No kids in the real SL, EVER!

/hijack

That reminds me of a joke....

There is this scotsman sitting in the pub drinking a few pints and he is feeling pretty bad about life. Just then an American tourist walks in and of course sad or not, any scottsman worth his salt will chat up a tourist, usually for a free drink or two. After a while of chatting the tourist asks what the scottsman's name is. To which the reply Angus came....

Angus what? inquired the tourist who had a genuine interest in his own scottish anscestory...

Lad, look out that window, see that stone wall I built it with me bare hands, ya think they call me Angus the stone worker? nae....

Look down farther see that covered bridge, I built that with me bare hands, do they call me angus the bridge builder? nae....

See that well down a pass from the bridge I dug that well with me bare hands do they call me Angus the Well digger? nae....

Lad, never ya get caught shaggin one sheep....

So you see, I make one post off topic and you all jump on me for that, please, read the rest of my content, Im not a sheep shagger

so what is the arguement here?

1> children will ruin the sl community

2> the sl community will ruin children

your are one of the few who actually are explaining thier position and i'm not even sure i know where you stand. forget the OMGWTFNOKIDS!!!1 people

Hiro I have read every god damn word dude and I still say:

NO KIDS!! NO FUCKING WAY!!



Lindens please acknowledge our collective voice!

Ferran and Surreal, Papi is happy to hear your voice in the forums. Right on!

One love!

NO KIDS!! NO WAY IN HELL!!

1. SL is excellent as an adult only world. I joined and have helped build a world where I could engage in behavior that is inappropriate in front of kids.

2. Enforce the TOS. Keep liability where it belongs, on parents who do not montor their childrens access.

3. Allowing kids into SL will open a can of legal worms which IMO will lead to Linden Labs eventually getting their asses sued off.


Surreal

ALright, seriously.

*steps up on soapbox*

Let me tell you a little story.

Way back when, I think it was around version 1.1, linden lab decided to remove the credit card age verification check to new residents. Almost overnight, the world exploded. Lag bombs, firebombs, harrassment, events ground to a halt... it was anarchy for about 2 weeks until Linden Lab closed the door again.

The SL community was about 10% of the size it is now. Imagine the chaos that would arise from 2000 minors slamming into the grid in one push.

Now, some folks are saying "well, put it into a separate grid! BEst of both worlds! Everyone will be happy!"

Except the FBI, because it'll be yet another place they have to monitor for possible sex offenders.

Oh, and Linden Lab, because they'll need 3 times the amount of Liasons just for the Kid Grid to resolve petty disputes... "he took my toy! No I didn't, you did!" "waaaaah" and so on and so forth.

And what exactly would be the monetary point? A couple thousand ten dollar accounts, piquing the curiosity of the rugrats into trying out the "real" SL, and then we have tons more minors sneaking in under the radar, using their parent's credit cards for the shenanigans at Club Dwell.

The minor grid would be a huge hassle, and eventually a financial failure, as well as a quagmire for personell. Plus the legal issues if some pedophile DOES get onto the minor grid... hoo boy.

So let's officially keep the kids out, okay? It was tried once before, it didn't work, and it won't work.

LF

They're really, truly, seriously thinking of allowing minors onto here?

Whew. Now I don't feel so bad about never getting a lifetime account.

It's very good to have the wisdom and historical perspective you bring to this Lordfly, thanks! I'd also like to echo the comments made a page or two back about how nice it is that people can talk about this like, well ADULTS.
Some of the comments by people like Darko made me want to clarify, I'm not for an SL jr. grid as a good idea. I just think it's the only"not terrible" idea if LL is determined to tap into the kid market or have an educational/toy version of SL for minors.
The best solution is for Second Life to stay what it is and focus on what it's doing so well.
With the exception of a few people, who make eloquent cases I just disagree with, most of us do not want to play with kids. We don't want to babysit, or be lagbombed daily, or get IM-ed stupid AOL speak, or try to enforce contracts with minors or try to get minors to respect intellectual property rights, or provide support for items sold to minors.
One thing I've always been so impressed by with the Lindens is they do want our feedback and they do take it into consideration. Telling them what we think is the best way to make Second Life a better place.

