The Bible gave us books.

I stand corrected. I completely forgot the Great Decider, the Appointed One.

There seems to be a lot of disdain for Islam on these forums. But then there's not really that much difference between the two.

Excellent point , of course -

It applies today -

Just becuase they claim they must oppose gay marriage doesnt mean God ordered it or condoned it, nor does it mean every follower of the religeon condones it.

Just becuase they claim they must support Intelligent design doesnt mean God ordered it or condoned it, not does it mean every follower of the religeon condones it.

Just becuase they claim its their place to judge everyone and not let them think and make decisions for themselves on how to run their lives - it doesnt mean God ordered it or condoned it, not does it mean evervy follower of the religeon condones it.

-hey this is kind of fun.

Although your point is valid that it was Guttenburg's movable type system that turned out to be the system copied and used in Western Europe, the point was clouded becuase the original poster decided to pontificate by claiming that it was to "spread the word of god to the masses" this baseless claim of course met resistance.





In addition he claimed that the bible is responsible for giving us books and saving knowledge - however this is also not necessarily true, since it is very hard to acertain the motives of Guttenburg, who did not really profit from his invention.

Most likely he was hoping for financial reward since he did secure investment money to do it. Considering the Catholic Church was the richest single entity in Western Europe at the time selling bibles most certainly made sense.

As I attempted to point out the rising fortunes of Europe would have led to the development of a printing press reguardless.

Just like if Henry Ford hadnt developed his system to mass produce more cars and get them to market, someone else would have.

As far as the theology , please keep in mind the Original poster moved into this area in an attempt to defend his points.

I would disagree with your assertion "so that the illeterate masses would be educated" given the character of the late middle ages mindset, any education of the common people that resulted (long after Guttenburgs death) would have been an uninited by-product.

Who are "they"?

I dunno ask Kiamat





although - in my examples "they" would be those people who say those things listed in those examples. Since people Do say those things, those would be "they"

If you dont think there are people who say those things listed in my examples , id suggest you read more of those religeous websites i mentioned.

Is it judgemental to condemn them for doing things you deem wrong?

You said ...... 'Just because they claim they must oppose gay marriage, because they must support Intelligent design, and because its their place to judge everyone and not let them think and make decisions for themselves on how to run their lives.' ----Colette Meiji

I would argue many reasonable people disagree with one another on issues such as gay marriage or teaching Intelligent Design in public school. I'm sorry you disregard anyone with whom you disagree. Being right isn't always the most important thing.

As far as "judge everyone and not let them think and make decisions for themselves on how to run their lives"....

I would say your post was seeking to judge and make decisions for others.

Actually it was the opposite. It was saying not to condemn all christians just because of the views of a few of them.

1 Belief in an afterlife is a core component of every religion.

2 What evidence do you have that such belief is abhorrent to "patrons of modernity?" Do you drive a car? Have you ever voted? Had an x-ray? Ever fly in a plane? Wear synthetic fibers? OMFG! You're a patron of modernity!!!!

3 Since belief in an afterlife is a core component of every religion, you cannot assert that Christian faith has increased in Europe as a whole. You can only assert that belief in an afterlife has increased.

I had chosen stay out of Theology pretty much on this and stuck to historical relavance and inaccuracies but since you seem to want to forcce the issue. -


the "they" isnt necesarily the same people in those 3 examples.

since "they" is a realitvely neutral pronoun meaning more than one person.

reasonable or not has nothing to do with it i never claimed any of the three "they's" were necessarily unreasonable. All i said is it - "doesnt mean God ordered it or condoned it, nor does it mean every follower of the religeon condones it."

evidently you feel defensive becuase one or more of thoe "They's" apply to you.

Tough cookies. Unless you have like Gods cell phone number theres no way to know whether he approves of those three examples or not.

As far as those three examples -

I kind of have a feeling that the if a being creates the entire universe it isnt all that concerned about who licks which genders parts. Yes - reguardless of what personal bias those men who wrote down the bibles' text may have felt.

If parents wish for religeous based curriculum there are many excellent parochial schools availble. Public schools by definition are prevented from religeous instruction. This would be seperation of church and state a fundamental cornerstone of freedom from repression.

As far as whether God wants us to judge each other "judge not lest you be judged" , "he who is without sin cast the first stone"

I am Christain , i wish my faith was stronger, however i have no deluded belief as to the infalabilty of the bible as it has evolved over time.

Your source is faulty and therefore your facts are faulty.

And many of those languages that the Bible is supposedly written in are made up.

UPI is fundamentalist controled

Lmao...!!! I love it

I saw this bumper sticker on my way into work this morning.

I saw a brand new Mercedes the other day with vanity plates that read "Got God". Made me wonder if the driver had ever read Ecclesiastes. Vanity, vanity, all is vanity...

There's a word for this kind of debate tactic, Kiamat, but it's not very nice Let me assure you that nobody has less tolerance for Islamic nutbags (as opposed to the millions of rational Muslims) than I do. I think most of them are beyond help and killing them is actually the merciful thing to do. How's that for intolerance?

Seriously. The extremist theology of Wahhabism doesn't have much to offer over Bible-thumping absolutism. The difference is that Western Civilization has already survived having religion in power -- we called it "The Dark Ages". We can't let it regain power again, in any name.


Wow, when you drift afield you really drift I don't hate people who do good works. I just hate it when they hold it up as a reason they're supposed to be better people than me and try to convert me.


You forgot lining women up in soccer stadiums and shooting them because they violated Shir'ia by something as simple as talking to a strange man in public. I find very little to admire in that barbaric philosophy.


Obviously. Of course, it doesn't stop religious nuts -- Christian or Muslim alike - from saying it anyway.

1. Prove it.

2. I was quoting from an article posted by someone seeking to discredit my resource with this resource you posted in red. It was not my words. Follow the context, please.

3. Prove it.

1. Prove it.

2. I was quoting from an article posted by someone seeking to discredit my resource with this resource you posted in red. It was not my words. Follow the context, please.

3. Prove it.

uhhhhmmm yeah

I am going to be out of town for the weekend, can someone please be sure to pray for cowbell every ten pages of this thread until I get back? kthxbye

OK, I will.

Dang, I clearly missed out on an educational and civil-toned discussion. RATS!

Who cares? I really mean that.

You're talking about PRINTED books -- the "bible" was named after BYBLOS, a Phoenician city. The Phoenicians invented the alphabetic script on which the Greek and Hebrew alphabets were based. Books existed before the bible. Read more history.

If you read the thread you will see I am talking about the "printed" book.

"Bible

Bible, the English form of the Greek name _Biblia_, meaning "books," the name
which in the fifth century began to be given to the entire collection of sacred
books, the "Library of Divine Revelation." The name Bible was adopted by
Wickliffe, and came gradually into use in our English language....... "


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Bible