Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

Then there are newbs that dont know Mulch of anything, they come into the story half way and havent been in secondlife long so they dont understand the history of such claims.

I would like to make a suggestion. We can keep going back and forth on this situation. As you all know I am estate owner and I dont know much about servers and such and I am learning as I go along.


But I must say I have made investment like the most of us have. I think Lindens should have a town hall meeting with all the estate owner and discuss this matter. Yes I am unhappy with the way the sim has been running. And I would like to know the true facts on why is happending. And Im sure everyone else would like to know too. And how it can be changed in a positive way. We are advanceing community and we should be setting examples for the new people that join second life. If it dosent change it will only hurt us all in the long run including Linden Labs.


Lee and the tech support please setup and townhall meeting.

guilty conscience?

I was simply asking for verifiable tests, seems you have a problem with that, partner =)

so glad the big old trolls scurry from beneath their bridge to be so welcoming to us NEWBS

(wouldn't it be far more effective to prove your elitist point by calling me a n00b?)

Yeah you are 11 months older than me billy

what is 11 months?

not old enough for potty training

not old enough for first steps

but somehow old enough to be a know it all

I see people discussing, passionately, yet logically

then i see a couple infants throw a tantrum

and I come in and ask for verifiable tests per the scientific method

and an infant calls me a newb

I remember when i was young and stupid...

don't worry, with careful preparation and frequent diaper changes, you will grow out of that stage too =)

I won't be burping you, kid!

and no I won't pay your toll, troll



done responding

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

Im sure anyone will agree, 11 months in a virtual world such as secondlife is a decent amount of time.. especially when secondlife is ever changing..you havent seen what has went on in the past, you havent witnessed the misconceptions that have been outted in the past, you havent..well seen shit really. I really find you quite funny in the fact that you have no basis to stand on, i can say iv had a private island on the old servers, i can say iv had one on the new servers, hell i can even say iv had two sims on the old servers.. wait..maybe more than that. What im trying to tell you is that you dont know half of it and you try to ease your way in pointing people out that make their input known. you pick on me and eggy, two of the people that have worked with land/scripts for quite some time and you try to portray you have a better knowledge of things that went on and are going on now, please dont amuse yourself with your cutesie one lined antidotes, they are really childs play and im tired of playing with kids.

hell, I woulda stacked 20 sims on Wayfinder!

I can piss farther than you!!!!!

The information on the sims sharing servers was gathered within a 48 hour period. Volunteers were given ranges of letters of the alphabet, visited each sim, and copied the information from the Help/About Second Life window, using the first statement: "You are at......." then compiling the information.

I know a person talking sense when I see it, and this guy is talking sense. He's earned my respect. I think that's a case sucessfully answered and resolved.

EDIT: Yes, Lee wrote a lot more, but I cut most of it out cause I wanted to quote his post, not a specific part, so I just included the top of it.

I still find this thread interesting. April Chung says something that makes much sense. So i won't repeat what she said its in few post before this. All here that are SIM owners or large SIM Estates Continent, Group Islands, Small Sim Islands, but Estates all the same have made a considerable investment in their sim and paying huge chunks of money monthly to Linden Labs. We all need a immediate response from Linden Labs to hold a town hall meeting or something with all private sim owners, island owners or large estate owners and demand some kind of explanation to us all. It gets childish now in this post with all the constant bickering back and forth or name calling back and forth about who said what or someone not liking someone post or research or what.