I think the idea going on here, people aren't jumping on the bandwagon and just saying no, theres definately GOOD SOLID reasons for kids not being here, even in PG sims. So, with an argument here, why is it that adults can't have their own world to do what they want in? I mean seriously... must KIDS ALWAYS intervene? They have their own places they can do to, if they want something like this go to There, not HERE.

Being a mother I will have say NO!! It will become a pedophile's playground.

NO KIDS IN SL PLEASE!!

Let me see if I have this right.

If one is succinct in ther opinion they aren't explaining enough about why they feel the way they do or are not reading the whole thread...

On November 2nd do I have to explain why I voted for whom I voted for? No. Yet my vote counts. Does that render me as uninformed?

If one is verbose or semi-verbose with regards to their opinion on this matter, they are over reacting?

You can't have it both ways. A person is either for or against an idea. Discrediting their opinions by questioning the length of their post or by assuming they didn't, can't or don't want to read the thread is sophomoric. Even most high school debaters don't succumb to this type of reasoning.

I don't even want to get started on the reasoning behind *they may add great content* or *you are just afraid their content will make your content look bad*. That is ridiculous.

There are kids who attend and subsequently graduate college before they are adults, should they be afforded all the other things that go along with adulthood simply because they are bright and can add value to society prior to becoming of age?

Now back to the subject at hand.

Kids are gonna get in trouble on the net, so we may as well just open everything thing up to them? Let's just tell all the adult content sites that DO employ age verification services that they should accept minors cause they are seeing porn elsewhere on the net posted by less responsible people. If you can't beat 'em join 'em! That will fix it!

If a kid gets his or her hands on a porn DVD of Mom and Dad's we may just as well start selling them porno mags at gas stations, X rated dvds to them at Blockbuster and open up all the XXX theaters to them?

If a kid gets his hands on Dad's bottle of vodka we should then just open all the liquor stores to minors?

Some kids skip school all the time or stay out past curfew. Let's just do away with truancy and curfew ordinances.

Hell, while we are excercising flawed logic- lets just open all the bank vaults; after all there are those who would rob them anyway right?

I am only for the minors in SL idea if it's a seperate game. Completely disconnected from the main SL.

A seperate kid grid does not address the problems that will arise. Especially if they are able to converse via IM with folks on the main grid and/or travel is allowed from the main grid to the kid grid.

Remember folks, all it will take will be ONE pedophile to bring this whole world we love to it's knees. The societal reaction will be swift and broad sweeping. If SL could even survive such a lawsuit brought forth by one kid's parents, it would still be stained, probably for a long time if not for the rest of SL's duration.

NO, NO, NO

Huge legal and criminal liability for Lindens and Americans.

I spent months fighting 'child' pornographers who hijacked my email address to send out spam advertising their sites.

I was able to work with US based ISPs to shut them down, but in Europe, I found out, the legal age of consent can be as low as 14, so to them, what is considered child porn in the USA, did not present a problem.

So if you find yourself chatting with a 14 year old pretending to be older, in the USA you will be labeled a pedophile and even if you don't end up in jail, your life is ruined. I don't think anyone wants to take such risk.

Now, this is not to criticize Europe's views on sex or American puritanism. It is just the plain and dangerous facts.

Even a 'children-only' version of SL, separate from this one would be, in my opinion, risky business. All it takes is one sicko to destroy the reputation of LL.

Sad but true.

-tito

I LOVE children, have 2 of my own in fact. But SL is my "escape" I am sorry but I am OPPOSED to having children in SL.

