Is Religion allowed in School?
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 13:10
From: Desmond Shang Hmm.
Some might say the obvious cruelty was when small children had a part of their privates cut off.
I can't see how people object to cultures that do female circumcision, then turn around and do it to their own sons.
* * * * *
With regard to teaching precisely what religious texts say...
...how does one deal with obvious references to slavery, obedience of women, damning of gays and so forth? Or plain calls for the total elimination of this group or that, as is found in certain texts?
I'm not sure a teacher of comparative religions would 'make nice', as a member of any said religion might try to do.
Would not literature that plainly said 'kill such and such a group' be considered hate speech in many countries? How would such a thing be taught?
An open question. Circumcision isn't cutting off anyone's private parts, it's trimming the skin from around the head of the penis. Female circumcision is the removal of the clitoris, because some believe that is the thing that causes women to be unfaithful to their husbands. I see no reason children old enough to talk about sexual organs shouldn't discuss circumcision. Also, religions don't say "kill the Christians" or "kill the muslims". And when a text does suggest killing, it should be understood in context with the whole history of the religion. Of course, speaking to small children, we should limit our teachings to the basic tenents, and move into the heavier topics as the child has the ability to grasp it. |
|
Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
|
11-22-2005 13:24
From: Kevn Klein All religions that accept the Ten Commandments believe in the same ten.
I didn't say it's based on a number. I said we can only teach as much as we have time. In a perfect World every belief would be studied. My point with the size of a religion is we invest our time wisely, teaching the major religions because that covers most people in the World.
The children should also be taught there are many other religions that can't be presented and explain why. Then we could explain all religions, regardless of size deserve the same respect.
I think the cruelty is more likely aimed at those who are different, most American children are circumcisized. I remember in school the few boys who weren't circumcisized were ridiculed in the P.E. showers. I would hope teaching these differences early might limit or eliminate that issue as the children grow up. Umm, see you don't even realize there are so many different interpretations of the Ten Commandments, which seem simple: http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm1st Commandment Protestant 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me Catholic 1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Hebrew 1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 2nd Commandment Protestant 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Catholic 2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Hebrew 2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments Just those two commandments are interpreted so differently. Really, this is too personal a decision to have analyzed in a classroom by kids and a teacher. Would the teacher be a theologist? Which interpretation would be presented as correct? What about the religions that say women are second class citizens? It's not a clear cut teach the "correct version".
_____________________
The avatar formerly known as April Firefly
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 13:33
From: Sebastian Skye Umm, see you don't even realize there are so many different interpretations of the Ten Commandments, which seem simple: http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm1st Commandment Protestant 1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me Catholic 1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Hebrew 1. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 2nd Commandment Protestant 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Catholic 2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. Hebrew 2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments Just those two commandments are interpreted so differently. Really, this is too personal a decision to have analyzed in a classroom by kids and a teacher. Would the teacher be a theologist? Which interpretation would be presented as correct? What about the religions that say women are second class citizens? It's not a clear cut teach the "correct version". The Catholic church and the Protestant churches use the same Bibles, although there are several translations. But the Catholics accept a few extra books. They are all derived from the Hebrew texts. If we want to get down to the real Ten Commandments it would be the direct translation from Hebrew. |
|
Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
|
11-22-2005 13:35
From: Kevn Klein The Catholic church and the Protestant churches use the same Bibles, although there are several translations. But the Catholics accept a few extra books. They are all derived from the Hebrew texts. If we want to get down to the real Ten Commandments it would be the direct translation from Hebrew. But that's according to you. That's not the common agreement. There is no common agreement. Explain that to a child. It's not possible. But I guess you don't see it and I'm not going to convince you. Good luck.
_____________________
The avatar formerly known as April Firefly
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 13:38
From: Sebastian Skye But that's according to you. That's not the common agreement. There is no common agreement. Explain that to a child. It's not possible.
But I guess you don't see it and I'm not going to convince you. Good luck. We all can agree the Old Testament was translated from the original Hebrew texts. That's where the Old Testament came from. |
|
Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
|
11-22-2005 14:08
From: Kevn Klein We all can agree the Old Testament was translated from the original Hebrew texts. That's where the Old Testament came from. If that's so, why does the Catholic version differ? Obviously we all can't agree, and that's the inherent problem.
