Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

(goes to read Wikipedia link... likes Wikipedia...) Thanks, Naib!

All due respect Lee, here you are telling him he must provide details that you are not willing to provide him. Just doesn't seem fair. You get the monopoly on information, access to stats and tools we can't use to trouble shoot, and not only that, you refuse to provide your own internal data while losing weeks worth of stats you guys requested from him, and he claims to have submitted, months ago.

You're holding a monopoly on information and asking him to prove something he doesn't have the tools, means , or the data which you wont you wont "put together something to show "

this is not a level playing field when you hold all the cards.



share your tools or internal benchmarks, geez. you have everything, he has very limited ability to test things in a controled setting. you tested it, post your feedback on it.



give him the damn info!

give him "access to knowledge (he) don't have."

or give him some sims to test over a week, 2 on class 3 shared, 1 on class 2 alone, and 1 on class 3 solo. Throw in another on a class 4 with 3 heavisly loaded sims.

make it identical in terraform and space them out so child agents don't effect the results. lock the sims to everyone but him, and let him set up the same, add all content, identical parameters, identical content, identical locations on all the sims

point being, if you are unwilling to share your data with your customer, provide him the tools to test it in a CONTROLLED ENVIRONEMT (the essence of sceintific testing)

don't rub his nose in the fact that you have more info than him, but you are 100% unwilling to share your info. He pays extra for an island, so he shouldn't HAVE to test this out. thats what he is paying extra for. at the very least, the data should be made available to him, or he should be able to bill YOU for troubleshooting your sims

since you have done tests (and hopefully in a controlled manner) turn the results over to him, to all of us actually. WE did pay for the testing you did and won't share, now didn't WE (collectively, as customers)

and i'd be careful, because others are watching YOU (LL, not Lee Linden) on how YOU deal with your customers and the tone you take with them...

that is the meat of this matter.

BTW, this isnt exclusive to land issues. I seem to recall Philip saying he would post the employee handbook within 2 weeks... and that was 6 weeks ago

A+ analysis

Lee, you are probably brilliant at whatever you do there, but saying the right thing to a customer is not one of your strong points

Customer Service should be diplomatic, and it almost feels like you are taunting him with data you dont feel you need to provide

and then you dont have the data Wayfinder provided to you through your official channels

he turned it over to the pros and they fumbled and somehow lost the ball (wayfinders records)

and now the harsher and more secretive you get with your data while telling him he 1) doesn't have all the info and 2) you are not willing to give him the data or methodology for testing this benchmark is really doing far more harm than good

seriously, you are blowing through a lot of goodwill here (LL not Lee Linden) by this approach, and more than Wayfinder is getting bad vibes off this side of LLs treatment of its customers and protection of our assets

just remember Lee, we all want SL better and to thrive for whatever reasons we have. We are working toward the same goal and you making demands of the people who pay your bills while refusing to hand over information that may prove helpful is extrely damaging to your credibility (LL not Lee Linden)

Im trying to help, but it seems you are determined to dump Wayfinders problems in HIS lap. This is making me and several others who have seen this post VERY uncomfortable doing business with you

while i do appreciate you being available on the forums to discuss, you are doing more harm than good at this point being so secretive and confrontational

Im not being a hater here Lee, I'm trying to HELP LL and SL as a whole so we can all feel good doing business together and have the property function the way it should

If this is all there is to go on, then there's nothing. Besides the excellent point of "server" not necesarilly meaning hardware (which is usually what the term "box" is for), look at all the future tense used in that paragraph. Companies plan things all the time, some of which never see the light of day (the SNES CD add-on, anyone?). And who knows, maybe someday they will offer a service where advanced users can get their own dedicated box at a reasonable fee for such a thing.

It's easy to see why that could be misinterpreted, yeah, but IMO Lee did a pretty nice job of explaining.

And as was also pointed out, this was in the very same press release just a few paragraphs up:

So why aren't you bitching about no Linux client, too? Not only did they promise a Linux client, they gave a pretty nice date for it too (which has passed). And I'd be inclined to believe LL would get more users by releasing a proper Linux client than it would lose from some potential problems of private sims sharing a box. So, if you guys are really looking to help LL out, perhaps we should realize where the bigger issues are.

