Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

Well, he should submit it to SOMEBODY. I figure a public forum where it can be properly dissected would be a good start, seeing as the lindens "lost" it.



Ogle at it and make asinine comments, just like everyone else here.






Sorta. I'm too young and ADD to appreciate the multi-faceted nature of this thread, so I should butt out while the rest of you high thinkers can slide back and forth on the slippery mat of this discussion. Even though neither side is presenting anything but vague hyperbole and sternly worded threats and assumptions.

Do I get a cookie, professor?

Lf

As a computer scientist, I can quite appreciate what LL are doing with their servers, and I know it makes sense. Lee's explanation was quite clear to me, and sensible.

You guys keep on sticking it to the man about the fact your sims aren't all in separate metal cases. Cause that really makes a difference to computing power. Whatever. I'm going to leave you to it.

That this is still going on is ricockulous. I made suggestions in another thread earlier, which were summarily ignored, so I'll make about as big a blanket suggestion as I can now:

(1) Get a Linden.
(2) Delete EVERYTHING - yes EVERYTHING - in your sim. Does it lag any more? No? Okay, then the problem WAS something in your content.
(3) Having the Linden restore the sim state back to the state before you deleted everything.
(4) Now that you know the problem is in your content, FIND IT, and stop throwing around accusations without data to back them up, and pay LL an extra couple hundred dollars for the time they wasted proving the server, sim server software, and everything else were not to blame.

This is the only way I can see of proving who's right. And if the sim performance doesn't improve when everything has been deleted? I'll eat my own words...I've just seen this song and dance done too many times, including by myself, and in 99% of the cases...LL has been correct.

Regards,

-Flip

He only did that after it was pointed out by 2 users. Before that, he emphatically denied anyone ever saying that and alleging it was some informal rudimentary explanation that must have given that impression.



100% correct, however I must point out that the press release said dedicated server





How about this, can you show me one place where they said they were changing policy and you would no longer get a dedicated server?



Is it really surprising that Way didn't keep data that was ignored by LL that he couldn't do anything with?



Who do you pay for access to your sky?

Yes! I would have kept it. I would have kept on hounding LL with the data, brought it to the public eye and FORCED LL to look at it. If his data is as complete and shows what he says, then he would have the backing of most of the forums. You can't argue with raw data. I really don't care how many times Wayfinder says he has presented data, I don't see data, I see conclusions from data that no one has any more. It will be intrestion to see if the issue of lag is resolved with the new timing of 1.7. Guess we will all have to wait and see.

You also missed my point, if I am saying that something is broken, that does not make it so. Just because I say something, it does not make it true, even if I am paying for it.

Sorry Lordfly, but you busted in and demanded we summarize, blaming your own short attention span. I suffer from ADD worse than ANYONE you know, and I can tell you a symptom of ADD is hyperfocus.

Don't throw words you threw at me that I threw back at you back at me =)



Well, in the case of the end user, the premise of this thread has indeed been supported. As for LL, they have refused to provide data. My problem at this point is refusal to present data and the tone that is being projected at someone who is using his own time to figure out things LL is not presenting openly. He also wonders if such a configuration could cause the problems he has been suffering from for a long time. Lee's "vague hyperbole" is not proof at all, even though Lee may be 100% correct



Chocolate chip, butter, or oatmeal raisen?

And hope...



If you are paying $3000 for the year for 100% use of something, and it is not able to be used at the time you need it for what you purchased it for, then there is a problem.

I can't defend Wayfinder directly because I have as much knowledge of specifics as you. But as a customer, I am offended at the tone in this thread and the tactics used to obscure, discredit, and manipulate, which are themes that can be pointed out as recurring in many aspects of LL's dealings with customers.

After we receive, and it's summarily de-bugged after leaving the Preview Grid, SL 1.7, whatever will we have to blame for, that oh so subjective term so closely tied to the end-user experience, 'lag".

BTW, Lee, are they sharing bloody hard drives or not?

From what I understand, there are no hardrives at all

All the RAM and Processors are wired directly into different Linden employees cerebral cortexes and frontal lobes

it seems, Wayfinder has been plugged into the little known "Tard Linden," hence his server is a lil slow...

This is not what I am seeing. I am seeing a company that is trying to resolve an issue, and the customer coming out and not excepting the help of the company. LL has offered to move the sim to a class 2 server. They have offered to move it to a class 3 all by it self to see if it improves. And they have asked what else he wants from them to resolve this matter. He ignores all the offers for help. He is saying things that are just not true. LL needs to correct that, so others don't came back latter and say "see they lied to us then." What is the CS issue here? I can also see Lees point of not pulling engineers off of what ever they are doing to look at something that they have no idea of what is even wrong. I would love to see the data, I wish that LL would publish something so we could end this really pointless debate. I want to see LL's data, but I understand they have higher issues that they need to deal with.