_____________________
The avatar formerly known as April Firefly
|
|
Kurgan Asturias
Apologist
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 347
|
11-22-2005 14:32
From: Kendra Bancroft Obviously you never met my ex. There you go again, making me laugh. This time I was 'trying' to take a drink of Coke...  |
|
Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
|
11-22-2005 14:37
We are up to 29 pages and I think the following summary is pretty safe:
Besides Kevn the opinions seem to be:
1) no religion in science class
2) no religion in grade school
3) religion in an optional high school comparative religion class with a carefully crafted syllabus
Did I miss any dissenting opinions (besides Kevn) on this?
_____________________
From: Bud I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
|
|
Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
|
11-22-2005 14:39
From: Zuzu Fassbinder We are up to 29 pages and I think the following summary is pretty safe:
Besides Kevn the opinions seem to be:
1) no religion in science class
2) no religion in grade school
3) religion in an optional high school comparative religion class with a carefully crafted syllabus
Did I miss any dissenting opinions (besides Kevn) on this? I'm just trying to figure out the mindset that wants government mandated religion classes but doesn't want government mandated welfare. Oh wait, nm, got it. |
|
Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
|
11-22-2005 14:42
From: Kevn Klein We all can agree the Old Testament was translated from the original Hebrew texts. That's where the Old Testament came from. Mmmm... actually I think it was what, something like 400 years before what the Christians call a bible was all written down in a fairly uniform manner. Then it was heavily edited down the centuries, with lots of parts included or not included. Remember until Gutenberg's press came along, the Middle East and Europe had real problems making books (not capable of either block or movable type printing until *centuries* after China and Korea had been doing it). I think the Gospels of Thomas are one of the most famous removals, and of course for Islam there are the famous Satanic Verses that Salman Rushdie referred to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses Entire branches of Christianity were essentially obliterated, too... think Christianity without, say, any more Protestants left and that would be the magnitude of it. Like the Arian Christians (NOT Aryan but Arian, totally different thing - Arians believed that Jesus was clearly inferior to his creator because he didn't exist before he was created, they argued, which made a big stink). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism Incidentally, the 'goths' of old, the real ones, were generally Arian Christians when they converted. I sometimes wonder if modern 'goths' would be into Arian Christianity, but I don't think most are that into history to discuss it...
_____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
|
|
Kurgan Asturias
Apologist
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 347
|
11-22-2005 14:50
From: Magnum Serpentine Yes. Each "Church" Has a council, group etc that runs the day to day activities, but it is still just
one man who makes the final decisions.
He stands before the crowd,
Uses Psychological Warfare tactics on the crowd
They are told over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
That they are going to Hell unless.....
And you will be surprised what that Unless is...
Unless you vote for George W. Bush...(This really happened in thousands of churches across the south)
A Cult is a cult is a Cult is a Cult. That is NOT Christianity Magnum. Christianity is what the Bible teaches. The rest is religion. Organized religion can be a scary thing, no doubt. I was very unhappy to see the GWB thing brought into so many churches. Christians are not to be worried about worldly things (like who the president is). They are to keep their focus upon Jesus in their life, and know that He will have a plan already worked out for His followers ("Seek ye first, the Kingdom of God..."  . The Bible speaks of a time that this will happen during the end times. It is scary. But, that is NOT Christianity. One man in our church does NOT make any final decision. It is supposed to go before the elders. If it is financial in nature, it also is to go before a board of trustees. The way it is supposed to work is they each pray about it, and God will give an answer that is confirmed to more than one. However, even my church will fall pray to not always following the edicts of Jesus (the elders, the board, and the preacher are all human; They are not above sin themselves). That is why we are not to look to the church for our salvation, but to Jesus alone. |
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 15:49
From: Zuzu Fassbinder We are up to 29 pages and I think the following summary is pretty safe:
Besides Kevn the opinions seem to be:
1) no religion in science class
2) no religion in grade school
3) religion in an optional high school comparative religion class with a carefully crafted syllabus