Sorry, I also wanted to add. being in SL for a year now & seeing all that goes on in SL I think is inapproriate for children under the age of 18.
Even if there's a section that's designated for this crowd I agree with other's that this puts the kids at risk by predators.
the *only* way I could fathom allowing my children to play in SL (or ANY online realm for that matter) is if I was sitting beside them the WHOLE time they were online. Then again I feel that way about the online experience as a whole. Anyway, I guess the point is I KNOW what goes on here & I do NOT want my own chilren subject to it & I would hope unless under a VERY watchful eye of the parents, other parents would feel the same way.

Beautiful Tito. I almost made that my signature.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keep the replies coming. It is most important that this thread gets Linden acknowledgement. We must keep it at the top until our collective voice is heard.

LINDENS PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE OUR COLLECTIVE VOICE. NO KIDS! NO WAY DUDE!

It will be a massive mistake if immature punks are allowed to come to Second Life. IF you need examples, go to Ultima On-Line, and Worlds Away.

The problem with LL's proposal Eggy is not the kids - it's their adult parents. When they sue LL because their kid got over into the adult sim and was assalted by an automated dildo.

When that happens, all adult content will GO. We have a nice mix now. A lot of G stuff in M sims, it's an adult world. If children are let in, it becomes separate - all the clubs & sex vendors will pile into a couple of sims dedicated to sex exclusively and the rest of us will put up with having to live within the rules of a G Sim.

Or worse yet - a criminal gets into the kids sim.

It's just a bad, bad, bad idea. One I hate worse than the idea of self government. LL if you want to sell to kids, CREATE A NEW GAME FOR THEM. DO NOT ALLOW CROSS OVER BETWEEN THE TWO WORLDS. NO CROSS OVER/NO KIDS IN SL.

If ever there was a reason for government regulation to step into something like Second Life, bringing children in will be IT. That will do it faster than even the sniff of profit.

Rose

I totaley agree with you!

Thanks Roseann.

I should also add that by adding a kid grid that has any connection to the main grid, be it via IM or 18+ people being able to TP to the kid grid is like intentionally placing one's self in the path of a charging rhino.

That would simply take away the main defense LL and we as residents have. Right now, if a child misrepresents themself to an adult and engages in cyber chat or the like, AND the child's parents become aware, the onus is on the parent. They didn't make sure that their kid wasn't in a place they don't belong on the net. Nor did they do the research before they handed the kid the credit card. Take away the 18+ limit and we are all made much more vulnerable to lawsuits.

I have been reading each post in this thread. I gave my two cents. I didn't reply anymore to the debate, because I'd only be redundant.

As for the town hall meeting, I wasn't there. I did read the transcripts that Haney posted. And I don't think SL is ready to take over the Internet. It's a healthy ambition, but realistically, I don't see this happening in a 6 month's time.

So introducing a seperate grid or restricting minors on specific grids in SL, to prepare for this "overtaking of the Internet" is too much of a risk to me.

We still are battling bugs and insufficient features here. Lag is still prevalent. Teleporting issues. These haven't been addressed to the majority's satisfaction. And on top of this, LL wants to welcome a whole new demographic to this grid?

Second Life is the one place where the default rating of content is mature. Introduce minors and the censorship monster comes in. We'd all be expected to default to PG or G-rated behaviour/content.

I'm not saying Mature is all about perversions. It's like we'd be revoking our rights to be adults. If SL wants to be that welcoming environment for all ages, the community that's already HERE will be stifled.

I think what LL should be focusing on is making the present grid near flawless. Absolute perfection may not happen. But, say in diamond grading, it's VVS (Very, very slightly) prone to mishaps.

I'll summarize my own post, just because I'm awake:

1. I don't think introducing minors in SL before it takes over the Internet will be productive, because SL isn't at this level yet. We'll be suffering months, years having an intergrated grid and dealing with new problems that are mostly in Legalese. It may never come to fruition.

