the internet - not me.

I also noted that Philip referred to LL relinquishing some control or words to that effect. If he is alluding to Resident Government I think he will get major opposition, going by previous posts on this subject.

Latonia

I remember him saying that. I doubt its resident gov't.

how about licensing the SL technology so i can make my own grid where i can set up my own government as a possible scenario? did someone bring that up yet in this thread?

if secondlife is gonna be the next WWW, LL can not really expect to manage it alone or even with a few partners. children will be a reality in that "new" www.

I think seeing the techology being licensed would be a long-term objective. Philip said that technology gave them a huge advantage over competition, so I doubt it'll leave LL's hands soon.

*bump*

Please do your part to keep this thread going. I cannot believe a Linden has not replied. This really fucking upsets me. I am thinking about doing something so outrageous that a Linden will be forced to edit the thread. If we can get them to edit a reply then they would have to respond. Leaving the thread untouched and editing without response are two very different things. The latter would be cause for an uprising!

I really cannot believe our opinions and concerns have gone unanswered. I always assumed our opinions were welcomed and encouraged. This really fucking eats me up. I am more than willing to get suspended for the cause!

Recently there have been a few things proposed by the Lindens that have divided or inflamed the general SL community. The two most prominent (that I can think of now) being the proposal to allow children into SL and the proposal of a self government.

It looks like the Lindens are searching for a way to grow and perhaps they are coming to the community asking for our opinions and suggestions?

That said, I think that they understand that the majority consensus is that their current residents are very leery of self government and don’t want children allowed into SL for a number of reasons. Both proposals presented would inevitably alter the creative and sexual freedoms that many SL residents have enjoyed.

Realistically though, it could be said that “creative thinkers” are not the mainstream and in RL they are frequently relegated to a dark corner unless they are enormously successful or they have died (think about how many painters nearly starved when they were alive but their paintings sell for millions now).

This could happen in SL as well unless the creative thinkers come up with some idea’s to help LL make a profit in a way that continues to maintain their SL creative safe haven.

The interesting thing about MMOG’s is that there are none out there really like SL. Many of them could be plucked out of existence and dropped right into SL as their own separate grid. Why couldn’t we create our own Everquest, SIMs, Asheron’s or Dark Age? Right here within SL but as separate grids?

Maybe we should offer our help to LL to create the content of completely separate, new grid for children? The deal would be that SL stays EXACTLY the way it is i.e.; only allowing people 18+ to enter and no self government. We could make a deal with the Lindens to provide content if they made a deal not to over extend their resources. They must have something in mind if they have proposed the idea at all.

It could be an interesting project – and it could help keep the present SL status quo for all the people who have come here for the freedom to do just whatever the hell they want to do, within the parameters of the TOS of course.

It’s just a thought…. I could be totally out to lunch on this. In fact - I will be out to lunch in about 15 min. But I thought I'd throw the idea out into the fire and see if it sparked any flames.

Rose

** edited for typo

i agree that children should not be in SL, but i know a couple people who are 17 or 16 that to me should stay. Not every 16-17 yearold is mature, and fact is most arent. Im 18, so im right on the edge. I understand the legal stand point about SL's mature content and why its 18+. One of the people that i know who is 16-17, stays out of mature events, and i respect that, and am glad for it.

So, i agree about maybe having a seperate grid for children, but what about having a mid zone, where people from the adult SL and people from the Children SL can meet. Maybe something like 6 or 9 sims. Hmm, but that being said, that would make both SLs connected, because how will you be able to IM someone (a child from the children SL to an adult in the adult SL). Ahh, well you could have in ppreferences to be able to accept IMs from people in the other SL, but objects and money cannot be transfered, so that mature object and/or textures cannot be exchanged.

Hmm, well another thought is, LL would have to sort through all the textures and sounds from the children SL for mature content. Will they want to do this?

What will happen when/if SL opens to children, how will they restrict them on mature content, from either uploading or someone giving it to them?

I dont think LL really thought about this.

Well, thanx for listening to me rant on hehe. I hope i made some sort of point

Okay, I can't keep posting here with the same phrase ... so here are some suggestions should the Lindens decide to start this travesty -- err, project.