The emphasis was added by me, hence I WAS bitching about linux.

I also mentioned Havok 2, which is now outdated and unsupported by the makers of Havok (Havok 3 is out now), so when this fianally gets implemeted, it will already be obsolete

but while they loadly boast about what they are going to do, when they don't, they at BEST mumble it, at worst, hide it

Linux, Shared boxes, and Havok 2 are all just symptoms of the underlying problem.

I'm not bringing this stuff up to gloat or laugh at their inadaquacies; there has been a disconnect in how to deal with the customer base when touted things don't pan out in a way they were conveyed

that is the BIG issue that needs to be addressed. Address how information is deseminated and treat us like adults who pay the bills and can handle change, work arounds, and delivery problems, and we will understand. this is brave new territory LL is working on. Of course there will be issues and we tolerate the issues mostly as we hope it will make a stronger overall platform

but when things are lied about, hidden, and blame and responsibilty is shifted to those who pay big bucks into the company, good will is whittled away

I meant the people in this thread in general, not just you or anyone in specific.

Thinking about how to respond to this... This is how I see it. From everything I've seen in this thread, I haven't seen any proof of Lindens lying. Not saying they have or haven't, just that I haven't seen anything here to indicate such. As for things being hidden.. that's a tough one. On one hand, yes, I believe the information should be available at request. On the other, putting the information out there for all to see is just asking for problems of its own.. after all, the one thing worse than a person that doesn't know about computers is a person who thinks they know about computers.

And about blame and responsibility, this I can't comment much on from LL's perspective since I've not dealt with the Linden support teams before. However, I do know people (some of them rather close friends) that have worked in the tech support industry. More often than not, the support people are given incomplete information, information that's of no real importance, both, and/or more. When they're not given any information that indicates the problem is likely server-side, they have no choice but to assume it's client side. It's not that they think that they're infallible or close to it, it's just that they can't go chasing every issue that gets sent their way, especially given the nature of computers and that it's the client's computer and content (as opposed to the server's/miantainer's) that is the most volatile part of the whole equation.

First of all... I don't know out of what technobabble closet someone pulled the concept that "server" refers primarily to software-- but sorry, I've been in the computer business for 25+ years and this is a bunch of hooey. If you don't want to accept dictionary definitions-- then don't apply for a job with us. Because when it comes to computers, I go by the book (unless of course, I'm in the mood to be really inventive and creative-- then watch out).

When someone says to me "the server is down"... it doesn't mean their software package stopped working (although that can certainly cause a server to go down). When someone says, "We're having server issues" it doesn't mean their software package. It refers to the whole central system. When someone tells me "our server's running at amazing speed"... do I need go on?

Server software is an OS... not a server. While no one has complete, all-systems experience on every computer environment in the world (ie, I don't know everything in every situation. Don't claim to)... a server is hardware people (including of course, the OS that runs it. Natch.). So let's put an end to the myths and fables and stop smoke screening the situation. When LL told us that we would be on a dedicated server-- it should be obvious to any computer customer that THEY WEREN'T TALKING ABOUT A SOFTWARE PACKAGE.

Now can we get back to reality?

As for me testing out Linden Lab servers-- I am sooooo tempted. But out of that idea comes one, all-pervading thought:

Why * should * I * do * that? I mean, I don't think I have any masochistic tendencies, and last time I checked, I was a quart low on stupid.

Linden Lab has already shown themselves totally unwilling to examine/ analyze/ accept data we've already presented to them. And from what I've seen so far, I'd at this point actually question whether they would set me up under exactly the conditions they claim to present. (not accusing, no offense intended, just observing).

Bottom line (and again, I'm not accusing anyone) Linden Lab stands a lot to lose if our findings do prove that they took a wrong direction without informing their clients. Linden Lab is a multi-million dollar company. Does anyone honestly trust anyone in such a circumstance to throw their doors wide open and allow complete examination without sabotaging the system? I'm not naive enough to expect such-- or to trust such.

