No kids in the real SL, EVER!

Im split, Yes because LL would make a shitload, but no because of what happened to me today.

My friends (who shall remain nameless.....nick fairlight and cornelius bach) were just hanging around my newly opened shop, when an obvious minor comes.....wearing a giant phallic(penis) object. He then launches the aforementioed friends around. Then pulls out a bot to launch them whenever they come near MY land.

After doing a quick investigation, he was suspended from my land, but it sucked playing father to someone I dont even know, and SHOULD be an adult.

But if minors are allowed into SL, there will be an influx of cash into SL, and perhaps an influx of talent.

Overall, I have to vote yes, but with a stricter policy agianst minors. Or perhaps a seperate grid.

Ive had people talk to me that wer obvously under 18. Im talking to a friend of mine (who i wont name) and she and i were talking on my land, and this short little avatar is talking like a 13 year old talking like this.

(this is basically the chat... but how much of it i remember)

KID: Hey sexy
FRIEND: Umm... hey
KID: Wanna come to my place later and get sweet lovin by me?
FRIEND: No thats ok... I got david
ME: Haha thanx
KID: You know u want my hot steamy body. I am your hunk of man.
ME: Can you please stop talking like that here.

(Me and my friend are talking about this in IM about how obvious its a kid)

See... those little incidences will be a lot more common if kids are let into the game...

I still say Toon Town is where they should go... lol

They aren't allowed to access the content you are pointing out while on the net at school. That is because it is generally believed that such content is not acceptable for kids AND probably even more so because of liability issues, which is at the heart of my argument.

It is the parent's responsibility to filter it at home. I have several friends with teenaged kids who aren't even allowed on the net or are only allowed on the net when a parent is overseeing. It's called hands on, responsible parenting. You are assuming that all kids have the access you describe, and that simply by virtue of the fact some do, that we should relax regulation for less offensive material which is still, never the less (like some of SL's content), inappropriate for kids.



First of all the allegories I drew were not directed soley at you. It's definately enlightening however, that you assume that they are. Perhaps if you yourself read a bit more carefully you would've already known this.

The part about sex, cigs, and driving is flat wrong. Minors, by law are not allowed to purchase cigs, alcohol, or the like. They are also not allowed to drive under a certain age. Try telling the judge you thought *Johnny was responsible enough to drive at 13* after he got in trouble for it. These activities are not allowable at *the parent's discretion*. They are all highly regulated, at least they are where I live, which happens to be the country in which this game is hosted and therefore this game is subject to those same laws.

Furthermore, pointing out that there are worse things on the net than SL that kids get into is like saying that kids should be able to smoke cigarettes - but only lights, or that they can only have limited sex, the details of which would be decided on a case by case basis. That is so open to interpretation, so subjective and riddled with parental bias that it is simply impossible and that is one reason why we have age limits for certain activities in most countries.



Those games allowed minors from the onset. Those companies can also survive lawsuits as they are HUGE conglomerates. SL relies on VC and has a small staff. It's quite possible that the VC would immediately be pulled and that LL would be sued the first time a pedo was exposed, i.e. no more SL, or a severely nerfed version would ensue.

It should also be pointed out that those games do not allow player created content. No goatse, no giant following dildos, no genitalia attachments...etc, etc.



First of all I am assuming your fiance is an adult. She, not you or her parents, are responsible for her actions. So your allegory is at least equally dismissable as those you are bemoaning.



Oh, well take your coversation to IM then Mr. Wu if you don't like hearing oppostion. I happen to agree with the people you were speaking to, and it is 100% within my rights to respond to your points in a public forum. They are a de facto response to me as well, by virtue of the fact I share the views expressed by said residents.

As far as cutting and pasting goes, you need to let go, the last time I quoted you was WEEKS ago. Get over it. Also, if you don't like being quoted then; a) I would suggest not speaking in public, and; b) if you insist on doing so and can't handle the heat your labels generate simply stop. Don't say things that marginalize and/or generalize about entire groups of people and for Pete's sake stop backpeddling by claiming you were joking.