If SL wanted to expand this medium to children, it should be a completely seperate software to download, strictly for children, and parents/members here would have to register new accounts to get it. Parents must order the service, register themselves and their children who will be using it. And their should be flags indicating who is a parent.

As for teens in the 15 to 17 range, they're on their own. I'm not for lowering the age limit in SL for them. Either play with the kids, play a different game that fits their age bracket until they come of age, or take the chance in the real SL grid. Just don't have the daftness to put a year of birth in the forum profile.

In NO WAY should the current grid merge with the kiddie grid. Let it be an entirely seperate entity. It only has SL's technology but whatever content that is made will be created by the children logged in that place. Like the preview grid we would log into before major updates.

Uploads will have to be screened. Maybe screening could be organised on a per sim basis. Plant people at a monitor to either accept or deny every texture, sound, animation, etc presented. Have a word filter zap out profanity. Lindens, Parent helpers present the whole time, maybe even chaperoning each cluster of children. Restrictions on appearance sliders and limited clothes template manipulation. At the end of the day, sweep every sim and delete any objectional material. No exceptions. Sweeps have to be made. Screening has to be enforced.

And restrict the grid's open hours. Like leave it open for both countries from 11am to 9pm, their time. This way, they'll still mingle with folks from different countries. Having the grid open 24-7 is an invitation to predators.

About predators, only parents can register. They have to have children of 6 and up. And before they can access the kiddie grid, they have to agree to have their name screened. Work with the FBI or check those names against a registered sex offender database. It's not a sure thing though.

And as I typed all of this I also thought, why not try the whole government body in that world too. Assign parents, have them straighten out any player to player disputes. Have all the censorship, conservatism, and government intervention -- everything I loathe about the real world -- there.

Haha, yeah go for it. I give this thing half a year, at best, before it implodes on itself. Or someone dies from an anxiety twitch. Hey, as long as there's --

NO OFFICIAL ACCEPTANCE OF MINORS TO SL!

You do know that you're not supposed to have mature content in PG land. This statement here says you're already disobeying the rules.

Here's what I read:



If your stuff in PG areas isn't PG, then it shouldn't be there. The fact that the people are 18+ or not shouldn't matter, as some people are over 18 and don't want to see that stuff every waking moment.

I'm 19 (gasp, shock) and I frankly avoid mature land if it's got mature items. Yes, there is some mature land which is totally PG (at times) and I'll go there if I want to.

One of the main reasons Teenagers (who are really mature [not in thought but in action] these days) are not in SL already is because of COPPA. That's just a hassle that they don't want to deal with at this time. I heard of quite a few "Thereians" who were banned for being underage (under 13) and they were already well established in there and most people were unable to tell (some kids are smart) until told.



Short: Stereotypes which are applied to 100% of the populous usually fit way less. I know some smart teenagers from there and I think they'd fit in great here. Would make the game more fun too.

Kris, in response to Eggy:



I agree 100% with Kris. I would also like to point out that not long ago Eggy was lamenting the fact that some idiots are extremely persistent about talking to him while he is working in SL (and trying to ignore them), I wonder what age group most of those people fall into? My guess is 17 and under.

I hear people saying some of these minors are mature, or more mature than those who are 18+. Why then don't we just do away will all societal age restrictions because some minors are mature? What the hell, throw caution to the wind. Permissiveness begets MORE societal problems with youth. Just ask any family whose 17 year old daughter was allowed to go to spring break in another state or country unchaperoned and ended up raped, dead or both. Permissiveness is an excuse. An excuse born of laziness. I guess it just seems easier to say yes, than to explain why you're saying no.

While the arguments agianst minors are all very valid, you have to relize.

While minors dont belong here, in order for Second Life to truely become INTERNET2, it needs to happen. It will happen sooner or later, and if minors really want access to the grid, they will find a way.

Final say, while there will be problems at first, and possible protests, just like the 1.2 land changes, it WILL happen.

Not really picking on Ryen in particular here - just that he was the last to say something about it... Second Life is not going to become any 'second internet' any time soon. Or any time in the distant future, frankly. This software is barely out of beta, and in some ways still feels like alpha. So can we all stop going 'well, its gonna happen so might as well think about it now'.

