Illegal Immigration: Your Solutions

There are Human Rights, and then there are the Rights and privelages of citizenship.

Human rights: the right to not be hungry, naked, and dying of disease in the streets. The right to due process. The right to seek recompense when stolen from or injured.

Privelages of citizenship (and legal guests in this country): free education, freedom to seek employment, the privelage of driving, the right to vote (which a felon can't do, but an illegal CAN? - It's illegal to verify citizenship when registering voters!), and access to all of the social services that our Federal, State, and Local governments provide. In addition, citizens enjoy the rights outlined in the Constitution of the United States as well as being bound by its responsibilities.

One should never confuse human rights with Privelages of Citizenship. As a law-abiding citizen of this country, I enjoy the right to many things that I would not expect a criminal to have. Likewise, I would not expect someone who is here "under the radar" to have free access to all of the things that my tax dollars pay for.

However, stupid judges and stupid lawmakers are blurring those distinctions, and essentially making it possible for people to gain access to services that they are not legally a part of. Essentially, it's now "once you're in, you're home free," and aside from the possibility (not a certainty by any means) of deportation, there are no consequences to breaking in to this country.

If I break in to my neighbor's house, and I'm caught, I will go to jail - even if I haven't stolen anything or even damaged anything on my way in.
If an illegal breaks in to this country, the worst that happens is that he gets a free ride back to the border. To make matters worse, he is often not even tried or sentanced to jail time when he commits crimes!

In addition, here in California, there are social programs and services that illegal aliens qualify for that legal citizens don't. For example, people here illegally don't have to pay for community college, even though I have to pay a few hundred dollars a semester.

To me, that's reprehensible.

Make Mexico the 51st State. (Or split it into the 51st through nth state)

Problem solved.

No wall needed.

All the Mexicans that are here would then be American Citizens. (We'll worry about all the other nationalities later)

Then we fix the corruption and other problems. Make Mexico a place people want to live in and where they can make build a decent life for their children.

The following from a director with SW BELL in Mexico City.


I spent five years working in Mexico.

I worked under a tourist visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval.

During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals (not copies) of my:
1. Birth certificates for Barbara and me.

2. Marriage certificate.

3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.

4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.

5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.

6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good standing."

7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on earth" letter. It was fun to write.
All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.

Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location (and we remember at least four locations) we were instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the government's actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Loredo Texas. This meant we rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.

We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the licensing agency to come to our headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure and If any of our senators or congressmen went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.

The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White House or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These protests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on illegal immigrants.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT
And hope ppl think of this before doing any thing to the Flag Like they did Shame on them


The Flag of the United States of America



If this doesn't give you chills, you should pack up and move on to another country.



I Am the Flag of the



Of America

I am the flag of the United States of America.
My name is Old Glory.
I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.
When I am flown with my fellow banners,
My head is a little higher,
My colors a little truer.
I bow to no one!
I am recognized all over the world.
I am worshipped - I am saluted.
I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected - and I am feared.
I have fought in every battle of every war for more then 200 years.I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appomattox.
I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France,
in the Argonne Forest, Anzio, Rome and the beaches of Normandy.
Guam, Okinawa, Korea and KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam know me.
I'm presently in the mountains of Afganistan and the hot and dusty deserts of Iraq and wherever freedom is needed.
I led my troops, I was dirty, battleworn and tired,
But my soldiers cheered me and I was proud.
I have been burned, torn and trampled on the streets of countries I have helped set free.
It does not hurt for I am invincible.
I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and trampled in the streets of my country.
And when it's done by those Whom I've served in battle - it hurts.
But I shall overcome - for I am strong.
I have slipped the bonds of Earth and stood watch over the uncharted frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.
I have borne silent witness to all of America's finest hours.
But my finest hours are yet to come.
When I am torn into strips and used as bandages for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent
at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,

I am proud.



Please forward my message to all who still love and respect me that I may fly proudly for another two hundred years.