I don't even have a fan club to give me the false impression that everything I say holds value and is correct based upon the fact that myself or my fan club thinks it is, and/or thinks it's humorously clever, so let me leave you with this poignant ending: You are still wrong. I am right. The answer is still no, I do not want you in that fashion Mr. Wu. Sound familiar?

Edited for spelling.

To : Everyone who says no to kids,

Most likely you have talked to them in world already (though you may not have know it at the time)... anyone who read the forums on a regular basis has seen them post too. They are here there is no way anyone can deny that. I personally have met more than a dozen minors varying in age (some as young as twelve & some who have been playing since beta).

This isn't going to happen anytime soon either... but I really believe that as we grow larger a seperate grid dedicated to minors will be an option we will have to face at some point in order to effectively rid the main grid of minors & gear new users under the age of 18 towards playing on the appropriate grid.

The "kiddie grid" will be alot of work to set up...
I've proposed a few suggestions & extracted some thoughts from this thread so far... I'll try to sum up these (I'm sure to most) "crazy" ideas...

- "Baby sitters" LL will interview & hire (for decent L$) select individuals to monitor the on goings of the grid. These people will have the capability to delete inappropriate content on sight, even temporarily ban users who aren't playing according to the tos. These people will also approve all uploads... there will have to be a daily limit on uploads per avatar so this doesn't become too much of a burden.

- No IM chat. This will hopefully eliminate any sick f*cks from trying anything funny & will also keep things in general on the up & up.

- Set under garments & revamping of the appearance sliders.

- Main grid users should have a seperate basic inventory when they log into the kiddie grid. This will prevent any adult content from corrupting the kiddie grid. But potencially there could also be an option for main grid sellers to get "approved" content to sell on the kiddie grid & vice versa (if that could be done).

- I'm not all that knowledgeable when it comes to scripting... but I realize there will need to be major modifications to "kiddify" it & to ensure there is no way for them to hack into the main grid.

- Land is a grey area (kids do own land now believe it or not...) I think it would be wrong... not to mention stupid financially for LL to deny them ability to own land on the kiddie grid. Since they would be starting fresh... LL could offer a limited amount of land they could obtain & I don't think they should give them an option to sell land (just to make things easier). Also, no main grid user could hold land on the kiddie grid.

- Seperate forms for kiddie grid users too.

What people keep failing to realize is, in the long run this would not only reduce the amount of minors... but also help set up processes to keep them off of the main grid. Which is what everyone wants anyways right?

Or it may make them even more determined to gain access to the main grid; *throw off the shackles* so to speak. Especially if they already have underaged friends who have been and still are playing on the main grid prior to the inception of the *kid grid*. In other words, they may view the kid grid as an inroad or stepping stone to the main grid.

The only safe way to do it is to create a second SL, hopefully with a different name, completely cut off from the main grid, based on the software of the current SL.

My truthful opinion is that instituting any officially sanctioned support for kids is dangerous in a legal sense and is really putting the cart before the horse.

Edited to add: who will develop the nerfed LSL and the other dynamics of a *kid grid*? The same folks who developed the main grid I assume. I for one do not want them splitting their time between two grids when the first one still has technical issues.

Well something we can all agree on is... the current methods of setting up an account leave the door wide open to minors who want to become new users & have access to mommy or daddys CC. Thats why they inserted that new blip in the tos saying they aren't responsible for anything underage users see in SL. I can only imagine that if they started a kiddie grid these processes would be greatly improved.

You can say it will entice minors to want to seek access to the main grid... but that CC will already be branded as a potencial minor. If they have underage friends on the main grid & they can't get there... they could easily report them for it too. I have a feeling if they atleast had a place where they could be amongst people of thier own age though, they would be happier being there.

Most likely it would operate as a different game & have a different name with seperate forums & issues.

Legal ramifications are definately a concern.. which is why I suggested some of the things I did in my previous post to help eliminate undesireable behaviors.

This is not something that will happen tomorrow, next month, or even half a year from now. I have no doubt LL will strive to fix all of our current & any new issues that may occur before they will put the time & effort into seriously looking at a project of this magnitude.