Did I miss any dissenting opinions (besides Kevn) on this? Do you think it would continue for 29 pages if it wasn't interesting enough to discuss? |
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 16:03
From: Desmond Shang Mmmm... actually I think it was what, something like 400 years before what the Christians call a bible was all written down in a fairly uniform manner. Then it was heavily edited down the centuries, with lots of parts included or not included. Remember until Gutenberg's press came along, the Middle East and Europe had real problems making books (not capable of either block or movable type printing until *centuries* after China and Korea had been doing it). I think the Gospels of Thomas are one of the most famous removals, and of course for Islam there are the famous Satanic Verses that Salman Rushdie referred to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses Entire branches of Christianity were essentially obliterated, too... think Christianity without, say, any more Protestants left and that would be the magnitude of it. Like the Arian Christians (NOT Aryan but Arian, totally different thing - Arians believed that Jesus was clearly inferior to his creator because he didn't exist before he was created, they argued, which made a big stink). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism Incidentally, the 'goths' of old, the real ones, were generally Arian Christians when they converted. I sometimes wonder if modern 'goths' would be into Arian Christianity, but I don't think most are that into history to discuss it... Most Biblical scholars agree on the actual Hebrew text that makes up the Old Testament. The fact the actual texts couldn't survive without scribes doesn't make them less reliable. Scribes had no ability to change the information, they only copied it word for word. That's all they did, like a human copy machine. The product of a scribe's work was closely scrutinized so the change for error was 0. The Catholic Church as it was then (the fifteenth century) put together the King James Version as we know it today. They excluded the book of Thomas because it couldn't be authenticated. The message strayed from the message of the other authorized books. That's why it wasn't included as I understand it. As far as the branches of Christianity being destroyed, I haven't seen that, in fact I notice the opposite. When a group of Christians are persecuted the numbers actually grow over time. |
|
Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
|
11-22-2005 16:06
From: Kevn Klein Do you think it would continue for 29 pages if it wasn't interesting enough to discuss? All I know for sure is: "The funny thing is, the threads talking about God weren't started by people professing religion. "
_____________________
From: Bud I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 16:10
From: Zuzu Fassbinder All I know for sure is:
"The funny thing is, the threads talking about God weren't started by people professing religion. " Read the thread all the way through, you'll see it was quite dormant when that was said. Do you want to talk about the points raised in the thread or end the thread? If you really want to end it, stop posting to it. |
|
Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
|
11-22-2005 16:12
From: Kevn Klein Read the thread all the way through, you'll see it was quite domant when that was said. Do you want to talk about the points raised in the thread or end the thread? If you really want to end it, stop posting to it. Did I say I wanted to end it? You seem to be the one who is saying that!
_____________________
From: Bud I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 16:17
From: Zuzu Fassbinder Did I say I wanted to end it? You seem to be the one who is saying that! Well, .... EDIT.................. ................................ That's why I said that. .................................. |
|
Ananda Sandgrain
+0-
Join date: 16 May 2003
Posts: 1,951
|
11-22-2005 16:19
Eww, they're trolling themselves!  |
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 16:22
From: Ananda Sandgrain Eww, they're trolling themselves! Trollin' trollin' trollin'... keep that bait a comin' raw newbie...  |
|
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
|
11-22-2005 16:23
Teach religion in Mythology class, where it belongs.
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 16:28
From: Juro Kothari Teach religion in Mythology class, where it belongs. That's not bad trollin, but I seen me sum better trollin in mah day. lol  |
|
Zuzu Fassbinder
Little Miss No Tomorrow
Join date: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,048
|
11-22-2005 17:10
From: Ananda Sandgrain Eww, they're trolling themselves! I've been studing the master
_____________________
From: Bud I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 17:14
From: Zuzu Fassbinder I've been studing the master Very good, grasshopper. Now try to take the marble from my hand... |
|
Ravenous Dingo
Registered User
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 78
|
11-22-2005 17:27
religion is teh suck
|
|
Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
|
11-22-2005 17:29
From: Ravenous Dingo religion is teh suck This is more evidence religion should be taught early on. |