The only way such an experiment could be conducted would be to bring a team of techs into Linden Lab, bar their engineers from their system, set up failsafe measures and data trackers to make sure no external influence was being exerted on the system, and go at it will all professional dilligence. And if anyone thinks it would require anything less than that, they don't know big business protectiveness. When millions are at stake, ethics tend to take a background. It's wrong-- but it's human nature. And it's money.

Now to be fair-- it's their company. If they decide they want to set up quad processor servers, that's their choice. And *if* they'd have come to their clients with that information, I *might* have even supported that decision (or not, depending on their satisfactory answers to my questions).

I'm not accusing Linden Lab of fraud. Fraud deals with intent. I'm not able with my resources at hand, to determine Linden Lab intent.

What I have determined... at least to my satisfaction... is the original claim of this post: Linden Lab has shoddy client relations. They obviously don't keep their clients informed. They don't have a service agreement package in place. They don't notify their clients about major intended business changes (such as switching to dual-processor/shared resource servers), and as has been adequately shown here, when clients ask questions or request data, it appears that Linden Lab either doesn't answer, provides misinformation, decieves, hides facts, or outright refuses to meet client demands.

That's an unprofessional attitude. I've seen the song and dance show here on this thread and others, and I've been a businessman too long to be taken in by what one user accurately described as "marketing claims". I know how company propaganda works.

So at this point, our decision is simply this: are we going to continue doing business with Linden Lab? That's a question for my landowner group to decide-- and it entails more than just this base issue.

However, I would guess that the first time a competitor shows up with an equal or better product (which I expect won't be too long on the computer-time scale of things)... Linden Lab dealings with clients are going to be remembered.

unless you are an alt, you will get used to the way things work. this isn't to scare you, but honestly, there are several running jokes here, like this is still a beta (they tried to get as many people to log in at once and called it a "stress test" to which most people started saying "everyday in SL is a stress test," prompting them to change the title to "log-a-thon)

this is agreat place, but it gets frustrating when you pay alot of money and are not paid attention to. I hope this thread doesnt scare you away, this could be the begininng of something very amazing and is light years ahead of other places already. you take the good with the bad. but when your issue arises and you dont get the support you expect that you are paying for, you will understand.

even us rabid complainers respect the concept and execution enough to stay, and when a bug or ghost in the machine makes things go nuts, we roll with the punches. we expect tech probs, but lack of respect/attention is starting to get some people very angry



the overwhelming majority of actual lindens (the grunts) i have dealt with i have nothing but praise for.they do thier best to help and have shown up on scene for me too many times to count and have done the best that thier tools/training allow but when things get escalated, there is some kind of disconnect/lack of respect/disdain/blame/ignoring thing that happens that culminates in the end user feeling neglected, abused, and frustrated. this can be a major detriment to SL if it gets worse

i am trying to set off red flags to let them know they are handling it the wrong way from a customers perspective. and since the customer pays the bills, that is where priority MUST lie

give more than you promise are words to live by, and some of us don't feel we are being given even what we were promised when it comes to support/and or service

it can be corrected, but the first step is addmitting there is a problem

Whole thread purpose in a nutshell there Mulch.

Although I have to admit, I will always wonder if a dual-core 3g dedicated system would be faster / more stable / run better than a 4g shared dual processor. Guess we'll never know, eh?

And I'm still pretty ticked that we had to set a dozen customers on a fact-finding quest that we/they should have never had to undertake. That info should have been provided by LL within 48 hours of request, with all the T's crossed, i's dotted-- and wrapped in a ribbon for what we pay.

Like someone accurately said, no matter how fast the servers, that's not going to correct the lack of customer support.

OK folks, off of here for tonight. Can't believe I've spent the majority of TWO DAYS dealing just with this forum. I kinda figured that would be the case, but maaaaan....

Really? I've seen quite a few instances where "server issues" are due to misconfigured/buggy software. I've even seen instances of peoples servers (hosted offsite) indicate that particular server problems are due to a problem in the software.


Huh? Windows is an OS. Apache is a server software package.


Because you're the one claiming bad performance due to changes they made. Something which contradicts their testing and stats.


Just about every tech-based company has shoddy public relations, because the public generally doesn't have an understanding of speciailized sectors of technology. Unlike companies like AMD which generally deal with other technology firms or tech-minded people, LL deals with the public being their clients, and this inherently creates a communications and understanding barrier that is not easilly overcome.

