Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

We've shown plenty of proof Nimrod. But it's obvious you aren't interested in proof, because you've chosen to ignore everything that's been presented so far. You want to cop and attitude and throw tantrums, go ahead. Not impressed. You want to bring valid points to the table, you're welcome as everyone. But just spouting off "Lee's right and you're wrong" with accompanying vendictives registers just about 0 on the "valid points" scale. And it would register the same if you were arguing for our "side". No one appreciates such attitudes.

Billy, read the above message to Nimrod. Your attitude doesn't impress me one bit. I see kids (and even computer programmers) throw tantrums all the time. I don't rely on them for valid opinions or data.

We'll respect you as much as you respect us, and thus far, that's been zip.

But all the myth still exists. Yes Wayfinder i heard it too from other sim owners i talked to before i bought my sim that they also *****assumed***** their own sim was on a lone server for a island. So it wasn't just you who heard it as so when i inquired about a sim, i rather ask a sim owner himself inquiring.....

I wondering where this thread is eventually going to go to. Its starting to get personal here quite a bit. Sim owner or not here it seems apparent to me sim owners get no respect for their investment in their sim. Man it matters not for whatever reason a person own their sim. Every sim adds to SL map and in its various content. Wayfinder seems no matter what point your attempt or try to make good or not Linden won't listen. Linden not at Home even if they watching. I haven't own my sim long enough to assess all its performance or question its performance even better yet.

But all the myth still exists. Yes Wayfinder i heard it too from other sim owners i talked to before i bought my sim that they also assumed their own sim was on a lone server for a island. So it wasn't just you who heard it as so when i inquired about a sim, i rather ask a sim owner himself inquiring. Just so linden not blowing me no smoke about what i may be getting or not. However Wayfinder it seems even as you balk at linden in protest right or wrong Linden aren't gona concede either way. Some wars you can't win no matter how hard you fight it out, you don't have to win the war. But you just got to win the Battle that counts. I'm not sure what it is or will be for the sim owners. Best way i see it its like taking on the big government. Up hill battle. Just not enough other sim owners here to voice their concern either. Linden needs to do a better job communicating the issues, no matter if its sim performance, lag or other sim issues. Sim owners are major clients, but sim owners get no respect from linden right or wrong it seems. Sorry to say it seem like a loosing battle in as the thread goes on. Just got to find another way to knock down linden door for them to listen. Thats my 2 common sense.

who's been neg rated to the gills as you say? Not i You cant even get that right and all you have to do is go to the find menu and type in my name. Damn guy your killing me with this lack of information. You make me smile though, i wish i could give you a hug. If you want to start slandering me by calling me names we can play it will be fun. wanna?

In the future advanced users, teams of players, or software developers will be able to lease "Private Islands" within the Second Life world. Each of these 16 acre islands will reside on a dedicated server capable of supporting large development projects, themed communities, or specialized game experiences.

This sounds a lot like the sales pitch being made at that time included the idea that a private island would be run an a dedicated server.

Please don't alter the old press release, it's part of history.

From everyone I have spoken with that own sims, believe the $1,250 payment goes into buying equipment for a dedicated server. People on the main grid also believe that each sim is on a dedicated server.

This is from people who have computer 'smarts'.

So somehow Linden Labs is 'crossing beams' with the people who write their checks.

Ciao Lee,
** these new servers**

how does the server timing improve the packet crashing and and firing sequence, seems this is a non RIAD network so same bus router motherboards means two dump trucks trying to get on a bike path at the same time.......

Wayfinder, i think you need to go on your way and find something else to bitch about..

Im not impressed with your attitude either, in my book a liar is about the lowest form of life coming only second to a theif. You can kill my family and i would look at you the same way i would look at a liar.. if you cant trust someone what do you have?

You keep sticking to your guns, just bow and say you were wrong i mean what do you want them to do? send you one of their servers to your house and let you run test on it?

Get real, take some medication, masturbait, get laid.. do whatever you have to do to take your mind off of trying to paint a horrid picture of someone stealing your money or something and do something actually productive.. like logging off the forums.

What would you prefer:

1) Dedicated server that performs poorly because that's all LL can afford to buy?
2) Dedicated cpu that performs really well?

(NOTE: The following interviews were conducted with full knowledge of the people involved. They are reprinted here with their permission. Some slight editing has been performed to place comments in a presentable basis, while fully retaining intent of the reponses).