Ok, people are looking at me oddly at work now, lol, thanks Mulch (must keep from laughing that suddenly at this obviously humor-filled paperwork I am so laboriously delving into).

For the record, there is nothing more important to a company that sells a service than the satisfaction of it's customers. I don't think Way is getting that satisfaction.

NOTHING, unless the boss's daughter is hemorraghing in the lobby, is more important than customer satisfaction and service, otherwise you don't eat. (The fore-mentioned statement was not meant to intimate anything about any relation to the boss, living or dead, merely as an metaphor).

What about the living dead?

Ah hell, I knew I would miss someone

Of course, that is not the only thing I'm missing, which is the answer, to the ultimate question.......(getting that way isn't it?)

Lee, with all due respect to the expertise, insight and time you've given us in this forum so far.....are they sharing hard drives?

I've worked in Information Technology for over 10 years in healthcare.

My end-users are Doctors. Doctors are notorious for having ego's the size of Texas, and drive our helpdesk staff to drink with verbal abuse. Staff turnover is high on helpdesks as it is, but our unique customers make it even higher.

While I agree that customers need to be treated with respect, do we as customers have carte-blanche to treat the employees of the company we pay with disrespect as well?

One could say "They disrespected me first, so the gloves are off now." That sounds like tit-for-tat, which is neither professional nor mature.

I'm a firm believer that you catch way more flies with honey. The debate over facts aside, I think this thread could have been much more productive if the tone was kept positive rather than negative. I don't see anything accomplished other than many burnt bridges, which is most unfortunate.

It is possible to be a squeaky wheel with a smile on a contentious issue. It just requires an imaginary filter between one's emotions and the keyboard.

Absolutely Travis, I'll not expound, you're spot on with those points.

However, that still doesn't answer my question, which, due to a pending situation concerning a further investment into SL and thereby LL, I'd be pleased as punch to receive an answer, publicly, in this forum, not in a phone call to the Concierge Help Line, or whatever is's nomenclature.

Lee, or anyone else who represents LL in an offcial capacity, do they share hard drives?

(If you are curious enough to ask wth is this guy is talking about, you can find an original reference to this question and Lee's initial answer of "I don't know.", farther back in this rather long forum post.)

Way, that is precisely what you were saying when you sent out the volunteers to gather data. I was one of them.

You said that if we found sims with the same server number (as obtained from Help, About Second Life) that it was evidence of fraud. You went on to talk about how much in dollars this 'fraud' could total. You threatened legal action. I didn't know the technical facts so I just went out and spent two hours collecting the data for you. I suggested to you that you take up the matter with Philip if you were so worried but you would not. You said you would bring the matter up here in the forum instead, as you have now done.

I made enquiries from someone who understands the hardware and, having learned more, I felt that our fact-finding mission was mistaken. I was concerned enough about what I saw as a dishonourable approach, and by the frankly bullying declaration that "Elf Clan is at war", that I left Elf Clan.

May I ask why this even matters? Do you just want to know for your own infromation, or is there a reason you want to know? Since Lee said that sims are run out of ram, and if they do have to access the harddrive, it is a bad thing, does it really matter if they share harddrives or not?

[Theory]
I would guess that the bulk of the data is on harddrives sitting off to the side. All the "base" information is stored there. That is why when a sim crashes it can come up on another server, it just loads all the data from the HD.
[/Theory]

It does seem kinda strange that Lee has not answered this simple question thus far, but with the way that this thread has gone, he may have just missed and/or forgotten about it. Maybe if you hotline it you can get a better answer?

Erelas, may I suggest that you post the question on the hotline forum? It might be easier for LL employees to see there, rather than 12 pages into this thread. It will also give your question visibility to other interested sim owners.

Plus it would allow you to frame your question without the baggage of all the negativity that has plagued this thread.

This is exactly what was being expressed earlier. Unless someone throws a bone for them to discredit, approve, deny, embraced, etc. this question may not be answered which is unfortunate.

Which leads me to 2 comments posted earlier:





I think maybe a Policy & Procedure would go a long way's for a lot of things in Second Life. For those unfamiliar with this process, it's almost like a history of a project. It gets dated, then if a revision happens it gets revised & dated. Have 1 for Private Island, Mainland Sims, Hosting Events & a slew of other things that resident get easily confused & would like to be able to read up if/when they have time.

If you're still confused as to what I'm suggesting, it's like the beloved TOS that gets updated on a whim. Each of these projects are their own file & goes into details about the expectations, problem solving & soultions to things. It would go a long way's, is very helpful & useful rather then this game of clue that was played earlier. Then an article from 2003 would be discredited as it would've been more up to date

Mulch Bro, good to see you

I agree with what you are say, but what is being quoted is a press release. Once those are released, they are released. I think better documation all around is needed for SL. The wiki is great, but we also need an offical document release area that would list policy and procedures in a nice neat, easily accessed area. A lot of general info could go into something like that. They could list server specs, maybe known bug list, planned changes, TOS, CS, and a bunch of other random documents. I know this would take time, but would it be worth it to not have customers feel that they were mislead?