No. Let's concentrate on TODAYS SL. And todays SL doesn't need kids to help fix it.

When Philip Linden says 'ok, peeps... today we replace the WWW...' THEN lets talk about the implications of that. Because right now, as optimistic as those who are talking about it are, all they are doing is muddying the waters with regard to the real topic at hand.

It's unfortunate you don't share the vision that Linden Lab and many of the developers in game feel.

Read my earlier post in this thread, perhaps I'll give you some thoughts. This is something that needs to be considered early, BEFORE SL becomes big, because it will likely need a lot of hashing out of ideas and a lot of planning.

Saying "the software is barely out of beta" is... well... okay, let me just ask you to explain to me why you think this. What makes you say this, considering streaming content, built-in 3-D editor comparable to early versions of 3-D Studio, fully functional customizable avatars, a large shared inventory system, in-game commerce and land ownership, full customer support, a scripting language, programmable particle effects, and streaming music?

OK. I am relatively sure Kris does share the view that someday there will be an immersive 3d web. Do you really think if and when that happens it will be a wide open fully age inclusive free for all? I don't. Also, Phillip claiming SL will take over the net is about as believable as Henry ford claiming he had a monopoly on cars. Get a grip.

If you really believe this is so please explain why we have movie ratings some 80 years after the advent of motion pictures.

Sorry man, no offense intended, but there are lines in society and rightfully so. I am ok with a COMPLETELY seperate grid for kids, but the day they are allowed to travel the main grid count me out.

You mean internet3, internet2 already exists. www.internet2.edu

Smitty - I have met many people between the ages of 10 & 18 that I think are a lot more mature than some 40+ adults that I meet. Maturity is not the reason that I object to people under 18 being in SL.

The issue is the effort involved in monitoring someone under 18 to make sure that they are not contacted by a predator and changing the content of SL to make sure that it is appropriate for someone under 18.

I'm sure that it will be easy for some parents to find [legal] content in a PG SIM which is within the guidelines of the TOS to be unacceptable for their child. Instead of canceling the childs account, rest assured, the parent will contact the Lindens and demand that the offending content be removed. This will infringe on everyone's ability then to create content in the PG SIMS.

I personally, would rather never see the complaint even come up. Really - there are places for children and I just don't think that we are traumatizing them by not allowing them access to everything that adults do.

A separate grid, dedicated to children would be the only way that I can see this idea work. However, I do think that there will need to be "child content" set up before children ae allowed into that grid and I think that all of the tools would need to be revamped to the extent that certain things that can be done now would need to be restricted there.

Rose

Yes, immersive 3d web, but not "eventually" in the scope of in the far distance. Soon. A couple years. The dream of the Metaverse is one of the new Internet.

Your analogy with SL and Ford is flawed. Ford WAS right that cars mass produced became the new mode of transportation for all. That is a better analogy. Yours assumes LL / Philip is in control... which I didn't get from the meeting. It's clear LL will have to eventually relinquish control and become part of a larger standards community. Philip did mention the relinquishing some control to grow, soon.

As for the movie ratings, I don't understand what you're getting at. Will the Metaverse have ratings in the future? Yes. Does it now? Yes. What does that have to do with whether or not it explodes to the whole world?

As for your last paragraph - as I pointed out earlier - not a single person has been for letting kids into the "adult" grid of SL, myself included. I think LL will hopefully get the picture.

I also hope LL will respond to this post so we can stop /bumping it. hint hint hint

Smitty,
you beat me to mentioning that. Internet2 is an educational, alternate Internet. I don't think that's what Ryen meant.

I had left the program THERE because of the kids . As having to kids my self i wouldnt want my kids on here until beleive it or not til they were like 21 . there are so many places for kids out there aready . we need to keep this adults only . please lindens no kids as this is a place where we can come and be ourself ... instead of biting our tounges ... I come here to relax and get away from being a parent .. i would hate to have to bite my tounge and watch every thing i said just beacuse there were kids near by. i love this place a really do .this reminds me of a online virtual vegas for adults . Let the kids have the program THERE and TSO... but please beg of you have this place for adults ...where we can let our hair down ...if kid come in it would spoil it . that my thought on it ..just redirect the kids to the Program THERE anmd TSO.... im not ready to be put a side and waste my life away in a rocking chair yet ...