I agree with virtually all of your points but am a little worried about this last paragraph. The fact that it won't happen tomorrow does not guarantee they won't start developing it in the near future.

It already is. Hence, "as".

1. I think everyone clearly agrees that the main grid should be left adult.

2. The idea that kids will want to get into the adult grid "more" because of having a minor grid is irrelevent. Once SL is huge, they will want to regardless.

3. I think everyone agrees that already there are kids in SL, and maybe there is room for more security.

4. It's clear that if a seperate grid were made, it'd have special restrictions, but it would not need to be made until SL is much larger.

5. Perhaps kids could be allowed into a seperate grid in a client that has all avatars disabled (except themself). No interaction between avatars, no predators, no squabbles.

Bump.

Lindens please respond to this thread.

Collectively we have said No Kids! No Way!

I would rather not have kids in SL. I know there are some now, but they have gotten in sneakily and the rules state SL is for 18+.
If it became permissible for children to be in SL the I would quit. Part of the reason I like SL is because it is 18+.

”But we would somehow like to let kids use SL in some way... feedback welcome.”
*sings* What ever Philip wants Philip gets…

Not everyone is actually opposed to the idea. I tend to take a more realistic approach to looking it. Granted it shouldn’t have come to this anyways but there are minors in world & the only way to effectively keep them out is by adding a separate kiddie grid. If they could successfully decrease / have better controls on the amount of minors we have on the main grid now, offer a new alternative & generate more revenue. That doesn’t sound like such a bad deal to me.

The trick is to do it & not piss off the main user base. LL needs to provide a more stable bug free SL first, then show users the ways they will benefit by LL spending their time & resources working on developing a separate grid with completely different features. For those who keep missing the point Kiddie grid = less minors on the main grid.

Frankly, nothing would make me cancel my account faster than "kiddie sims" in the current configuration of Second Life.

It's sort of resembles what happened to Renaissance Faire - years ago, it was an adult event, so no one complained when people wore revealing outfits or did provocative things. People brought their children to this event at their own risk. In other words when you saw a heavy chested woman with most of it hanging out of her dress and a piece of fruit stuck between her boobs and heard folks walk and say "nice pair", no one got offended.

Not so anymore - a couple of years ago, she was asked to remove the "pair", raise the blouse on the dress or leave. After all, now it's a "family affair".

Note that now, I no longer attend RL Renaissance Faire. It is now, for the most part, just a boring, commercialized event for bermuda short wearing yuppies walking around staring at the costume wearing "freaks". The entire event was ruined "For the Children".

The same thing is happening with the RL Burning Man - which WAS an ADULT event. Pretty soon, the only adult events left will be strip clubs, that is, IF your city zoning hasn't outlawed them.

There should be places for adults and places for kids/families. Don't dilute adult content "for the children". Leave SL as it is and do something different "for the children".

The child market could be more important to SL than the adults that already play this game and do so loyally. But from what I can see, I don't think the amount of money made from children will be worth it... For instance, there are children already in SL - but do they pay $200 + a month or buy $1000 islands? No? Maybe? This is just a consideration in case the only or major grounding for children to be let in is to make money off of them... Though I'm not saying it is.
Also, free reign being given to children would lead to a mass exodus of the adults.. (me included) As most of us came here to begin with because (legally) it's a mature world/game.

Another point I did not see: (and yes, I read/scanned through all the posts) There are children who are very talented who could contribute a lot to SL. But why not wait a few years? Why NOW? Why not wait until they have refined their skills? It can only improve from there.. After all, the majority of great artists/archetitects were remembered for their concepts and creations made during their adulthood - not childhood. Has anyone visited Neopets? Do you have any idea how much art theft goes on in there? I think the cases of clothing/building/etc theft would go extremely high.

I agree the majority of people for and against children in SL have made valid points, but it's really just a personal preference.

This is a game intended for adults right now, please keep it that way. My vote is for no children as well.

Keep those disqusting walking STD flesh-bags out of SL.

you should try that one again.

What most people are completely neglecting to acknowledge is the *reality* of this whole phenomenon, the PLATFORM that is currently Second Life.