I need a solution and thats what i want. If this thread stirs action from linden then thats what i need. I have investment in my Sim. Everyone does and its huge investment cost. What kind of company has major clients as accounts and not provide adquate information to their clients or not address them to reslove their issues. IMPORTANT issues when they have them. Maybe one that don't care i would think. If that is so then Linden Lads only shoots them self in the head and in end kill their clients too. So no one wins of issues not resloved and SL hurts even worse in long run. However i much say to Credit Lee Linden with going beyond much to answr much in this thread. He did much to answer and inform and much credit to him

As a SIM owner and estate owner i want answers too. I need to know what the heck my sim is running on. You the next sim owner, estate owner, group island sim owner need to know also just what the heck your sim is running on too, we all do. And from all this it needs some people in here with some common sense and Linden to make note this is a dam important issue. For it seems a bunch of Private island estate sim owners is angry for no accountability from linden as to just what the heck they got, you got, i got and who knows what the next he/She will get next week when they too buy a private sim too and wondering what the heck they getting. I have no idea what the heck kind of CPU my sim is on. Oh it was that Server with blue smoke in it i thought! For what i paid i thought thats what my server, you thought you were on too. I wonder then why the heck my sim cost so dam much to get set up anyway and my monthly fee thereafter. We were all duped it seemed in some way. Now Linden Labs true or not no matter where that comes from the myth thats your PR to correct and needs to be fast. Thats bad PR to sim owners or to all other residents for they end up buying sims too based on what they know or have heard or when ask linden too. Class whatever! Linden haven't told me yet. Hell i'm sending them a email for i want to know. And if Linden reads this, yeah they can looks it up and inform me for will save me the time to have to email to ask anyway. Talk about client relations. As major clients Linden Labs needs to communicate to us all Sim owners just what we are all on, data, tools to track sim performance. We need raw data or tools as some have posted before to see sim performance or if sim not performing be able to see trends and to know if it is to report it as issues to be accountable to to fix. I have a sim i have no dam data for my sim. It is upsurd for Linden Labs to ask anyone or sim owners who manage the platform and own it to ask any of us to give them data or do independent test on our own sim to report back to them if our sim not working properly. What just the heck is they doing in their invisible server room with all their data, network tools, trend analysis tools for the SL sim and grid. Just what the heck do you or i both pay them hundreds of dollars fee a month for if they can't tell you or me their most important client? Hell they have all the raw data! All i as a client need to do is report i have a problem or to any other company that is. Again i will give Lee Linden credit again. However you too and i don't need a hostile Linden Lab employee or another telling me the Client who i remind them pays their bills in a big that i don't have a problem. What the heck kind of tech support is that, what kind of PR is that or to Sim owners! I tell you you investigate my problem our problem. Let my phone company tell me or you we don't have a problem see what happens.

Now I'm a sim owner. I only know a few sim owners. You may be a sim owner! We all need to get togeather in world and compare notes or imform each other on these issues when they arise to linden or group our concern so issues are addressed by linden in one voice or grouped.

I have a few good sense. Well maybe i loose some here in this thread. Lots of people here do have good sense. Some smater than others. I'm getting a education here on a few things in this discussion and information i did not knowI don't resort to name calling. Your my sim mate, you make Sl fun. But Linden needs to inform all sim owners FORMALLY and schedule a TOWN HALL MEETING soon.

And other issue is we have a lot of sim owners who are unaware of all these issues. So with a few good sense i will ask or propose this. Can someone tell me if their is a group just for sim owners or private island/ island estate owners so we all know each other, be aware of such issues and so you don't have to hunt down to find who owns what sim. And if no such group exist then someone here with some sense need to start one! If Linden never do anything maybe something can come out of this thread yet. I'm not tech savy as i need to be but i'm smart enough and learning. When you who every you are form a group you can IM me and i will be there for i have valid issues, just like you, we own large masses of land, paid much investment to linden too and if you got issues i may have same too. Now when is LINDEN LABS GONA HAVE A MEETING TO RESOLVE SOME OF THESE ISSUES and put out the blue smoke! And Linden Labs we don't need no name calling here for we sim owners aren't no child either. WE Pay a good size of Linden Labs Bills and we all need accountability as your clients. And Linden need to resolve all or any issues in formal communication or on their website as to Any, All, Future Myth or Sim, Private island on server or any such error in communication that may come up. This is a bad PR issue for Linden Labs and you and me sim owner is not been served with issues unresolved and the other issues on the table also. Enough Said.

