Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

sigh. Dnate, it is common practice for computer techs to refer to a CPU as a "core"-- as opposed to an entire box. Man, you really need to stop this trivial nonsense and start thinking before you post. Here's a clue: when you start to say, "You don't understand what you're talking about"... stop, look in the mirror, delete post. That's the first sign of trouble. It's arrogant. It's condescending. It's conceited. And it does nothing to add to this thread. All it does is make me start ignoring your posts. If that's what you want, ghead and continue in like manner.

Much of SL is run on your local machine. The data and such is streamed to you from another location. Lee is looking into it right now. I would suspect that the items come directly from the asset server to your machine, but I don't know. Much of SL is in the rendering, not the data itself. The core does process some scripts, your machine processes others. That is why some actions cause local lag, others can cause sim-wide lag.

Just because it is common, does not make it right. A dual core is very different then a dual processor. You know that, that is why when you speak it wrong, I question what you tell me. Personal insults will not get you anywhere but banned from the forums. I try and make sure that EVERYONE understands what is going on. I am sorry you feel that you were mislead, but accusing LL of doing it as a practice is going too far in my book. LL has always be upfront and honest with me. I have delt with them for a long time now. Lee has offered help, and would even give you your server, but you refuse his help, so how can you say that LL is not for customer support?

Wayfinder - you may have already answered this question earlier in the thread, so my apologies if I'm asking you to repeat something already stated.

By what method were you told directly and specifically that you were getting dedicated servers? Were the exact words "You will be getting dedicated servers" specifically used, or are you inferring that meaning from a larger statement?

Was this information passed to you verbally or written by an individual at Linden Labs, or was this information communicated to you by the forum in some place?
If you could link to where you got that specific information, or give the name of the specific Linden that told you this information I think it would serve two purposes:

1 - It may help LL correct a communication problem
2 - It would solidify our (us forum readers) understanding of how you came to this concusion

I know its annoying to have to repeat yourself, but just as you're pleading for better communication on Linden Lab's part - further clarity from you as well can only serve to help everyone understand

First note Dnate: I'm not the only one who says this. Have you read other posts here?

Second note Dnate: Your question has already been answered. We say that LL customer support is not good because we were given incorrect information in the face of direct answers... and the fact that we had to bring these matters to this forum in the first place.

I have a question for LL in this: just how many concierge people do you have for how many sims? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it two? A little understaffed, aren't we?

It should be obvious that if LL customer support was as it should be... bringing posts to this forum might not have been necessary.

I'm really glad that you have had nothing but good experiences with Linden Lab. Your personal experience with Linden Lab is not the sole criteria for sim operation on the grid. And your personal experience does not negate the experiences of others-- many of whom are speaking up on this forum (but I guarantee you, far more of whom feel the same way and either don't visit these forums or have chosen not to enter the fray). This isn't our imagination Dnate, nor is it attitude. There are reasons for people being upset with LL. You have a right to your opinions. So do we... especially since we've done the research.

Just like your posts on the sim lag forum. We were presenting data. You were presenting personal opinions. That's fine. But don't tell us we don't know what we're talking about. Because from where I sit, it's pretty easy to make the same claim in your direction.

You're happy with LL? Terrific. More power to you. I think it's pretty obvious not everyone agrees with you.

Alright, I didnt want to jump into this thread, because I didn't want to feed the troll. But it seems I cant find the peace of mind to do RL work without thinking about this awful mess. So in an effort to bring some sort of closure for me, let me say a few things, and then stop.

Wayfinder uses a set of "data" as the premise of their argument. But when LL asks for that data, he refuses to show it. It seems clear who is unreasonable here. When pressed, Wayfinder "has moved on", or it is "lost". It is clear to me who is being deceitful here. When presented with facts, Wayfinder responds by saying LL lies. When given reasonable choices to help settle his problem, Wayfinder says none of the choices are acceptable. It is clear to me who is being childish here.

Amidst the name-calling, implied threats, and misrepresentation, LL's respose has been professional, reasonable and sensible.

Do not feed the trolls indeed. Therefore I encourage everyone to stop responding to Wayfinder in this thread, and let him rail against the wind. And pray that I may have the fortitude to follow my own advice.