Children *WILL* become a part of this. We need to stop trying to figure out how to prevent it from happening, because we cannot. This has nothing to do with Linden Labs, or any choice that they make. This has to do with society. If Linden Labs decides to pull the plug tomorrow, the vision will carry on. The evolution will continue, as sure as the sun is going to rise tomorrow.

Again: Second Life, or something like it (more likely a much *much* larger grid of which Linden Labs Second Life is only a small part) is the future of online entertainment. This will not change. Minors *will* have access to this future of entertainment, much in the same way they have access to the WWW right now. Strictly limited and filtered in secondary schools and public libraries, and filtered/regulated by parents at home, with legislation intended to protect the children from "inappropriate" content (assuming, of course, that the legislation/prohibition actually works, which is a different philosophical and political discussion altogether).

We will not stop minors from gaining access to this future of online entertainment (and dare I say, it will be FAR more than just entertainment, but that is the focus of context).

Instead of spewing venom at each other and threatening to cancel our Second Life accounts if minors are allowed in, let's be more realistic and constructive about it.

How do we limit the availability of mature content so that minors cannot easily gain access to it? I see the possibilities as a combination of legislation, technology, and most of all, education. Educate the parents, the people who are supposed to be instilling values in their children, the people who are supposed to be babysitting their own kids and deciding what's right and what's wrong for them.

It's going to happen. Inevitable, reality, fact, future. You can deny it all you want, or you can pull your heads out of the sand and accept it, and from there we can best determine how to deal with it in a way that works for everyone.

It's *crucially* important for people to try to think a little bigger, and realize that Second Life is not an MMORPG. It is the implementation of something that's been brewing for a long time - an immersive, user-created online experience. Take the WWW and make it 3-dimensional and interactive, and add a lot more to it, and you're getting close.

I'm a stark-raving lunatic. I was a stark-raving lunatic when I was so passionate and crazy pushing this whole newfangled computer thing in the 1980's. I was a stark-raving lunatic when I was foaming at the mouth about this Internet thing in the late 80's and early 90's. I was even more of a madman when I went off constantly about the Worldwide Web from 1993 until I started seeing web URL's on TV and it just happened virtually overnight in 1996. I've been a stark-raving lunatic evangelizing Linux since 1993. I'm a madman, evangelizing and telling anyone who will listen about the next big thing in technology.

I don't post much, but I have got to say something on this thread.

I completely oppose allowing children into SL. I think it is pretty obvious why we shouldn't. Look at other things that children have infiltrated.

SL would become a place full of spam and immature kids whining.

I actually put a lot of faith in the fact that I don't believe many of them would find it entertaining. They wouldn't be able to interact witht he adults on a peer to peer level. If they can carry on a conversation and you don't realize your talking to a 12 year old, then more power to em. but I don't think they will be able to fully integrate into our adult society and consequently find SL boring.

If LL must include them, please set up everything within your power to keep them seperate from the Mature sims. As we shouldn't have to worry about what we do on M sims because kids might be around.

Keep SL 18+ or if you must have kids, keep em away from what we have. IF you think the Paris Parks incident was bad...these kids don't value their parents credit card...so they will screw around without thinking about it.

Just my 2 cents. I hope I made sense.

Secks Saito

Cast my vote in the "ABSOLUTELY NOT" category.









I actually like kids ... 2 1/2 hours in the oven @ 325 F

I can't imagine they'd ever cater to kids any way other than with a completely seperate grid. Only allowing people 18 and over is what keeps us from having to have our content approved by the powers that be the way it has to be in There. It's one of the cornerstones of the creative freedoms we enjoy here. I can't imagine them doing anything that would require changing that. They'd be shooting themselves in the foot.

...I think they would shoot themselves in the head...imagine all the manpower needed...and the poor guys that loose their minds looking at all the stuff created...

Bay Area looney bins would be running over


Give em grid of their own.....way way away from us.....give em teddys and stuff and us a peeping tom place so we can get a good laugh every now and again

I'm posting here to help keep this bumped up - cuz for the most part folks have been pretty clear and articulate with their reasons for not allowing minors in SL.