Unless I missed the answer somwhere previously, I still do not see that the question of whether these CPU's are sharing hard drives has been adequately answered.

Lee stated that he did not know, fair enough, however, by now I wold think that this question can have been answered.

Are they sharing hard drives, because as I understand, since the weakest link in a system is the last remaining piece of mechanical gear, it'[s not a bad question.

I think it really doesn't matter with this being the case.

I believe all your problems are coming from this townhall from philip about the changes in island pricing

/3/e9/51984/1.html

Where he states

"Philip Linden: we buy faster machines - we get the best hardware we can for about $1000.
Philip Linden: Last year that was P4's.
Philip Linden: Right now it is dual core opterons.
Philip Linden: We buy the best we can get for $1000, so that newer sims can run faster"

It seemed to me he was talking about the maingrid sims, not islands. I think the mainland sims do run on the same class of machines as the islands.

Lee, when we stated that people at Linden Lab deceive us, this is what we mean. Because earlier in this thread, in fact in more than one place, you INSISTED that LL had NEVER EVER said that sims would be on dedicated servers. However, now we learn that this wasn't the case, you knew this, and just decided not to mention it because you "didn't want to clutter up an already long post by making a caveat".

I recognized immediately that this was an old press release and not a binding document. But it IS a statement by Linden Lab that private sims would be on dedicated servers. You knew this existed, yet you insisted that nothing like it did. How many other items such as this might be out there? Binding document or not, this article DOES constitute proof that people believing their islands were on dedicated servers was NOT just our imaginations, nor is it just me rabble-rousing. That was an official Linden Lab statement and it establishes foundation. Man, you just stood up and proved what we have been saying all along-- that LL decieves its clients. And that you stand there and rationalize that is the root problem.

That's your decision Lee. If that's how you want to conduct business, go head. But don't ask me to trust LL statements. I'm going to trust the data. We've been talking all along about LL hiding information and blowing smoke at users. You folks can come up with all the "good reasons" you want. The bottom line comes down to basic honesty. For you to be aware of such press releases (and other things like it?) and decide to withhold that information (for whatever lame reason)... is exactly what brought this thread to the forums.

Thanks for stepping up Mulch. One of the sad facts of computer life-- arrogant and immature people abound. At this time I'm just considering their messages trash and skipping over them.

Regarding the data, there's only one way that I know of to do this (since the tools do not exist within SL to check your server status). You have to visit every sim on the block and look at the HELP/ABOUT SECOND LIFE screen. The third data line tells you your sim#. Recent sims apparently do not HAVE a sim number (one has to wonder why) so you have to look at the IP address instead).

The way we did it was to send some volunteers from our group (as of last night, 350 members strong... woot! ) to every single sim we could send them to and they copied down this information. Took 2 days. I can't post it here because of the extreme length. IM me in-game and I'll forward you a copy.

Yes i agree, i meant that when people are paying the same price for an private island, that he said that the sim hardware costs them, ie now its 1250 so he said the sim hardware was costing 1000 and 250 for setup thats not too unreasonable to believe you were getting your own machine.

LOL Mulch. Yup. That's the conclusion I came to last night. I don't even feel pity for such people, because they are what they are by choice. I don't care what their RL is like, it doesn't excuse the kind of conduct they bring to these boards. In many forums posts like Billy's would have resulted in his being booted. In the case of these forums, LL tries to moderate with a calm hand, and people like this thrive when they find out they can pretty much cop any immature attitude they want and get away with it (pretty much like misbehaved children who stand in a store and scream because they know their parents won't do anything about it).

So yeah, do not feed the trolls. Good philosophy of life.

Hey Nathan, you said it right there.

