Is Religion allowed in School?
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Flyingroc Chung
:)
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 329
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11-08-2005 20:11
From: Pendari Lorentz Little surprise. As Catholics are not supposed to be able to interpret the bible unless they are a priest.
This is not precisely correct, though there is a fundamental difference between how Catholics and Protestants read the Bible. (Most) Protestants believe that no one should be telling you how to interpret the bible, and that you get to decide what any passage of the Bible means. While Catholics are encouraged to read the bible and come to their own conclusions most of the time, they are also asked to defer to clergy, and centuries of scholarship, especially for some of the more difficult passages (this is why Catholic Bibles are heavily footnoted, while Protestant ones are generally not). And, of course, if the Pope says (ex cathedra) that some part of the Bible means such and such, you better believe it (this is actually a rare occurrence -- most of the time, you'd get various pronouncements from the church hierarchy, with varying levels of "authority" (actually, even if it came from the Pope, say in the form of an encyclical, it is still not infallible)). What I find ironic is that when people are given the leeway to interpret the Bible any which way they want, a great number decide to interpret it in a slavish, literal manner.
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Kurgan Asturias
Apologist
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 347
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11-08-2005 22:16
From: Kendra Bancroft How is that racist? It was the way you said it. You know the way it looked, and I would wager you meant it that way. To diminish what Jesus, a Jew, on the cross means to millions of devout Christians. I have seen such venom come out of the mouths of radical Muslims, white supremacists, and yes even Jews who feel all Christianity is out to get them in the not so distant past. Here is a list of 10 from a quick Google search: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10From: Kendra Bancroft What do you think, I as a Jew, see when I see a cross? A dead man. From: Kendra Bancroft Further --what do you think Jesus' reaction would be? He would be sad that you see only a man. From: Kendra Bancroft The image of objectified torture of someone of my racial profile disgusts me. As it should. It should disgust you if you saw anyone of any racial profile the same. From: Kendra Bancroft Not only is it a graven image and thus against your 10 commandments, it is infact a depiction of a dead jew on a stick. No, it is a symbol to Christians of what Jesus did for us. He suffered unendurable torture, gave up his life, and had God turn away from Himself instead of us. Even though I do not own a crucifix, I do sometimes think about the pain and suffering He went through for me, and it saddens me that you would trivialize His gift to all of us. While I tend to agree that there should be no image / idol of it, I do not condemn those who chose to utilize it for a reminder of what Jesus has done for us. I do think it sad if any should worship such an item (and there are those out there that do just this). From: Kendra Bancroft You think it's horrific to say? I think it's horrific to see. As you should. But it holds something more for those who believe that Jesus gave His life willingly for us. And this begs the question, why say it? |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:12
From: Chip Midnight Umm, Kurgan, it was written by the primary author of the establisment clause describing what he meant by the establishment clause. Duh? Kurgan's a literalist. His argument is the words "separation of church and state" don't appear in the constitution and therefore the concept isn't present either. By that logic, since the Bible doesn't say "The Bible is literally true" it must not be. |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:21
From: Kevn Klein The left teaches life came to being contrary to religious teachings. Both sides believe their side is correct because both sides have faith in their theories.
Science can become a religion to those who refuse to even look at the posibility of a creator.
Contrary to YOUR religious teachings. Not to mine. What makes you think that people who don't believe in god refused to even look at the possibility? Your problem is that you think that everyone would believe what you believe if they only really, really, thought about it seriously. That is so absurdly arrogant. |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:24
From: Kevn Klein Bro Chip,
Why do you think so many are choosing to homeschool? So the left doesn't choose what their children learn. Actually the question should be, why are so FEW choosing to home school. Only a fraction of a percent of children are home schooled in the US. By your logic the majority is choosing to let the left control what their children learn. That's just silly. |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:36
From: Kevn Klein The same reason anything should be taught early on. Children at young ages are better able to absorb information. As I noticed in Spanish language Countries, children learn from a different perspective. They don't bring preconceived notions to the table.
I understand the concern some have with the posibility a teacher will inject personal bias, and I think we should look into ways to limit personal biases from early education.