Totally Disagree with out when they take the food ect .. away from my kids and there education by there So called Speacail programs ... and the money that is used for it .... My Kids couldnt go to summer school to help them out ... The school here were eductaing the illeagals now some thing it wrong with this picture ... i got with out some of my Medical ... but a Illegal can go ibn get speacail funds ect ... and have there Medical done for free when i have to go with out and my kids do ... they need to go back to there own Country and fix there problems with there goverenment ... The USA /Bush have given Mexico so much money where is it and what what is spent for ..... they could have taken care of there own .. with that ...

My Parents have Adpoted a boy out of Mexico ... They did it there right way .... He hates that he is even Mexican at times ....

And in Schools .... WE cant have god in the schools .. or Cant say Merry Christmas ... or have it in the schools you have to say happy Christmas ... ect now this is so wrong !!!!

When they come up here and they Celebrate Cinco de Mayo This is not a American hoilday and should be taken out .... this is America.... not Mexico

Edit ... now look at all the money we could save bye ... not funding any of this ... we wouldnt be in Debt

No, we are talking about Mexicans. But, I don't care what country you come from it better be legally.

Briana Dawson

Right on Briana


I mean during the walk out that day .... 75 illegals walked off this feild told the boss they were leaving " The boss says ok Your all fired " (they look at him and you cant do with out us .... )Well that night a 21 Year old Afraican American looks at him say .. i can have the workers you need bye tomarrow ... they all walked down got the employment paper ready .... the next day the the farmer hires them all .... about noon time the illegals come back to the filed saying we want your jobs back .. the boss say sorry ... you are no longer need here ... the leagal americans who couldnt get jobs now have jobs to support thier familys ....

then some where in Californa there was a couple of African American who went to the docks ... wanting work ... they turned them down ... they say you wont let us work her we are legal to this country but you will let them ... well the government went in and found out there was like 1200 illegals working there ... and was going to shut the whole place down ....

then there are ppl at Wal-mart and home Depot that got caught on this as well read the papers ect and trhe news ...

the leagals one that are like in there 30's still living at home with there mom and dad cuz they cant find work can now find work .... and can get jobs .

and Some thing is wrong with our Government when to illeagals were working at the same place and they government would say if one of you send your wages down to mexico .. we will give you assistance ... we need to take more of a active role in what they are doing .... The Government Our our Servents they work for us .. And we have a right for answers too


Edit look at this to if some of you dont know

http://www.weneedafence.com/default.asp

As you can see the wall is going up .. the Government wouldnt do it so Private Organizations and companies are donating every thing for the wall . The then look at the
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/minutemen_border.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4574475


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43859
Americans who are tired of there homes and land be torn to bits ... are doing stuff about this ...

There is already a system for temporary work Visa's in place. It is a very simplified program for farm workers to come into the country legally, Work, then go home they are taxed etc
I cannot remember the name of the program

hmm well, there has been since at least the 50's, a program in place for migrant workers from Mexico to be brought up leagally to do farm labor. So I guess the work force will not really dry up





O yes, Del Monte....Dole....Green Giant....Libby's...Beratrice...cannot afford to pay a living wage I can see your point.

I dont agree with this .. at all they can afford it .... the Mc Donalds Fast food chain had did most of there Business with a plant called simplot for the French Fires ect ... When the governmet went in found out that illeagal were working there ... The Mc Donalds Corporation Pulled out of ... and Went with a different company ... called Conagra .l.. I live in a Farrming comminity ... And to tell you the fammers can afford this pure and simple

build a wall.

Anyone ever try to to quit smoking? Isn't it much easier if you don't have any cigarettes in front of you? The same applies to illegal immigration. It is much harder to cross a border when there is a big wall in front of you.

Sorry I was being sarcastic and I realize that I diodn't do a good enough job,
heh funny you should have mentioned McDonald's ..I deleted them from my list of companies just cuz..
I have spent a great deal of time in Farming communities doing highway Survey, and have talked to hundred's of land owners and am very sympathetic to the plight of the small farmer, but I also realize that they are becoming fewer and farther between, as corporate farms take over. Large corporation can afford to pay a living wage, and for the small family farmer , there are legal ways to bring in migrant workers. So the excuse that it will destroy the Ag industry is a crock. Yes it is a lil more expensive to bring in legal workers from Mexico, but not all that much and i do think those who do it that way should earn points towards being able to stay if that is their wish

Because, of course, history is full of walls used as effective barriers.