Mulch, this is exactly what I have been telling Linden Lab for months. This is not anti-SL or anti-LL. If we were anti-LL/SL, we'd sit back and watch it happen and then laugh and rub their noses in it when it did. Instead, we've told them about it. They deny it, as is their right (I mean, any company has the full time-honored right to make any decision-- even if that decision results in going out of business). But you're right on the money here-- and it's what I've told LL many times:

A recreation-based company's first concern is customer satisfaction. Because the customer can always find other forms of recreation.

LL has treated us (as I think has been evident in this thread, and from your notes in your post) as if we're troublemakers. They claim we never present them with data (oh yes we do Lee, and you know it), that our findings are faulty (if they're faulty, then give us the tools we need to come to more accurate findings-- or is that something LL doesn't want to happen?). They claim we're just blowing smoke and swaying the opinions of others-- but they fail to note that we're not the only users on these forums who have pointed to major flaws in Linden Lab operations-- and we're not the only landowners majorly upset with LL policies.

Now I have granted Linden Lab many concessions. Those concessions include:
* Leading edge concepts, largely in a beta-test stage (alternately... that's not how they present themselves)
* Very difficult and complex program-- for sure
* Lots and lots of things to pay attention to. (ie, there's not just a few bugs they're dealing with. Agreed... it's a major job)
* We're working with 3 sims... Lee is working with 1000 (I think I mentioned-- who can be expected to keep track of all that?)
* We don't expect Lee or anyone to remember everything they ever said, nor to never make an error in their explanations. We don't expect perfect communications without flaw. (We do expect accountability and respect for clients when a "miscommunication" does occur... and we expect ther to be a total absense of deceptions/lies).
* We don't expect the system to be bug free. Like Mulch said, we live with the bugs every day and we don't bust LL's buns over them. We just report them, let them know our findings, gripe when the bugs are really serious (such as the sim-killer bug we and others have reported several times-- to no avail. It's not the bugs that's our main gripe-- it's the attitude about those bugs.

So all these things we've considered, make allowances for, accept as human nature and reality. We're not utopians. We do expect a modicum of respect and common sense. I think Mulch, you've adequately pointed out that this is something we are not receiving to even an adequate, much less professional degree. And we're paying this company too much money* to be treated in this fashion.


* Want data? What is "too much money". Well, so far our group's contributions to the Linden Lab fun fund is $2,700 in setup fees, plus $585 a month plus premium membership fees plus tier for the 4000+m we hold in DarkWood. So bring that to over $10,000 a year. $10,000 for what is basically (and pardon me for being blunt, but no matter how complex baseball is.. it's still a game)... A GAME!

Now at those fees, I'm surprised we didn't receive a nice glazed ham on our doorstep when we signed up. I sure don't expect the kind of treatment we've been receiveing from Linden Lab when we've had sim problems. And I sure don't expect the kind of response and treatment we've experienced in this forum.

Obviously.

So Flip, you're saying everyone that buys a private sim should have to keep it empty to have good performance?? Seems to kinda defeat the purpose.

As been said by me and others, the sim performance is inconsistant. Same content, varied performance from day to day. And LL has been contacted about the poor performance and consistancy quite a few times.

It's great that LL has been correct 99% of the time, since the most common response is "It must be the content" without any real checking on performance. Nice to always be right without having to show you're right or do any work to make sure you're right.

If you have the exact same content on a sim over a span of two days, and on one day it runs smooth as silk, and the next it runs really poorly, how does this point to content?

Not strictly true.

Beyond a certain point, the cost of keeping a chronically complaining customer does, in fact, outweigh any possible profit to be made from them. Ask any salesperson.

Not saying Way is in that category at all, but after my own experiences with retail and service industries, people who keep bringing up "but the customer is ALWAYS RIGHT!" give me hives.

Three replies here:

1) The lack of a contract is something that one poster pointed out. WHY DON'T THEY? They're charging people thousands of dollars a year, and they have no User Service Agreement? Doesn't sound so professional to me. And why didn't we ask for a USA up front? Don't ask me. I must have been brain dead to ever be talked into this. LOL

2) Ah, the old claim that if someone disagrees with your opinion, they must be lacking in understanding of how computers work. I get so tired of hearing this arrogant claptrap time after time on these forums. Makes me want to respond with not-nice statements.

3) If you want to hear from people who have actual problems with their sims... just read a while on these forums guy. It won't take long.