Glad you decided to jump in Flyingroc. You accuse me of hiding data? First of all bud, this is not a case as you claim, of Linden Lab demanding data and we refuse to provide it. This is a case of us providing Linden Lab that data... and they ignored it and apparently discarded it. The fact that in the light of continued lack of response from LL we did not see the need to retain that data for months on end is pretty much understandable. And I think it's pretty obvious that we have done plenty of research, both in this thread and in the Sim Lag thread. So spout all the claims you want Flyingroc. Doesn't change the facts.

Now down to facts. Last night, you and Nimrod arrogantly came to our sim, crashed a party that was going on there with your self-appointed "sim fact finding" mission, and began to spout BS about "wow, this sim seems to be working fine to me!".

Forcythia had to take you and Nimrod to task. She very politely informed you both that we were having a party and that this was not the time for forum discussion. You ignored her. At one point she even asked you both to leave. You did not (and at that point, it was only Forcythia's kindness that kept me from banning you both from the sims. And as a note Flyingroc.. if you ever bring such attitude to our sims again, that is what will happen. When you visit our home, you conduct yourself with respect).

Then we had the funny thing happen. Nimrod again decides to comment on how well the sim seems to be running, and Forcythia tells him, "That's the point Nimrod. It sometimes runs fine and then sometimes doesn't. For no apparent reason."

And Nimrod stops and says, "Oh... now I understand."

Interesting that you didn't feel it necessary to mention the results of your fact-finding mission in this post. And then you have the temerity to accuse me of lying and hiding data?

So Flyingroc, thanks for chiming in. Gave me a reason to expose your activities and a chance to present further information on the points we've been making.

I am curious why Lee doesn't have the data that was sent in... they are pretty good at logging all chat and IM chat inworld for an unspecified length of time, I wonder why they don't have complaints.

Wayfinder is quite specific in his problems. This is not Wayfinder going nuts on LL because he is having a bad day. He puts an awful lot of cash into SL, so I don't think it would benefit him to tear LL a new one for kicks.

Perhaps Wayfinder can post the link to past forum discussions on the problems he has experienced.

Also, Wayfinder, do you have support ticket numbers that can be referrenced on your past issues?

Although, to be honest, I am not sure what 3 month old data would prove anyway. How many versions of SL have been introduced to alter the architecture?

Also, he has answered my questions about his methods. If you doubt that the current data is accurate, he has provided a way to reproduce the results. I don't know Wayfinder and this thread is the first time ever I recall interacting with him, and I have every faith that the data from 3 months ago was collected and analyzed by him in the same manner. If I recall, on an older thread, he was quite specific as to what tests he did on the issue.

He is far too logical to make this up just to "rail against the wind."

And to answer your question as to why I believe Lee's answers didn't satisfy him, it is more anger at the culture of misdirection in customer service here than technical problems that is bothering him right now. So a technical solution to a customer service issue isn't exactly what will address his (and others) concerns right now.

I don't know any specifics besides what was posted here about Wayfinders interactions with Lee or other Lindens, but I do know it was WIDLEY assumed that each sim was it's own server. Paying over $2000 a year for a sim (plus purchase price of $1200) covers hardware and a couple replacements quite well, and thats just one year.

LL allowed us to mistakenly beleive that a server was what we get when we purchase an island. Maybe they didn't outright say it, but they allowed this perception to continue, and some people (including me) aren't very happy about the defecation of the people who pay the bills (and I own almost half a mainland sim, not an island).

Its a pure Customer Service issue, and that is a problem that the best servers ever imagined can't rectify. If they stated we put 4 sims on a server, but it is the best solution from the get go (or when they made the decision to upgrade), this wouldn't be an issue. They allowed us to fool ourselves, and when someone you pay a lot of money to makes you look foolish, it is perfectly natural to question if it is foolish to continue to pay a lot of money to them.

If Wayfinder wanted SL to fail, he would take his ball and go home, and stop paying LL. But like all of us who pay money, post, and log in, he cares enough to continue, but his frustration at this point is understandable.

This is by no way trolling. You have your facts wrong. This is deserved criticism by the boss (the customer). You know what they say about customer service:

Rule #1: the customer is always right

Rule #2: when the customer is wrong, see rule #1

You need to read the thread closer. He sent them the data and brought the discussion to LL before ever posting on the forums. Nothing was done, or the problem was denied.

I think you are also missing the entire point, but oh well.

