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Illegal Immigration: Your Solutions

Demi Moore
Registered User
Join date: 2 May 2006
Posts: 6
05-15-2006 13:38
From: Champie Jack
Priapus,

What do you suggest we do to address the issue of illegal immigration in the US?

Do you think we should do anything?

Do you think we have a right to build a wall or fence to facilitate the patrol and protection of the border?



Well, I'm certainly no expert obviously, but I know some of the issues. Frankly I have no idea Jack. Some of the talking heads I've been listening to though have made suggestions like; Make all current undocumented workers documented over a period of a few years, to assist processing.(To some, it seems like an impossible task to deport them all while simultaneously building a very expensive wall.) So phase stuff in over a period of time.

I'm of the mindset that our country absolutely needs these workers for various reasons. Let's raise prices on certain agricultural items, and legislation to insure the profits go to salaries. That will bring documented citizens to the field if the pay is better.(Hopefully) Let's make it much easier for employers to check on the legitamacy of SS numbers, maybe a website or something, and of course penalties for hiring undocumented workers after a system is set up.

Of course we have a right to build a wall, the question is can we afford it. The irony of this current administration is that they tell us they are going to make us more secure, yet we've squandered our surplus budget we had under the Clinton White House on this fruitless war in Iraq. That money could have been better spent.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-15-2006 14:44
From: Demi Moore
Well, I'm certainly no expert obviously, but I know some of the issues. Frankly I have no idea Jack. Some of the talking heads I've been listening to though have made suggestions like; Make all current undocumented workers documented over a period of a few years, to assist processing.(To some, it seems like an impossible task to deport them all while simultaneously building a very expensive wall.) So phase stuff in over a period of time.

I'm of the mindset that our country absolutely needs these workers for various reasons. Let's raise prices on certain agricultural items, and legislation to insure the profits go to salaries. That will bring documented citizens to the field if the pay is better.(Hopefully) Let's make it much easier for employers to check on the legitamacy of SS numbers, maybe a website or something, and of course penalties for hiring undocumented workers after a system is set up.

Of course we have a right to build a wall, the question is can we afford it. The irony of this current administration is that they tell us they are going to make us more secure, yet we've squandered our surplus budget we had under the Clinton White House on this fruitless war in Iraq. That money could have been better spent.


I think a legitimate concern is that Cogress will only go part of the way on any significant reform that you mention. Perhaps we both agree that ALL of the reforms you suggest are likely to be the key to success on Immigration reform.

A wall like current legislation proposes - 700 miles of wall or fence seems like an appropriate or reasonable amount of wall. That's just enough to minimize the open border areas and act as a force multiplier to the border patrol.

As far as affording a wall, I wonder what the governors of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California would say about contributing a bit. I imagine they would be more willing to contribute some of the cash if it they beleive that it can slow the flow.

I'm no expert either, that's why I'm glad you shared your thoughts
elinor Benton
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 71
05-15-2006 19:26
From: Einsman Schlegel
They want a free ride? Send em off to Iraq, and bring our troops back home.


its what they did to slaves who wanted freedom in civil war.
elinor Benton
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 71
05-15-2006 19:37
i have finally came to a conclusion after reading through many many posts here... typically... i am a mouthy liberal... however... not with this situation... if we have laws... and do not execute them... we are basically flushing our checks and balance system down the drain.... if its okay for "Mexicans" (many are also central and southern americans) why not just make every person in the world a US citizen. Every country has poor people. Every country has young girls selling themselves. Every country has drug related issues. I think its foolish for the liberals (like myself) to call people bigots and racists etc. I know I am not. BUT I am a proud American. Just like any other country, we have pride in our country. And to those who went on and on about the Statue of Liberty... Do you have any idea what my ancestors went through to get here.... and the tests they had to take... not just written exams... but physical exams.... Yes we are the home of the free and the brave... and all that rhetoric... but if we allow for everyone and their brother to just walk across the border undocumented... it will ruin our economy... will end with this.. and i am sure i will be called a racist for it... but... if we grant amnesty... eventually all these millions of people... will be able to receive welfare. and from my experience...having lived in a highly hispanic/black neighborhood... they will use welfare... and abuse it... and so all those "jobs Americans" don't want... well guess the "farmers" will have to find some other poor hungry country.
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
05-15-2006 22:15
My solution: Make the USA as crappy as Mexico! Americans are why they come here- we make it look like a great place to live. Next time you're vacationing in mexico just mention how horrible it is here, make stuff up even!! :D
Siro Mfume
XD
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
05-16-2006 00:05
Building a wall doesn't begin to address the social problems that are inherently causing the 'problem'. It's not even a step in the right direction. It's somewhat akin to addressing poverty by cordoning off ghettos and then walling in all the poor people.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-16-2006 00:20
From: Siro Mfume
Building a wall doesn't begin to address the social problems that are inherently causing the 'problem'. It's not even a step in the right direction. It's somewhat akin to addressing poverty by cordoning off ghettos and then walling in all the poor people.