There is no room for children on SL. I agree with everyone's ideas of why it wouldn't a good thing at all. Besides there are more than enough games out there for children to play. This game should only be for adults playtime only. LL might gain some more new subscribers as children but the real bucks are with the adults. There are some adults that put alot of time and money into SL, and alot of adults will leave SL if children are allowed in. Even in real life, there are places that children not allowed to come in and SL should also be one of those places as well.

Ok, my 2 cents are in!!!

I will admit that I haven't gotten a chance to read all 15 pagesof this post so I don't know if this has been addressed. That being said...

Most of the posts regarding this issuse seem to revolve around a few key arguments. Either A) We don't want to be exposed to the kids and the crap they bring in or B) We don't want the minors exposed to mature content/people who might endanger them/etc.

The one thing I've noticed is that I haven't seen much discussion over the gambling aspect. With the L$ having substantive value now that it can be traded for US$, in world gambling has moved from gambling with imaginary credits, with little real life implications, to legitimate gambling. A quick look around the landscape of our world will show that there are Casinos in a large number of the sims, both in PG and M sims, in the City and on the islands. Don't read this as me sayin I hate casinos, but they are simply everywhere.

Now, at least in the United States, the lowest gambling age I've seen is 18, and in most places, it's 21. By permitting in minors, there will need to be some kind of safeguard to prevent minors from accessing these facilities and to protect the owners from potentially violating state laws.

Be it not allowing in minors or adding a new land access feature limiting access to non-minors (probably easily skirted around), something has to be done to address this issue prior to changing the policy.

True the fact that this could be the new internet. But it HAS to be monitored, some way, shape or form. Granted, the general internet isn't really monitored except by the government, which regulates it. Perhaps when that new legislation on virtual reality comes to mind, that will tell us what's allowed, and what isn't. Until then, it's just a huge world of chaos and anarchy, which of course I so whole heartedly keep close to me, cause I enjoy the freedom that it brings.

Kids, now on the other hand, cannot be alone. They need to be monitored, supervised, and guided. If not, the world would be in utter chaos.

If it all boils down to it, then this virtual experience NEEDS to be segregated. Kids, simply are not mature enough to interact with adults, no matter how intelligent they appear to be.

In that sense, the segregated grid of course, needs to be monitored. So I'm not sure how logical this'll be.

This isn't really an official response from Linden Lab. As I often say in my defense about matters that are not my primary expertise or responsibility: "I'm just a developer." However, I'm chiming in here because I think I can provide some insight to the thinking that goes on here at Linden Lab.

(1) I believe Philip has been excited about virtual reality since he was a kid. Philip wasn't much of a traditional video game player when he was younger, but SL, with its open possibilities and freedom to create, would have been his kind of "game". I think he would like to be able to bring SL to those kids out there that are like he was.

(2) We don't think using SL is a waste of time. We think that SL can directly teach or provide incentives for people to otherwise learn real world skills, such as creating digital media (textures, models, video, sound) , programming (scripting, networking, databases), and even business and marketing skills (organizing, management, branding). Therefore, it would be a Good Thing to open up this medium for kids.

(3) SL is fun. There are a lot of kids out there that would enjoy using SL.

(4) We think SL is going to eventually be BIG. HUGE! When it gets big there will be a demand for access for minors.

(5) Linden Lab does not currently have a definite plan for how to open SL up to kids. It is more of a "Gee wouldn't it be cool, we think we'd like to make it work" state of affairs. (This is where your feedback comes into play. The "We want an adult-only playground" message is loud and clear.)

(6) The current feature set of SL almost supports a separate grid just for kids, but not quite. It is possible to make a multi-sim estate and to have a set of residents who could only visit that estate and no other part of the world. What is missing is the account creation/validation/managment of such a population. One scenario of a separate grid might be: suppose a high school class wanted to have access to their own small virtual world that had the feature set of SL. Other than the creation of credit-cardless accounts that is already possible. Suppose 10 different high schools wanted to have their own private estates... it might be possible to also open up a larger 11th estate where residents from the various high schools could tread common ground.