The idea of a standardized curriculum has been a thought I have considered. The standard class would be recorded and tested for bias. Once we agree it's sanitized of any bias, we could use it in every class in the county (as education is a local matter).
The problem is teacher's unions will protect. Sanitized? Who decides what is bias and what isn't? The government? Didn't the Soviet Union try this? |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:41
From: Kevn Klein Not true, Logos= The word.
Notice it's not, A word, it's not word, it's The word. Study the origin of the word. Actually it's just the opposite. Logos can mean "word" or "a word" as Ancient Greek didn't have a word for "a or an". It doesn't mean "the word" because Ancient Greek did have a word for "the". |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:46
From: Kurgan Asturias While I do not have any crosses, this is still rather a horrific thing to say Kendra.
The cross that you refer to here certainly does have a meaning to some people.
Even if it was not Jesus on that cross, I am amazed at what you say here based on some of your other posts. THE STAND III:3 would surly be violated here, not only is it intolerant of Christian dogma, but it is quite racist the way you used Jew. I realize that this forum does not abide by The Stand, but I would think, as the author of the proposition, you would hold yourself to such. Calling a Jew a Jew is no more racist than calling a German a German. |
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Michael Seraph
Second Life Resident
Join date: 9 Nov 2004
Posts: 849
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11-09-2005 00:49
From: Pendari Lorentz Little surprise. As Catholics are not supposed to be able to interpret the bible unless they are a priest. It is amazing the stories from Nuns out there that were in monestaries for 30+ years, and while they had a bible in their room, never read it nor were they expected to. Umm, what were nuns doing in monasteries? Wouldn't that have distracted the monks? And who was in the nunnery? |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-09-2005 05:03
From: Michael Seraph Calling a Jew a Jew is no more racist than calling a German a German. exactly. To call me (a jew) racist, for using the term jew, is just too freakin' bizzare. |
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Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
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11-09-2005 05:19
From: Kendra Bancroft dead jew on a stick OMG hilarious!  |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-09-2005 06:16
From: Kendra Bancroft exactly. To call me (a jew) racist, for using the term jew, is just too freakin' bizzare. By saying "dead jew on a stick", you insult many Christians. I know it's not your intention to offend, but that is the effect. This is why it's important religions be taught early on. We need to learn tolerance of all beliefs. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-09-2005 06:42
From: Kevn Klein By saying "dead jew on a stick", you insult many Christians. I know it's not your intention to offend, but that is the effect. This is why it's important religions be taught early on. We need to learn tolerance of all beliefs. Tolerance of other beliefs involves accepting that some may find the symbolism of your belief system repugnant enough that they want nothing to do with it, don't want their children exposed to it, and prefer not to have it anywhere near the public square. Personally I'll never understand the appeal of taking part in ritual cannibalism under a giant replica of a medeival torture device. That's not even meant as a joke. That's how I see it. The rituals and the nature of the Christian god both make me think that Christians mistake sadism for love. It sickens me to the core that people took children to see The Passion of the Christ.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-09-2005 06:45
From: Kevn Klein We need to learn tolerance of all beliefs. Maybe you guys should have thought of that before creating an icon based on a tortured Rabbi. |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-09-2005 06:51
From: Kendra Bancroft Maybe you guys should have thought of that before creating an icon based on a tortured Rabbi. I'll keep that in mind. I'll tell God Kendra says He needs to do a better job next time. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-09-2005 07:03
From: Kevn Klein I'll keep that in mind. I'll tell God Kendra says He needs to do a better job next time. And be snappy about it --it's been what? 2,000 years He's had to fix this? |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-09-2005 07:07
From: Kendra Bancroft And be snappy about it --it's been what? 2,000 years He's had to fix this? Any other things He should fix so you don't have to be considerate of other's faith? I might as well get all requests in one load. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-09-2005 07:12
From: Kevn Klein Any other things He should fix so you don't have to be considerate of other's faith? I might as well get all requests in one load. Yeah. Get him to teach you some manners, son. |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-09-2005 07:20
From: Kendra Bancroft Yeah. Get him to teach you some manners, son. I'll do it. Consideration of other's faith would be good manners. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-09-2005 07:21
From: Kevn Klein I'll do it. Consideration of other's faith would be good manners. Good. Be a good boy now and see about that whole crucifix thing. It's not very considerate to other faiths. I suggest that whole Holy Spirit = Dove thing. |
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Kevn Klein
God is Love!