Kitty, I was just about to log off when I saw your post, so decided to respond real quick. In your message, you interestingly chose to quote only part of my original statement. The full statement was, and I QUOTE:



Seems like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Next time you decide to blow smoke up my hiney, you might want to pick something less obvious.

Same for the remainder of the message. No need for me to reply there. Niters.

Okay, if you want me to make an anecdote for every sentence... I have seen people that maintain servers (both the software and hardware) describe a server as being down when just the server software isn't running. Heck, in a programming chatroom, people describe a server as being down when it quite clearly sends a page saying it's going through maintanence (indicating not only that the box is up and running, but even the software is to send out the page).

And I'm not arguing. I'm simply stating things how I've experienced them.

Good luck on that, he just comes back asking for YOUR evidence. Then if you make a good point he says that he want's to just drop it.

How else would they handle it? They (supposedly) were presented the information, but disreguarded it. Now this becomes a big thing, and before posting this, Way deletes his findings? How else would the do this if they have no information from the person that is angry about this. If I were the one to start this thread, I would have at least kept, or if I deleted it, I would have made new information.

Ciao Again Lee,

I was wondering if its possible to scan and html the testing data printouts of the comparison marks from the class II, III vs Class IV surly there was some good dope for Phil and your buyer to make the contract purchase , Also aside from the old server Island statements If my sim is running poorly I have called You or a Grid monkey online and got good response. I saw some posts of his weeks and weeks ago on his sim, Not Rocket Fuel Molecule Deceleration Science to see if his sim is running as poor as stated, Go fix the thing !!!

Unless Dnate has any objections...... whata creep

oh also is there any truth to the rumor that Way and Kriss were sharing the same Box,
hahahahaha.........omg

Waves,

God, this thread is ridiculous.

Lee works on these servers every day of his working life. He's fiddling with bits and innards that none of us have access to. He would know, above all others, if the island sims are breaking each other.

I have yet to see data from either side presented in any sort of manner (aside from vaguely-worded hyperbole), but I'm inclined to side with the lindens.

why?

because 99% of island sims don't have a problem. Because I trust them more than random private island dwellers. Because they have a TEAM of highly professional engineers and computer programmers working on the problem, on-site.

Wayfinder, et al, haven't really shown anything to convince me otherwise. Sorry. As an impartial observer (I live in a mediocre, empty mainland sim), you haven't convinced me one iota.

Show us data, or stop posting. Thanks.

LF

Almost more to be humorous at this point....any word on that shared hard drive question....?

I wanted to make one quick post this morning regarding two things. First, the continued (and bogus) claim that I haven't provided any data. This claim was made by Lee Linden (and some people chose to swallow that like bass on bait) as well as two or three other users whose posts have carried certain questionable credibility.

I will point out first of all (and again) that this is not a post about system lag. It is a post on doubled-up servers. And I certainly think I presented all data on that subject-- to the hundredths of a decimal point. On the forum post which WAS about system lag, I presented all the data anyone would expect (but as might be expected, that data was ignored there too).

As for Dnate's and other's claim that I haven't provided data... anyone who is aware of Dnate's posts on these forums will recognize that this is a continual and repetitive pattern of his: ignore or only partially understand prior posts, claim that his opponents don't provide data, and keep stating the same points over and over again when the opposition has already blown holes through his "logic" time and time again. Sorry, I can't do anything about such people. The world is made up of all kinds. In the prior message Waves summed up how visible such tactics are in one simple line.

Sorry, I don't mean personal attacks. But we're discussing business in this thread and certain people have decided to turn this into a personal attack forum, so when you throw crap into a fan and the fan is facing you... there you go.

Now, as for Lee's comments. I have to state that I am amazed at how gullible people can be. Lee accuses me of providing no data to back up my claims. Lee, should I ask Forcythia to come on this forum again (she did warn you that you don't want her to start posting here) and talk about providing Linden Lab with data? Should I have her talk about how Linden Lab treated us and our data over and over again?

People, Lee Linden is the primary concierge/customer liason for a multi-million dollar corporation. His job is to help handle problems, yes. His job is also to keep Linden Lab in a positive light.