None of this is the end of the world or will make SL unusable. To me it's an irritation and could hamper private sim owners business or goals. It causes people frustration. It might also have a backlash effect on LL if folks stop buying private sims.

I think there was a common misconception, or there was misinformation given, about what type of hardware private sims would run on.

I think there are telling problems that are being glossed over by LL.

I also think that some folks noticed (and notice) when their private sims went from a dedicated server to being stacked with another sim(s). They noticed because performance and consistancy dropped.

I think a clearer policy and better monitoring tools, or more leg work, needs to be done by LL.

I think LL, and Lee, want to see things run great and are trying to make them run great. I think they work hard. But they are also a business that has the obvious primary goal to make the biggest profit possible. This almost always means cutting corners and making things sound rosier than they really are. Sales pitches rarely highlight possible problems or downsides.

I think dual or quad processor servers are damn fast. But I also think that if you are stacking sims on them, they will effect each other's performancr due to load issues and hogging resources. A dual CPU server is not the same as two single CPU servers. They dual processors share certain resources and pathways.

I am also puzzled by the fact that if these new machines are so much faster in performance, why can 20-30 people lag the hell out of them, when back in the old SL days, we could cram 50-65 people in a sim running on the old crap, and still be able to move and function. Why has performance with a heavy load dropped so drastically? Why can a private sim with one or two people on it be running fine one day and be god awfully laggy and funky the next, with no change to content?

There are some questions that would be nice to see answered. But overall, if LL is fine with things as they are, it is the sim owners decisions to make. I can deal with sim lag on my end if needed, or I can log off and read a good book if it grows too frustrating. We all have the freedom to make our own decisions.

well said David

Yep David, right on the money. Of course, it's impossible to tell what happened when.

But we do know that April 26/27 (sometime in there) our sim was about 3-4 days away from grand opening. We had the whole sim built. It was running a consistent 350 fps. All content was installed and functioning. 743 active scripts... no problems. It had been running at this rate for about a week, consistently.

Then at 3pm that afternoon Forcythia and I were looking around the sim-- no other avs on the sim... and the sim dropped to 25 fps. We lagged to perdition. There was no conceivable reason why. So we called Lee Linden and that was the first we heard of the "content" claims. We tried to explain to him content hadn't changed. He didn't appear to listen to us. He just kept spouting "active scripts, number of prims" etc etc etc. All that day we ran 45-70 fps.

That's when our testing began. We told LL that we had a grand opening in 5 days and that whatever was the problem... it needed to be fixed. They were about as helpful as wet toilet paper.

I forget how long it was before our sim speed suddenly jumped up again. In a day or so we could at least walk around. But it didn't get anywhere near the original steady 350. Instead, it ran 95, 115, 150 max. At times of glorious flashes it would even reach 195.

We had to wonder what had happend. And to this day, Linden Lab claims no responsibility server side for those issues.

Folks want data? There's the data. At that point, it didn't matter what the tech/stat readings were. We recorded them-- oh did we record them. But it proved to be irrelevant. The stats did not correlate. There was apparantly some missing factor server side that we were not aware of (could it be shared servers? That should at least be considered as a possiblity, should it not?).

The simple fact is that we went from acceptably fast to slow in an instant-- and there was NO CONTENT TO BLAME in the matter, because content did not change. The sim wasn't open yet. We were the only ones on the sim. And LL continued to completely ignore that simple fact and tell us the problem was in client content. And for this, we have the privilege of paying nearly $600 a month.

So when people wonder why we are angry and frustrated, that would be the reason.

(edited to provide specific data looked up from records)

This i very much agree with. I couldn't haven't said it better!

Speaking from the front of someone with control and ownership of 14 private islands.

The Class3 and Class4 boxes are considerably faster, and we have not experienced any random slowdowns that was not caused by a content issue (and when this is the case, the Lindens have access to a profiling tool that can help track down the problem -- The concierge [Cyn/Lee] can help you out with running a test on it).

We've got a handful Class2's left in our fold, and we would be happy to trade their slots for newer Class3/4's, if anyone wants to deal - drop me or Nexus an IM.

-Adam

And to David post just now. Well said David.

I could be reading this all wrong & it does state that each of these "16 acres islands". So I'm assuming that maybe @ 1 time back in 2003 the thinking was different, but this link states that 16 acres island would be on their own server. So perhaps that's where this mythology of Private Islands being on a their own dedicated server comes from.