I mean, it sure worked for the Chinese during Ghengis Khan's days, right? And, man, did the Manginot line sure stop the Wermacht from walking all over France in 1940, didn't it? And look at how impenetrable the Berlin Wall was... or hell, the "Iron Curtain" in general, with all those heavily guarded borders that were to keep out those nasty capitalist pig spies (and keep in those who were too mentally ill to realize they needed to stay in the Worker's Paradise).




(At the risk of belaboring the obvious, the above was sarcasm. Those web surfing with inferior browsers may need a special plug-in to display it properly. )

Don't forget the Maginot line.

I find it odd that some people in here are afraid of the American "identity" (Christmas, god, etc) being eroded by immigrants...when that identity itself was created entirely out of culture brought in by self same immigrants.

So, what, you've got your culture how you like it and you want to fix it static and unchanging now? Do you even LIKE your culture as it is?

I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about immigrants "coming over here and stealing our jobs", etc. How are they yours? By birthright? You get all the privilages of being American because you happened to have been born there? So why not bring back Monarchy?

Seems to me it's just a lot of people coming to try and live the American dream: work hard, make money, live happily. Isn't there enough opportunity for that to go around? And if not, why not?

Musuko.

You need to slow down a bit.

A wall is an effective obstacle and deterrent. Let's dissect you clever retort:

The Great Wall of China: Used to protect the Chinese from Mongol invaders. An enormously expensive project in terms of human lives, natural and human resources, that spanned over 3,900 miles. Built over the course off 5 dynasties and nearly 2000 years. I hardly think that strategic use of walls across our border is equal to the Great Wall. But apparently hyperbole is part of your shtick.

The Maginot Line. An excellent engineering accomplishment that failed to account for the Blitzkrieg Tactics that the Germans employed in their break through the Ardennes. What we do know is that the Germans did not confront the Maginot Line, they went around. The lesson to be gleaned? Protect your flanks (apparently you learned the other lesson the French have taught us: Surrender). So far you are 0 for 2.

The Berlin Wall: If we start shooting people who manage to jump our wall, then I will agree that the border wall will become the same symbol of tyranny as the Berlin Wall. I imagine that you believe Bush would sign the Presidental order to shoot anyone who gets near the wall. If I haven't convinced you to this point that you have made a very poor argument against a US border wall, then you wouldn't understand the difference between the Berlin Wall and what other border wall proponents are suggesting.

You really lose touch with reality when you mention the "Iron Curtain." I think you've been confronted with enough fact and rational thought for one day.

Champie

We are talking about illegal border crossings. Nobody resonable is proposing DEPORTING 12-20 million illegal immigrants. Nobody sensible is suggesting that this nation doesn't want immigrants to benefit from the opportunities that this nation offers. All sensible people are suggesting that we secure our borders and reform our immigration policy to allow safe, secure, and realistic immigration.

As far as people who make statements like "our jobs", etc. Those are emotional appeals that weak minded populists often employ. I prefer to not address those appeals. Regardless, you (Musuko) should be smart enough to differentiate a good arguyment from a poor argument as well as consider the situation from an objective point of view.

Please consider the following: Which nation allows unrestricted immigration. Which nation tolorates disregard for its immigration policies in the hundred of thousands anually? Which nation provides social services to illegal immigrants without question?

I'd be curious to know what government believes a policy of "open borders" is good for people of that nation.

I would love to see someone successfully dispute my claim that a wall is an obstacle. If you can argue that illegal border crossings would not decrease if a wall were employed, then I really want to hear what you have to say.

I didn't, look at the second example.



I'm not entirely sure we're reading the same thread. The complaints are about people who violate the law (you know, that whole "illegal" thing mentioned in the thread title), and don't make contributions to the economy they're benefitting from (including but not limited to paying taxes that pay for various government services they're using). I may have missed something, but I don't recall seeing in this thread anyone saying that someone going through the legal process to immigrate to the US should be banned or deported.