2. Even if it's on a seperate grid with strict supervision, there's no way LL can advertise a child-friendly medium while in the same breath it harbors a grid full of mature diversity. One will make a compromise, and that would be us.

3. They need to focus on making what they already have the best it can be.

4. When this grid can basically manage itself, then venture into other projects, but I reiterate number 2.

And last ... 5. I still can't control my car here. I'd work on that first before fantasizing about world domination.

(edited because I can't count)

to prevent anyone else from IM'ing me with a barrage of nonsense based on a misreading of my posts (i apologize for the lack of clarity), i will reiterate to end the usual cycle of "the people" versus jauani wu. this way "the people"can hate for the right reasons, not the wrong ones.

i am not arguing that children are or are not bad for the community in my last posts. (yes i think it is refreshing to be able to play a game without children and for that reason i would want a carefully guarded adult only zone to preserve the current playing atmosphere). so i am not arguing that there should not be a a game for adults only.

i am deconstructing the arguement that sl is bad for kids. let parents have a look at sl and decide for themselves what is bad for thier own kids. it might be bad for one teenager, it might not for another. if one is arguing SL is in nature bad for kids, than so is every other aspect of the internet that allows children to break the boundaries of space that thier parents can safeguard. if one subscribes to this arguement/belief, that the world is full of crazy people out to hurt the children, one must then, even if passively, be arguing that kids should not be allowed on the internet regardless of parents wishes.

some of the interpretations above of my arguement are completely flawed. i am not saying let all kids in because some are already here. i'm contesting the arguement that SL is bad for kids because i find it ridiculous in todays world where kids can download graphic necropheliac bestiality porn and watch soft porn on cable. i find some of allegories above to be very poor. they are not congruent with at all with what i'm saying. in the case of sex, alcohol, or driving, or cigarettes, they are all at parents discretion. similarly, it is a parents credit card that opens the door to SL. the bank one is plainly ridiculous.

i haven't played much of other online games, but from what i can see, they seem to be doing quite well even though by these arguements they must be hotbeds of pedophiles and out of business. i also find MSN, Yahoo, AOL all in business even though i've seen those services repeatedly on the news shows as places for sexual predators. i guess i just have faith in the SL community that it is not a higher than average concentration of perverse and demented people that RL or other online communities.

yes, i think that in regards to the legal issues and danger to children, people are being a little paranoid, understandably so. i have many vulnerable loved ones of whom i'm often guilty of over protecting. that doesn't mean when reason returns, my fiance should never leave the house.

for those of you who carefully scans all my posts for offense or psychoanalysis, at least be more competent. in this case notice that the "offending" posts were clearly directed towards an individual and not your selfcentred self. i hope you got the cut and paste material you were looking for

lol

(OK, this got longer than I had planned. Read if you wish, or don't - but it's important.)

Firstly, let me say that the thought of minors being in SL just makes my skin crawl. I have children of my own (boys 11 and 14) and I consider my children to be two of the best-behaved and responsible children I've ever seen. (Bah, ok, so I'm biased. Sue me.) As a responsible parent, I would *not* allow my kids anywhere near Second Life as it exists today. The thought of worrying about whether or not the avatar I'm chatting with is being run by a minor... scares the crap out of me. I *love* the fact that I just don't have to think about it.

Now let's look at reality. I believe 100% that Second Life, or something very much like it, will have an effect on the world similar to the effect that the Internet itself has had. In the late 1980's and early 1990's, I would rant about this thing called "The Internet" to anyone who would listen, and I was scoffed and ignored. Fine, I don't care. There are other technological breakthroughs that I've evangelized since then that have also changed the world, and are still in their infancy, not yet having had the impact on every day life that they will. (Same general reaction - eyes rolled, people scoffed. *shrug*)

Ever since 1998 or so, I've been building, conceptually, a realtime virtual world much like what Second Life is now. I've been keeping it relatively quiet, because I thought I was "onto something". In my virtual world, there *are* sections for minors. There are entire "themed" areas for different age groups. This is because the reality is that Second Life isn't a game. It isn't a giant chat room, really (although that's what it's acting as currently). It is the "Next Big Thing" - and mark my words, in 5 years, there will be as many people populating Second Life (or something like it - there is room for competition) as there are currently using the Worldwide Web.