Of course my Firewall or Anti Virus Program probably corrupted this information.

http://lindenlab.com/press_story_6.php

"In the future advanced users, teams of players, or software developers will be able to lease "Private Islands" within the Second Life world. Each of these 16 acre islands will reside on a dedicated server capable of supporting large development projects, themed communities, or specialized game experiences. "

You are coming back to this data that you don't have again. Why is everything I say just a personal opinion, and everything you say fact? I have pointed it out again and again where you are wrong, but you just ignore that. You have to go a take some little snipit of my post and go off on it. I never claimed to have data, then when brought to task on it, said, "Well, I had the data, but now it is gone, so you just have to trust me." I have been proven wrong before, but so be it, I learned from it. You seem to be stuck with a one track mind and nothing anyone can say will change your mind.

Do you have proof that you can show me that what you are saying is true? I don't care how unreadible it is, I can sort it out. Can you show where LL promised you a server? Content causes lag, no one can argue that. LL says that one server cannot lag another server, unless you can prove otherwise, I will take that as fact too. You say you post all this data in the forums, but I don't see any of it as real data. Lots of conclusions, not a lot of data to back it up. How many sim owners are happy with the current set up and have not noticed this issue? Why isn't the large island holders complaining? Would this not be more noticed when you are trying to run 10-50 sims? You would always have a few sims randomly lagging. Maybe there is an issue, but it would lay in the code, not the multiCPU motherboard. Lee has responded to you, and you still don't seem to get it. I am not sure any amount of anything will make you happy.

LMAO, yeah when i don't activate my Illudium Pew-36 Explosive Space Modulator on my spyware blocker, that happens all the time!



All we need are mentions of Havok 2 in this press release and it would be the holy trinity of SL urban legends.

Sherlock Brock on da scene!

Long time no see brother, excellant work. Hope to see you in world soon =)

Um scroll up ^

or just visit: http://lindenlab.com/press_story_6.php



the conclusion of this post as stated by title can be verified per the scientific method

instructions were posted on how you too can verify this information were you so inclined to actually research this

Lee Linden confirmed the hypothesis

how much more data ya need dood?

First of all a press release in May 2003? We already addressed this issue. At the time, it was true.

I don't care very much that I can do it, I know I can do it, but I want to see what Wayfinder did. He never said what data proves that is lag is server side, all he told us is how to tell what server your machine is on. I could go around the grid and do that too, but what bearing does it have on his issues? He is the one making claims he won't back up. He knew about this issues after he got his first sim. Why did he buy 2 more then? If I was him, I would have gotten LL where it hurts. I would have sold my sim, sold everything I had, and said, "see ya." I would not have gone and bought 2 more sims.

You asked a straight question bluntly; I'll answer with equal candor.

Because Dnate, you put yourself in that position. You ignore data that IS presented and continue to harp that we've presented none. You fail to read prior posts thoroughly and without bias or you'd know the points you're posting have already been covered and addressed. You look at an issue and then apparently you post the first thing that pops into your head rather than thinking things through to the end conclusion.

In other words, you have a pre-disposed opinion and you're not interested in hearing anything else. That's what you give the appearance of doing, not only in this but in others posts of yours I've seen in these forums. It's a visible pattern, you choose the same approach in every forum I've seen you post in... and those of us who have actually put a lot of work and forethought into our posts find that counterproductive.

I hope that answers your question.

Forgive me if I did not read the rest of your post. I'm focusing my time and attention on folks who bring facts to the table. I appreciate personal opinion, but not when that is exercised while totally ignoring the validity of the posts of others on this thread. In other words, you're entitled to your opinion. Respect for that opinion ends when you begin to disrepsect the posts of your opponents.

Glad you think my position agaist LL and the LindeX thing is so pro-LL?!?

You say that these facts are there, but you don't produce data? I am just going to take your word on it? You fail to read posts, I even pointed this out to you with your comments on what Lee said. You of course ignored that. You keep saying I post whatever pops in my head, but if I was really doing that, I would have been banned by now trying to talk to you. SHOW ME THE RAW DATA. That is all I ask. Why is that so hard?

Fair enough, but in fairness, where was the correction? To use wayfinders analogy, we were told we were buying a corvette. At some point a corvette has become a cadilac, but LL is still taking orders for corvettes. At no point did they say "we are now selling cadillacs"

Sure, a caddy just might be better, but there is a reason food MUST be labeled correctly. This can of SIM is mislabled. It may be an excellant can of SIM, but it is not what it is claimed to be.