Now, if you want to accept everything Lee Linden says, that's your choice. But in his posts on this forum, while accusing me of presenting no data, I see that in his case this is definitely true. I see no data he's presented. He in fact absolutely refused to present data when other users demanded it. All I have seen is expert corporate smoke blowing and generalized statements such as, "We ran the tests and found out there was no conflict at all"... when other experts are saying that statement tends to disagree with normal server operation and logic. And people are apparently gullible enough to swallow the corporate line.

Now Lee may be telling the truth, maybe not. From my perspective, I realize that this is the same person that told us we would have full joint management abilities when we were thinking about buying a sim (and he claims he was talking about "About Land" features? Give me a break). This is the same Lee Linden who told us that unlike mainland sims, our sim would have its own private server. This is the same person who, when our sim dropped from 350 fps to 45 fps like someone flipped a switch... told us that our CONTENT was to blame (when that content had not changed even one prim).

So folks, someone once said there's a fool born every minute. It's also a fact that while you can't fool all of the people (as some astute readers here have shown), you can fool some of the people some of the time (and in fact, some of the people all of the time).

It is one thing to be loyal. Loyalty is a good trait. It is another thing entirely to be gullible. And before folks decide to be loyal to Linden Lab and its reps and swallow everything they're told as if it's the word-o-God... I recommend people remember what it is they're being loyal to: a multimillion dollar corporation that has the primary goal of being profitable. They have investors to answer to and personal concerns for corporate wellfare. If you want to be loyal and trustful of that, that is your choice.

I wouldn't have really pointed this all out so bluntly if my basic honesty and integrity hadn't been questioned. As anyone who is a member of Elf Clan knows... honesty and integrity are built right into our charter as a requirement of all members. I am not above error. But if you decide to question my word, you'd better be standing on solid ground.

I am not sure what your question has to do with my quoted words, but they are systematically angering and ignoring their user base. Please see this:

/invalid_link.html

See also the GOM debacle, the problems in abuse reporting repeatedly hotlined, and the fact that Philip Linden himself assured us the employee manual as pertains to in world ethics has NOT been released as was promissed. I won't bring up a Linux client. Havok 2, or HTML as they have been covered (but the reason I mention this is they toot thier horn when they announce something, then hide when we ask when it will be launched. We understand that there can be probs developing and implementing that results in delays, but, seriously, this is part of the disconnect)

Ways findings were from when, April/May? How many versions have changed since then? What point would they serve NOW? He sent them when they were relevant, thos days are long gone now.

Let's examine some of the red flags in this thread alone. I don't mean to pick on Lee, but Lee has responded as the voice of LL, hence his quotes (and tone) can be interpreted as that of LL.



















Please, once again read:



I like the expertise to define the past tense linguistics of the words "have not;" that would be like debating on what the definition of "is" is.

also, direct contradiction to the above quote is this statement:




And you say we think we are getting a snowjob/runaround just because Wayfinder tells us that?




Was that a shot?



Dismissing a paying customer as "inventing ways to lose." Not cool.



Do you really wish this itemized in the way I am itemizing this thread? Such a post will not help your bottem line.



Translation: Downgrade or STFU

How about better monitoring tools for the end user?

You know, the ones Lindens use when they come in and troubleshoot a sim...



And how incorrect someone may be is not hidden by static.



Book currently in the queue of my reading list: Trust Us We're Experts

A also wanted to put togather a "montage" of Lee's quotes regarding data Wayfinder has stated in multiple threads he has submitted through proper channels to the people who can use the data, only to be told he hasn't. While I admit I have no firsthand knowledge that Wayfinder actually submitted this data, I am VERY inclined to beleive him because 1) I read his other post that was all about finding the cause and detailed steps he took to comply with the requests made of him and 2) The data from this test was captured in such a methodical way that it could be duplicated.

Since I can't debate the valididty of the data exsisting, I would just like to draw attention to the tone that Lee takes with Wayfinder, which is on topic to how a customer is treated:



If Wayfinder submitted the data, Lee, whose fault is it that you don't have it?