This is REALITY. It sucks, because SL in its current incarnation - FREE OF CHILDREN - is wonderful. However, in the broader scope of things, the introduction of minors into this world is inevitable.

Fact. Reality. Inevitability. We can hate it as much as we want to, we can all cancel our SL accounts, but that would just mean that those of us who do, will miss out on the "quiet days" before minors become part of the world.

Once we accept the hard cold reality of the future, we can put our heads together on how best to deal with it. In a perfect world, the minors are protected, and the adults can still be adults.

How is it done on the WWW now? For the most part, it is up to each minor's parents to monitor and police them - as it should be. However, lots of parents are abysmally lax in their duties as parents.

Age verification systems exist. Means of separating content, keeping the kids out of the adult stuff and the adult stuff away from the kids, *does* exist.

In the system I've been designing, a minor is flagged as such by the system infrastructure, and each asset within the system checks the "minor" flag. If it exists, and the asset is flagged as "not ok for minors", it is filtered. It is left up to the creator of an asset whether or not to flag their asset "safe", but through peer-review mechanisms, the inappropriately-marked assets are (in theory) quickly fixed or eliminated.

We then bump into what is an ongoing problem with the Internet as a whole - unscrupulous adults who just don't care, or worse, are actual sicko predators. My 11 year old son has received "Hot horny teens want to spend the night with you" spam email. This is sick and WRONG, but it is reality, and we as responsible adults have to figure out the best way to deal with it.

Do we revolt, vote with our wallets, and cancel our Second Life accounts in protest? OK, that's your choice. However, it's not going to change the inevitable. Minors *will*, at some point, become part of this world, regardless of whether it's Linden Labs or somebody else at the very "top" of it all.

Instead of sticking our heads in the sand and hoping it never happens, let's accept the reality of it and start figuring out exactly *how* to protect our children, while still allowing adults to enjoy adult things.

You are mistaken. I can only speak for the U.S. because although I have lived in both Europe and currently Central America, I am most familiar with U.S. laws.

In the U.S., depending on what state you live in, you can have your children removed from your custody and even in some cases be charged with child abuse for the things you listed - and some of those things are only permissible in private.

To elaborate.

The states decide if your kid gets to drive a car. There is a shade of grey in some states on if you can let them drive on your own property, but god help you if they are injured doing it.

If you allow your underage child to have sex with an adult, you are in deep shit in every state. You can get in trouble if you allow them to have sex with a minor - contributing to the deliquincy of a minor is the mildest charge.

Alcohol, yes they can have a drink at home. It used to be a restaurant would serve a child a drink with their parents, but I believe that is no longer the case anywhere in the States.

Smokes... major crackdown on this lately. You run a good chance of being a nice legal test case.

I have enjoyed the reasoned and well thought out lines of discussion presented in the majority of these posts. I'm going to sit back and watch the fun now, since I don't enjoy debating for the hell of it.

Surreal

so it's illegal for kids to smoke at home now? i wasn't aware of that. it makes sense though because there is a strong scientific case of harm to the child.

I think Tito brough up the biggest point out of this whole situation... but remember.. there are other multiplayer clients out there for like... AKA toon town...

Thoguh i personally would not want young kids playing this game either, bc it was mainly made for adults only.. and i wish that it would stay that way.

This is a very big descision that LL will have to decide... but i think they should poll us first about this descision.

Like i sed, kids have Toon Town... we cant play Toon Town bc its for kids... like Second Life... kids cant play Second Life bc its for Adults... but who am i to say whats for what... its Linden Labs descision..

-David

(PS - Dont get mad about anything i have written ... its my opinion)