What social problems are you referring to? The unfortunate economic conditions of Central American countries as well as Mexico? Or are you referring to the business practices of US companies that include utilizing illegal immigrant workers? Or are you referring to the condition of American workers who don't want to do jobs that immigrants will do?

What is the 'problem' as you define it?

NOTE: I am not claiming that any of these arguments are valid, I am just listing the possible social conditions you vaguely refer to in your post.
Siro Mfume
XD
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 747
05-16-2006 01:00
From: Champie Jack
What social problems are you referring to? The unfortunate economic conditions of Central American countries as well as Mexico? Or are you referring to the business practices of US companies that include utilizing illegal immigrant workers? Or are you referring to the condition of American workers who don't want to do jobs that immigrants will do?

What is the 'problem' as you define it?

NOTE: I am not claiming that any of these arguments are valid, I am just listing the possible social conditions you vaguely refer to in your post.


Good good, you're asking questions. I do hope you want to know. At any rate, the problem isn't soley any of those things. It could be partly the the economic conditions of others, our companies using available law to their (as opposed to anyone else's) greatest advantage, and it could also be working conditions in America today. But it's not really any one of these things.

Lets first start with "Corporations" as they tie into many facets of this. Multinational corporations in particular. In previous centuries, there was little to no world market as far as we consider it today. Countries were isolated economically from each other in many ways. Part of this was that we didn't have cargo planes or super tankers to transport natural resources from one part of the globe to the other relatively easily compared to making the trip over land or an iffy sea journey.

Don't get me wrong, there was still plenty of trade going. But what matters to the arguement is, essentially, that one group would take advantage of another to their economic benefit. Today's iconoclastic example would be the multinational corp. They have the potential to reach into every market on the planet for labor, resources, and marketing of their product (whatever that may be). The idea here is that they can exploit every available law anywhere to achieve their maximum profit. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking this practice. It will eventually reach a level of global parity where labor and resources are more globally defined and have the same value everywhere. It's a long way off, but I'm not going to fault the multinational for not addressing the social problems it may cause (which are ultimately not their fault).

Now on the other side of this we have a rather large amount of independent countries with different rules, laws, and prejudices toward how they value their own resources and labor. In some cases this makes it easier for the multinational because it can seek out the path of least resistance toward getting what it wants (usually money).

So the thing about creating barriers between nations is that it allows a multinational to exploit that path easier than if there was no barrier. It is purposely setting up different labor pools from which they may draw. There's nothing fundamentally different from a base unit of labor in one country to the next. An hour's work is an hour's work. But with the barriers in place, an hour's work in one nation will cost the multinational 3 times what it will cost them in another. It seems a simple enough business choice to go for the best price. But it's not really good for that guy that isn't working at all because that other guy is working 3 hours to his 1.

One solution that has obviously reached the public is that the work of the cheaper laborer becomes worth more if he lives in the same geographic location as the more expensive laborer. As more and more people come to understand that, one of their options is to relocate to the place where their labor is the most valued.

So the corporation continually searches for the lowest price to create their goods and the laborer continually searches for the highest price they can receive for their labor. Eventually the problem should solve itself as parity is achieved. What has to be realized is that the parity should be the goal.

And to get to, possibly, the point: setting up a barrier will only make immigration (illegal or otherwise) last longer as a problem situation. Whether that barrier is material (a wall, landmines, machine gun nests) or immaterial (laws requiring a long waiting list that can take many years to get through). Just like a corporation, people will seek the least resistance to their personal happiness. If that involves sidestepping material or immaterial barriers, it won't bother them if they achieve what they set out to achieve.

I can explain more of these points if you want, although I won't bother arguing any inaccuracies with regards to history. That was just for some potentially helpful background. I certainly hope you can understand why I think reducing the immigration barrier (by streamlining and speeding up that legal process) is the better way to go; also why I believe a wall is a bad way to go.
Champie Jack
Registered User
Join date: 6 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,156
05-16-2006 11:10
From: Siro Mfume
Good good, you're asking questions. I do hope you want to know.


I've asked lots of questions. I don't ask them just for myself, I ask them for the benefit of everyone who reads the thread and so people express their point of view clearly and not just resort to drive-by opinions (I'm not accusing you of drive-bys, just explaining my motivation). Then I respond to points that I believe to be hyperbole, weak, misinformed, reasonabley stated, or excellently considered.

I haven't even read your post yet other than this first paragraph becasue I really have to get going. I will get back to this later in the day. Thanks Siro
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