You need to just check yourself Noh! Stop with the reason and common sense! You needs to make outrageous claims and emotional appeals. Who would want to listen to or read anything else?

Check out this site...


www.sendabrick.com

-Kiamat Dusk

So, if I am a successful, wealthy and well educated person, I should have no opinion or interest in my country's immigration laws and enforcement?

Sorry Susie, all your statement accomplishes is the continued obfuscation of the issue.

.

"Nobody resonable is proposing DEPORTING 12-20 million illegal immigrants."

The first poster was. Remember this, as that's the main target for my responses.

"Regardless, you (Musuko) should be smart enough to differentiate a good arguyment from a poor argument as well as consider the situation from an objective point of view."

Aww, compliments will get you everywhere. *purrs*.

Ignoring the bad argument isn't sensible, because it's the bad argument that usually ends up being popular, and in a democracy that's dangerous.

I am all for sensible immigration, but I see very few people calling for that. Instead I see people lapping up the spew, linking personal experience ("I can't get a job" with the impersonal whole ("It must be immigrants taking them all!".

Objectively, I can see the following facts:

1: You have an abundance of jobs that the average American would not accept even if they were available and they needed a job.

2: Linked to above, welfare provides a way for the average American to avoid such jobs, at least temporarily (which is useful; it prevents slave-wage situations and exploitation; "work yourself to death for pennies, or starve, your choice".

3: Allowing a fresh influx of people onto the bottom rung of the economy allows an upward push in the entire system, as those new people work, earn and grow richer, consuming more, providing more jobs for those that provide what they consume. It requires, however, ever-increasing motivation in all sectors of the economy (of course, if you don't want to work hard to succeed you really shouldn't be in a capitalist system).

4: A growing population, when productive (which they are), in an economy where resources (land, materials, technology, information) is abundant (which yours is), and where there are available markets for growth (which there are; not everyone has a 50" TV yet, etc), is a situation in which economic growth can happen on a huge scale. You can see it occuring rapidly in China as we speak. An increasing population is not a burden, if you're willing to be sensible about it.

5: You have a HUGE spending defecit, and extra spending is something you can ill afford. Likewise, the short-term damage caused by massive deportation of workers (if you go down that route) would help none either.

6: There are two ways to keep America for Ameircans: fight the tide and keep out all non-Americans, or welcome them, adapt what it means to be American (which is ever-changing) and make them Americans. Be the Borg, not the Romulans.

Musuko.

Well lung cancer will kill you which will stop you from smoking right there.

If it is much harder to cross a border when there is a big wall in front of you, wouldn't it be even harder to cross if we set up landmines? I mean, it's really hard to enter the country when you're dead, right? We've also got these lovely automated machine guns we could set up at regular intervals. They can be completely computer controlled too. So real people would only need to come out every now and then to refill their magazines. Mmmm I guess a solution that includes building a wall in a desert seems somewhat akin to lung cancer for me. It'll kill you and that'll be the end of the problem.

As I've said before, if you streamline the current immigration process (which can take over a decade), you won't have people trying to walk through a desert, just to get into our country. 6 months to a year. That's all it should take, if that.

Musuko Massiel Do you even live in this country!! i have seen your in the UK???

The Pilgrims that come from the brit had a different vision and dreams ... that what set us a part ... !

and i feel that the ppl who live here ... have more to say then ... the out sider looking in ?

we may be distant relatives .. but differnet out looks and dreams ...


And the money that we are in debt could have been advioded form the start ... bye not funding the stuff for illeagals ... could save much more bye putting the wall up sooner

We need to strat worriy about our own in stead of other countries .. and bring back the troops in IRan to !!!! i just think it funny how other counties ... come running to us for monies then stabbing us in the back the next !!!!


and bye the Way Argentina said they would take them all ... we do need to send them all back to the point of orgin ... they are all spaiish speacking over there and all a Cathoic based nation and they would welcome it ... with open arms

I hate to nitpick. I should probably put this in another thread. I have taken the liberty of making this readable.