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 3,422
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11-09-2005 07:25
From: Kendra Bancroft Good. Be a good boy now and see about that whole crucifix thing. It's not very considerate to other faiths. I suggest that whole Holy Spirit = Dove thing. How is it not considerate of other's faith? |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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Who's On First!!?
11-09-2005 07:28
Abbott: Alright, now whaddya want?
Costello: Now look, I'm the head of the sports department. I gotta know the baseball players' names.
Do you know the guys' names?
Abbott: Oh sure.
Costello: So you go ahead and tell me some of their names.
Abbott: Well, I'll introduce you to the boys. You know sometimes nowadays they give ballplayers peculiar names.
Costello: You mean funny names.
Abbott: Nicknames, pet names, like Dizzy Dean -
Costello: His brother Daffy -
Abbott: Daffy Dean -
Costello: And their cousin!
Abbott: Who's that?
Costello: Goofy!
Abbott: Goofy, huh? Now let's see. We have on the bags - we have Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
Costello: That's what I wanna find out.
Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third -
Costello: You know the fellows' names?
Abbott: Certainly!
Costello: Well then who's on first?
Abbott: Yes!
Costello: I mean the fellow's name!
Abbott: Who!
Costello: The guy on first!
Abbott: Who!
Costello: The first baseman!
Abbott: Who!
Costello: The guy playing first!
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: Now whaddya askin' me for?
Abbott: I'm telling you Who is on first.
Costello: Well, I'm asking YOU who's on first!
Abbott: That's the man's name.
Costello: That's who's name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who!
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: Have you got a contract with the first baseman?
Abbott: Absolutely.
Costello: Who signs the contract?
Abbott: Well, naturally!
Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?
Abbott: Every dollar. Why not? The man's entitled to it.
Costello: Who is?
Abbott: Yes. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.
Costello: Who's wife?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: All I'm tryin' to find out is what's the guy's name on first base.
Abbott: Oh, no - wait a minute, don't switch 'em around. What is on second base.
Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.
Abbott: Who is on first.
Costello: I don't know.
Abbott: He's on third - now we're not talkin' 'bout him.
Costello: Now, how did I get on third base?
Abbott: You mentioned his name!
Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman's name, who did I say is playing third?
Abbott: No - Who's playing first.
Costello: Never mind first - I wanna know what's the guy's name on third.
Abbott: No - What's on second.
Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.
Abbott: Who's on first.
Costello: I don't know.
Abbott: He's on third.
Costello: Aaah! Would you please stay on third base and don't go off it?
Abbott: What was it you wanted?
Costello: Now who's playin' third base?
Abbott: Now why do you insist on putting Who on third base?
Costello: Why? Who am I putting over there?
Abbott: Yes. But we don't want him there.
Costello: What's the guy's name on third base?
Abbott: What belongs on second.
Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.
Abbott: Who's on first.
Costello: I don't know.
Abbott & Costello: THIRD BASE!
Costello: You got an outfield?
Abbott: Oh yes!
Costello: The left fielder's name?
Abbott: Why.
Costello: I don't know, I just thought I'd ask you.
Abbott: Well, I just thought I'd tell you.
Costello: Alright, then tell me who's playin' left field.
Abbott: Who is playing fir-
Costello: STAY OUTTA THE INFIELD! I wanna know what's the left fielder's name.
Abbott: What's on second.
Costello: I'm not askin' you who's on second.
Abbott: Who's on first.
Costello: I don't know.
Abbott & Costello: THIRD BASE!
Costello: The left fielder's name?
Abbott: Why.
Costello: Because!
Abbott: Oh, he's center field.
Costello: Look, you gotta pitcher on this team?
Abbott: Now wouldn't this be a fine team without a pitcher.