Add me to the tally: NO MINORS!

I agree that "someday" IF SL gets as huge as Philip would like it to be, we will hafta deal with the all-ages aspect. But that isn't going to happen in 6 months or even a year.

It seems to me that there is a lot more work to be done on SL as it exists right now, from the plethora of bugs to enforcing the 18+ only rule.

Yes minors are here. That doesn't make it ok.

I had finally, after years of being on the internet from chat rooms, thru MUDS, to gaming, to 3D chats - gotten fed up with having to deal with non-adults. So I did a little searching and I found SL.

I was THRILLED! Finally a place that doesn't cater to teens and tweens! I got tired of being treated like some sort of pervert simply because I wanted to express myself like an adult in *Gasp!* adult terms. This does not automatically default to sexual things.

Some of us have children and need a place where we can just take a break. Some of us don't have kids, and are simply not interested in interacting with them during recreation time. I love being in a place where the default is adult not disney.

My motto is this: "13 year olds and 30 year olds don't mix". They just don't. 2-3 years from now when SL has taken over the metaverse whatever and they wanna open the flood gates to who-all. Fine. Hopefully by then I'll have found another place to chill out at online that is for grown up human beings, cuz I'll most likely be outtie.

Extra blah blah:
I used to play this MUD back in the day that was created and run by this corporation. They also developed 4 or 5 other games with completely different styles, themes etc. They were all entirely separate from each other and nothing to do with each other, other than some papers filed somewhere stating they were "owned and operated" by on parent company.

So no need to get undies in bunches about worries of grid interactions. If LL wants the headaches of running teenland - they can go for it, and we wouldn't even be aware of it. IF they want to go that route, I'd suggest it having nothing whatsoever to do with SL in terms of name, marketing etc etc.

I'm tired and rambling but that's just my two cents, and yeah I know its all been said before, but this is just a big ole BUMP anyhow.

OH and to whoever posted about not having to worry about there being an underage person behind the avatar they are interacting with: YIKES!
I'd like to not hafta worry too, but I do - because I know the 18+ only rule is not enforced here to any degree that I've seen.
Including no big messages/warnings on the website, to no email address or whatever prominently posted for reporting suspected children at.
That's the one thing that takes a serious edge off my happiness at being in here...

Lets fix what we have goin on now, and then attend to new things when that's done. Philip asked for feedback, AND gave his email address out. I suggest writing to him the thoughts and feelings you've all posted here. I know I am going to.

I feel I need to clarify my position a bit, just so there are no misconceptions.

The single biggest thing I like about SL is the no-kids atmosphere. As many others have stated, there are enough "kids" with people who are legally adults, but mentally quite obviously not

I personally would not enjoy the experience of SL if it was rampant with kids.

It's a matter of *when*, not *if*, people of all ages - including minors - have access to a world that is very much like SL - either run by LL or not, nobody can say. *When* that time comes, we need to do whatever we possibly can to keep the kids out of the adult world, and keep the adult content out of the kids' space. Separation is clearly mandated.

Just so people don't think I'm advocating bringing kids into the current SL environment - no way. I don't think anybody could support that on any level.

I would just rather not take the stance of "not in MY SL, if they do it separately, that's their business". Keeping the adults separate from the minors is everyone's business - or it will be when it becomes a real and present issue. I would much rather have gotten a good way into resolving the issue on a social and technological level, than get to that point and have it all go to hell, and have the government step in and set limits. That won't do any good for anyone.


cheers,
Chris

right on chris!

Some great posts on the last page. I hope we can keep this discussion active so that Linden Lab has a clear picture of how the players feel and how we can deal with this as time goes on.



Chris stated this best. Before there were dot-coms, there was the Internet in the early 90s. Over a few months it went from tens of thousands of regular users to millions of users. Over a few years it went from a few million users to the whole industrialized world.

Considering how complex and integrated this issue is with the SL itself, this is going to probably take at least a year to fully plan out, implement, etc. Our discussing it now is I think very valuable, and Philip would not likely have mentioned it in the meeting if they already are starting to hash out ways that this could be done.