From Phillip Conversations, and all the other info that is implied too. Yeah $250 to set up a sim would not seem unreasonable even if its a flat sim just for the admin, testing and location of grid all admin stuff. But when you paying $1250 for your sim and they call it set up fee. I could only believe You, Me we all are getting a dedicated piece of hardware. When you add both those cost thats adds up. So we all left wondering just what the heck we all got for $1250 set up fee. Heck my Sim came flat as a sheet of paper. Now someone tell me here, your all smarter than me, i only have common sense where the heck is $1250 set up fee in that thats justifiable without believing your getting dedicated hardware for your sim insland and mine also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erelas Night
Unless I missed the answer somwhere previously, I still do not see that the question of whether these CPU's are sharing hard drives has been adequately answered.

Lee stated that he did not know, fair enough, however, by now I wold think that this question can have been answered.

Are they sharing hard drives, because as I understand, since the weakest link in a system is the last remaining piece of mechanical gear, it'[s not a bad question.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Linden
My understanding is that if a sim is reading the hard disk, that's a bad thing. Generally speaking, the entire simstate is in memory. Simstate files are only a couple of MB; that covers all the objects, terrain, etc. Not sure on the textures and sounds (whether they go from asset server to client, or asset server to cache on sim to client), but there's 512MB set up per sim. Last I heard, sims don't read their hard drive much, and it's noticable when they do.





I agree with your statement from a purely technical outlook, in that it perhaps does not matter in it's impact on sim performance, however, I would like an answer as a consumer, Estate Holder, or whatever else I may be classified as

This is a real eye-opener for me. 1000USD for a quad processor machine would be quite a bargin. Even for a dual processors it is. Now, if you take the cost of the quad processor machine, divide it by the number of sims it can handle, 1 sim = 1 processor, 4000USD sounds about right. I am going to have to assume that is what Philip was talking about from a technical standpoint. I can easily see where someone that has limited knownelge of this type of infromation could draw the wrong conclusions.

Also, I bet a lot more goes into setting up a sims then just connecting a few wires. But I don't know what LL does, so I will leave that for others to explain further.

No, re-read what Lee said, he said nowhere do they say you OWN the hardware. I could not find in this thread where he said that LL "had NEVER EVER said that sims would be on dedicated servers." Sims used to be on dedicated severs, so that would have been a outright lie had he said that. In the post you are referring to, he states that "I did know that we took efforts over the first few months to be sure to not refer to them as dedicated servers, as we were rapidly shifting to the much-better dual-CPU servers." So at the time, the press release was correct. If you are using 2 year old data for a platform that was in beta at the time, I think it is your own fault for assuming this.

A thought strikes me in all of this, and it comes down to simple business:

What were sim owners told they were getting?

In our case, we were told directly that we were getting dedicated servers.

That's the bottom line. Period. When you buy a Corvette, you don't expect it to get switched out for a Cadillac because the dealer thinks the Cadillac is a better car.

Now in the case that Lee has presented, he's basically asked sim owners this question:

Do you want to stay on your nice, fast multi-core 4.0 server, or have us drop you to a dirty old 2.8 single-core dedicated server? (not an exact quote. I decided to translate into english).

The question I ask in return is this:

Is that the only choice there is? Well, since LL has already made the decisions for us and switched out Cadillacs for our Corvettes... there's not much that can be done about it short of suing their butts to the wall. And I think it's pretty obvious (and of course LL realizes this) that it probably wouldn't be worth it.

But I myself have a nice dual-core computer that cost me about $850 retail market. It has all the bells and whistles. Now I can't help but wonder what must be available that would make a perfectly good dedicated server that would give clients that speed boost they need without doubling up sims on a single server. All that I know is that SL is not performing to reasonable specs, and it would seem that the shared server issue just MIGHT be an influence on that. And since LL has obviously NOT been straight with us-- we really have no way of knowing the truth about that.

You want to convince me. Let your users bring in 3-rd party server techs to inspect your setup. Let THEM run the tests without LL bias obscuring the data. The primary question would be this: are there reasonable scenarios in which two sims existing on the same server can impact the operation of the either sim? Let's see what those techs come up with. I strongly suspect at this point that it will be different results than LL came up with.