And if you don't have it from a LL "miscommunication," what does that say about the condescending disrespectful tone you have taken in Wayfinders long term attempts to get his sim functioning in a manner to which it is acceptable to him?


Bottom line is SL is buggy as all hell, but that is not what is endangering them, we can all live with that; we do all live with that. It is the systematic ignoring and contempt of thier user base. When a company deficates on me as a customer, they lose me to the competition. There is nothing out there YET to compare, but I stress yet.

Plus CoV is coming out soon, WoW eating into SLs base, and MMO's becoming big time mainstream, SL is jeopardizing their own long term success.

See, we can all cash out our land and tier and switch to basic for life and still log in to see friends. They are right now building the gallows for themselves and selling tickets to their own execution. So sad, but such is the importance of paying attention to the end user, especially when they are not selling a one time widget, but a tier based subscription service.



Free lifers get what they pay for, I would say $9.95 users probably get what they pay for. Beyond that, sad to say, LL is treading on thin ice.

So the data is many months old, deleted, and not posted still.

So what do the lindens have to go on to investigate your claims of substandard performance?

If you're still arguing about the semantics of "single-cpu server" vs "multi-cpu server", it's a moot point. The multi-cpu servers are faster. You're just arguing with words, with a Linden who has no power to enforce his will on the 40+ other employees of the company. he's a worker bee.

So what IS the point of this thread?

Do it in 30 pages or less, please. I don't have the attention span to read another post longer than my arm.

LF

That's rubbish. I agree with what Lee Linden said. You can't measure computing power by number of steel cases you have. If LL have got computers that pack the power of two machines into one steel case, then it's entirely fine for them to power two sims from the same steel box.

Additionally they never put under contract a specification for the machine that would run "private sims" so it's idle to demand your preferred spec here.

I think LL, by using machines with two, and now four CPUs, are using their heads. It's a smart idea as logistically it could use less rackspace than four 1U servers.

I really think anyone who feels they are being sold short in fact is lacking in understanding of how computers work. I don't think a lack of the facts is justification to complain. I think the technical things should be left to those properly qualified.

The specs of LL's servers aside, does anyone have an *actual* fault with their private sim they want to complain about?

Sorry Lordfly, but the world doesn't break down in a fast-edit MTV style you may be accustomed to. This isn't the cliff notes, this is a full blown discussion.

If your short attention span can't digest things unless they are segmented in bite size chunks, stick to the sunday funnies.

Shades of grey are harder to define than black and white. There are many facets to this thread.

It is kinda like when you stare at a random looking poster and all of a sudden the big 3-D picture emerges, and it can only be defined when the elements are combined in the correct way.



good point Lordfly, but remember this, Wayfinder doesn't need to submit data directly to you.

WTF would you do with it anyway?

Now, why Lee won't turn over data, you'll have to ask him, after all :



You get the point yet LF?

You missed a really key point.




See the differance? What Lee said is 100% right, you still have not shown him documation to the contrary. You take parts of quotes to make them seem that he lied, but when you read what he was talking about, you find that he didn't. He himself stated that there MIGHT be something from the begining. He was pushing hard to make sure that it would not say dedicated server, because they were changing over at the time. Saying that you are getting a server and it will reside on a dedicated server are two diffenent things.

At the time of the May 2003 press release, it was correct. They where dedicated servers. Times have changed. They don't say that. Can you show one example besides that one press release from 2 years ago that LL says you will have a dedicated server?

Data, no data, whatever. I would guess that LL can only hold on to so much data at a time. With the amount of mail they get every day, it is really surprising that they don't have some e-mail with data the was sent to them months ago?

If I tell LL the sky is purple with green strips, does that make it true? I am a paying customer.

What is rubbish about that staement? Please submit data to support your "rubbish claims."



I am inclined to beleive you if everything works the way it is intended to. The problem is 1) the tone that is being taken towards an end user and 2) the unwillingness to support claims of a miracle cure with any facts, or, as has been overused, data



And the only people who should worry about politics are politicians, and the only people who should be able to review movies are actors and directors, and the only people to critique food should be chefs...

right



that would be off topic, but Wayfinder has, David has, but more on topic would be should LL be obscuring or hiding technical info on a highly interactive technical platform?