Costello: The pitcher's name.
Abbott: Tomorrow.
Costello: You don't wanna tell me today?
Abbott: I'm tellin' you now.
Costello: Then go ahead.
Abbott: Tomorrow.
Costello: What time?
Abbott: What time what?
Costello: What time tomorrow are you going to tell me who's pitching?
Abbott: Now listen. Who is not pitching. Who is on fir-
Costello: I'll break your arm if you say Who's on first. I wanna know what's the pitcher's name.
Abbott: What's on second.
Costello: I don't know.
Abbott & Costello: THIRD BASE!
Costello: You got a catcher?
Abbott: Oh, absolutely.
Costello: The catcher's name.
Abbott: Today.
Costello: Today. And Tomorrow's pitching.
Abbott: Now you've got it.
Costello: All we've got is a couple of days on the team.
Abbott: Well, I can't help that.
Costello: Well, I'm a catcher too.
Abbott: I know that.
Costello: Now suppose that I'm catching, Tomorrow's pitching on my team and their heavy hitter gets up.
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Tomorrow throws the ball. The batter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me being a good catcher, I wanna throw the guy
out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?
Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right.
Costello: I don't even know what I'm talkin' about!
Abbott: Well, that's all you have to do.
Costello: Is to throw the ball to first base.
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Now who's got it?
Abbott: Naturally!
Costello: If I throw the ball to first base, somebody's gotta catch it. Now who caught it?
Abbott: Naturally!
Costello: Who caught it?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: Who?
Abbott: Naturally!
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.
Abbott: NO, NO, NO! You throw the ball to first base and Who gets it?
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: That's right. There we go.
Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.
Abbott: You don't!
Costello: I throw it to who?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!
Abbott: You're not saying it that way.
Costello: I said I throw the ball to Naturally.
Abbott: You don't - you throw the ball to Who?
Costello: Naturally!
Abbott: Well, say that!
Costello: THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING! I throw the ball to who?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: Ask me.
Abbott: You throw the ball to Who?
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: That's it.
Costello: SAME AS YOU!! I throw the ball to first base and who gets it?
Abbott: Naturally!
Costello: Who has it?
Abbott: Naturally!
Costello: HE BETTER HAVE IT! I throw the ball to first base. Whoever it is grabs the ball, so the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What, What throws it to I Don't Know, I Don't Know throws it back to Tomorrow - triple play.
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Another guy gets up - it's a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don't know. He's on third and I don't give a darn!
Abbott: What was that?
Costello: I said I don't give a darn!
Abbott: Oh, that's our shortstop.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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11-09-2005 09:15
From: Kevn Klein Any other things He should fix so you don't have to be considerate of other's faith? I might as well get all requests in one load. This is what I don't understand about people of faith... People have very good reasons why they don't want Christianity (or any religion) in public schools or the public square. Their beliefs and opinions are every bit as important to them as yours are to you. Forcing your beliefs on them by trying to get creationism and prayer in public schools and the public square is intolerant... it's far more intolerant than asking that people keep the public square neutral and free of such things. What about that is so hard for Christians to understand? You always use the argument that science is part of the "atheist agenda" and therefore you're entitled to equal time. As has been explained now over and over (as it no doubt has been throughout history) science is not a belief system. Science doesn't teach that there is no god. It's simply a method of testing hypothesis to assess their validity compared to the evidence that can be observed. Religion is not due equal time because it has nothing at all to do with science or fact. It belongs only in social studies and history (where it already is). Indoctrinating chidren in religion breeds intolerance, not tolerance. One need only look at history to know the truth of that. Teach your children what you want at home and your place of worship. Leave school for teaching facts and skills.
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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11-09-2005 09:19
From: Kevn Klein By saying "dead jew on a stick", you insult many Christians. I know it's not your intention to offend, but that is the effect. This is why it's important religions be taught early on. We need to learn tolerance of all beliefs.
Offends or embarasses? Personally, I think its the latter. |
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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11-09-2005 09:20
From: Kevn Klein I'll keep that in mind. I'll tell God Kendra says He needs to do a better job next time. |