But the big problem with even that is that in any server situation, it is easy to obscure data, and if LL is really intent on doing so...that's what will happen.

Paranoid of me? At this point, I think the data proves it's justifiable caution.

I have this question:

Is the choice that Lee offers the the only choices possible?

I mean, how about choice 3: Put your clients on high-speed dedicated dual-core servers? I mean, if you're going to switch out servers and your clients are paying $1,200 a pop... seems there are a few more options than have been presented here.

I know it's too late to do that now. That's the problem isn't it?

LL basically took the stance that this was THEIR decision and that it wasn't necessary to factor their clients into the deal. Why, it wasn't even necessary to inform their clients that this is what they were doing. They just DID it.

Then when their clients find out what's been delivered and become upset, why, poor Linden Lab. Why would everyone gripe at them? Then the groupies and trolls start chiming in when frankly, they don't know what they're talking about. They haven't done any research. Most have never had anything to do with owning a sim. They just spout whatever comes to their minds and further clutter the issue. And thank goodness for other users who jump in and start cutting off troll heads, because really, only good troll is no troll. We're presenting business research while spoiled brats obscure the issue. Give us a break. Time for a bit of forum house-cleaning, it seems to me.

This is business Lee. Clients don't put up with excuses and rationalization. You deliver what you contract to deliver. And you never, ever lie to your clients. Period.

Dnate, again dude... you see part of the issue.

A quad processor machine is expensive, yes. That's not the issue. Was the quad-processor machine necessary? Was it the best choice? Ah man, I'm not even going to get into this further. Guy, the cost of the processor isn't even CLOSE to the issue.

That quote was not directed to you, it was directed to the person that posted the quote. I understand where you are coming from much better now. You say you where told that you were getting hardware, or at least a single processor server. It was not the intention of LL to mislead you, because when I inquired about buying a sim, I asked about the hardware, and was told that it would be on a dual processor machine, but I was also assured that one sim cannot effect the other, unless it causes the machine to crash. So I guess LL did lie to everyone, because if one sim caused the machine to crash, then it will effect the other sim on the processor.

Even in the post before you again don't understand what you are talking about. You say "Do you want to stay on your nice, fast multi-core 4.0 server, or have us drop you to a dirty old 2.8 single-core dedicated server?" It is NOT MULTICORE. It is multilple CPUs on a single motherboard. You can say, well that is not what I ment, but it is what you said, and that is all I can go buy. You do say multicore over and over again, and this is just not right. It is multi-CPUs. I really have nothing else to add to this thread, because Lee pretty much covered all that could be covered.

That quote was not directed to you, it was directed to the person that posted the quote. I understand where you are coming from much better now. You say you where told that you were getting hardware, or at least a single processor server. It was not the intention of LL to mislead you, because when I inquired about buying a sim, I asked about the hardware, and was told that it would be on a dual processor machine, but I was also assured that one sim cannot effect the other, unless it causes the machine to crash. So I guess LL did lie to everyone, because if one sim caused the machine to crash, then it will effect the other sim on the processor.

To answer your questions, I am sure that LL has done a lot of testing to ensure that it was the best choice for the money. If you can get 4 sims running on 4 CPUs at a 25% gain for the same price as 4 sims running on 4 machines at a slower speed, which would you want?

Even in the post before you again don't understand what you are talking about. You say "Do you want to stay on your nice, fast multi-core 4.0 server, or have us drop you to a dirty old 2.8 single-core dedicated server?" It is NOT MULTICORE. It is multilple CPUs on a single motherboard. You can say, well that is not what I ment, but it is what you said, and that is all I can go buy. You do say multicore over and over again, and this is just not right. It is multi-CPUs. I really have nothing else to add to this thread, because Lee pretty much covered all that could be covered.