Or perhaps you have a link for when they announced and sent out press releases about the 2 sims per server or 4 sims per server. I would LOVE to see that =)



Please reread the title. It is important that you know what subject matter you are discussing. It might just help your understanding of the issue.

And again, the problem being discussed in this thread IS NOT LAG (although that certainly is the underlying factor), it is a culture of misdirection at best in customer service, at worst, it is outright fraud.

LL has some interesting habits regarding customer support that leaves the people who pay the bills feeling less than valued. That is the underlying theme of this topic, as well as many others.

At this point, if you can't get on topic here, I don't think I am going to respond to you anymore. Disagreement is healthy, but if we aren't even discussing the same problems, you might as well be speaking Klingon...



Don't you get it? if people did this, SL would go bye bye. no one wants that. By bringing this point up and out in the open we hope that it helps them address some issues that are seriously detrimental to the health of the platform. We WANT SL to succeed, but if this continues, who knows if people will continue to pump money into LLs war chest.

A business without cashflow is no longer a business. For the health and future of SL, you should consider giving up your "Denial Juice" habit and quit sweeping possible platform killers under the rug.

one last time i appeal to you to READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD

i am sure wayfinder would give you the raw data. he offered it to me, i just haven't logged in yet.

he even told you how to duplicate it.

if you want raw data from another thread, post there. you are annoyingly off topic here

Let's address this issue Dnate.

Fact 1: You aren't me. And you don't know all the issues.
Fact 2: I can't help it that you continue to rant that we've presented no data. And frankly, I have no interest in presenting you personally with any more data. It's pretty obvious you would totally ignore that data too.
Fact 3: You apparently have decided to not perform research yourself. So since you have done none of the work and are unwilling to do so, I politely recommend you take your issues elsewhere.

Now, I'll tell you why we purchased additional sims. Because I'm not the sole decision maker in our land group. I am not the only member of Elf Clan. For the record, I advised AGAINST purchasing any more sims. The reasons: I had evidence that Linden Lab was not dealing with us in a professional manner. I brought up the points that data that we had did not correlate with LL claims. I believed that LL was not providing the services they had promised (such as joint sim management tools). So my advice was absolutely: do not give LL any more money. I'm sure Forcythia will verify this without hesitation.

But there were other factors involved. Elf Clan had grown from 100 members to 200+ members and we were quickly heading to the 300 point (we now have 350 btw). We were outgrowing ElvenGlen.

Our group is a little different than other groups. We are theme-active. Our particular theme requires land. Lots of it. We had members constantly coming to us that wanted to rent elven lands. The group was beoming more and more active and people needed a place to conduct their accepted roles. ElvenGlen was packed one end to the other, and we had new members coming in every day.

Now we could have just ignored the desires of every member in our group-- and in fact, I mentioned that it is not our responsibility to provide housing for group members. But there's always that factor of basic HONOR... do we see to the needs and desires of our group, or do we ignore those needs in favor of personal preference? (might ask LL the same question...)

So despite all the very valid reasons to not do so, after weighing these and all other things in the balance, the decision was made to purchase another sim. Whether that was a wise decision or not is debatable. I know we have a LOT of happy group members. That means a lot to Forcythia and me. Some of these members were willing to spend two days of their personal time tracking down sim stats for the good of Elf Clan. You wouldn't believe the amount of effort that's required to visit and track 849 sims. (and why did we have to do that rather than LL just giving us the stats when we asked for them? Now there's a question. But I digress...back to the issue).

Those same factors contributed to our decision to open up a third sim when we could have simply chosen to not do so. I don't wholely agree with those decisions. And Forcythia and I have spoken more than once regarding packing up the sims and calling it quits. But then there's the matter of the hundreds of people who have chosen to make Elf Clan their home, who have invested their personal time in this group and in the elven lands.

So those Dnate.. are just *some* of the reasons we own more than one sim. Does that make sense, or is that not quite enough data for you?

Dnate, perhaps you need to stop, take a breath, and realize that you really don't know all that's going on. I've been forced to point that out now several times, even in PMs. Perhaps it's time to learn the lesson.

I wanted to remind everyone to please refrain from attacking personally those who have a different opinion than you do.