Question: Did Linden Lab at any time ask your permission to place your sim on the same server as another sim?
April: No not at all
Question: Did Linden Lab ever inform you that your sim had been placed on the same server as another sim?
April: One time a call them about in june or july and the sim crashed and i was told that the sims was being shared and i ask why was that . and that not what i paid for. So they said sim did not like it so they would correct and leave it to run by itself
Question: So they told you your sim would be returned to a single server. Is your sim on a single, dedicated server now?
April: Im really not sure. for what you told me the other day. its being shared with ginko sim
Question: That is correct. One last question: What is your opinion of this matter? Do you feel that Linden Lab has acted properly in these things?
April: I feel like i have been mislead
---------------------------
David: well..I was pissed when i found out [our sim] is sharing on a dual processor server
David: because she paids to have her own server
David: I didn't buy this sim, but it's always been my understanding that each private sim has it's own server and LL has said as much quite a few times
David: I know what [partner] paid for the sim, and what she pays each month, and it's certainly enough to have her own server
David: what happens if both the sims on a single server have alot of traffic one day, both have good events..?
David: They both slow to a crawl
David: If LL thinks a dual processor server can do the work of two single processor servers, they are sorely mistaken
David: and why does LL switch them without asking or informing?
David: Not a good way to treat great customers
David: [my partner] is a bulldog when it comes to the sim's performace..she hunts down active scripts, listeners, etc...
David Valentino: so we definitely know something is up when performace drops drastically
David Valentino: I've been to functuioning events with 65+ people
David Valentino: we hit 20 or so and things get real funky
David Valentino: I don't understsnd..for what private sim owners pay
---------------------------
Question: When you purchased ElvenGlen and Elf Haven, what were you told by Linden Lab regarding server allocation?
Forcythia: I understood that each of my sims would have it's own server.
Question: Did Linden Lab at any time inform you that your sims were to share servers with other sims?
Forcythia: Definitely not!
Question: Did Linden Lab ever tell you that they never place two sims on the same server?
Forcythia Wishbringer: I don't think that question came up, I was satisfied hearing that I would have my own server.
I expected them to live up to their end of that bargain.
---------------------------
[As presenter of this post and to be fair, I answer my own questions]:
Question: When you purchased ElvenGlen and Elf Haven, what were you told by Linden Lab regarding server allocation?
Wayfinder: We were told that private sims were placed on dedicated servers and run much faster than mainland sims.
Question: Did Linden Lab ever request your permission to share servers with another sim?
Wayfinder: No
Question: Did Linden Lab ever inform you that your sims had been placed on a server with another sim?
Wayfinder: No, just the opposite. When we asked about this due to data pointing to that fact, they denied that our sim shared servers with other sims. We were told the only circumstance under which such a thing would happen would be in an emergency when someone else's server shut down, and that that situation would only last until they could set up another server and correct the problem. We were told that was rare.
---------------------------
(end of interviews)

FACTS:
849 sims examined
374 sims were DOUBLE stacked (44.05%)
57 sims were TRIPLE stacked (6.71%)
64 sims QUAD stacked (7.53%)-- This appears to reflect "void" sims. However, on examination, it seems that in some instances two void sims are stacked on two active sims. How much this affects sim performance is unknown.

Total SL sims sharing servers with other sims: 495
---------------------------
THE DISCOVERY

Oct 9/10, 2005, ElvenGlen sim experienced a significant drop in speed-- lag so bad that although there were only 5 avatars on the sim... it was like walking through molasses. When sim speed was checked, Sim FPS had dropped to 10, and Run Tasks ms had jumped from 1.8 to 16-- an extremely high figure.

Sim owners searched for a half hour trying to find the cause, and could find nothing. At that time, we contacted Linden Lab and spoke with a Linden on duty. During the course of this conversation, it was discovered that ElvenGlen had been "assigned to the wrong server" and was sharing a server with two other sims (a transcript exists of this conversation). Because of forum rules prohibiting replication of IM conversations here, we can only paraphrase Linden Lab's side of the conversation. ElvenGlen's side is replicated en total, by permission.

EG: We were of the impression that each sim has its own server. Are you saying that servers are running 2 sims?
(LL replies that some servers are fast enough to do this)
EG: But it's not what we pay for
EG: We pay for one sim, one server
(LL responds that this practice is carried out on most servers, and claims that there is no deterioration of performance because their servers are dual-core).
EG: I know about dual core. We are not paying to share computers between sims.
(LL claims that such is faster than the old region/server ratio)
EG: LL charges $1200 to set up a sim, supposedly on its own server
EG: Dual core is fast (I own one), but the idea is to make sims faster, not to allow LL to double up servers.

========================================

As the owners of ElvenGlen, we were very upset by this information. Why? Because for MONTHS we have been trying to track down causes of "lag", and found no perceivable cause on our sim. We often described the matter to LL as "someone flipping a switch"... causing our sim to lag excessivly. We were told by LL over and over that the problem was NOT server side, that it was our content, our textures, our scripting... although none of these things had changed. We cut content, cut scripting, and the problems still remained. Constant data readings we took correlated NO content/client side cause with lag incidents. Every claim LL made was unsupported by data; in fact all of our data conflicted LL claims.

We spent untold hours (weeks.. months?) trying to track down these lag problems-- only to find that Linden Lab had been withholding one vital piece of information: SIMS SHARE SERVERS.

Following the above conversation, we contacted Linden Lab, and was told that under no circumstance did Linden Lab stack sims "on the same CPU" (interesting wording, since "CPU" is a multi-definition term). Regardless of that wording, one thing must be clearly understood:

*** We were SPECIFICALLY requesting of Linden Lab as to whether our sim shared a server with another sim, and we were specifically told that no, it did not. *** Regardless of word definitions or specific grammatical constructs, that was the issue at hand. We asked Linden Lab if our sim shared a server with another sim, and we were told no, it did not.

In light of the above conversation, we decided to determine the truth of the matter.



THE PROJECT
===========
We called for volunteers from Elf Clan to help us verify server use. These volunteers spent TWO DAYS going to every sim on the grid that we had time to reach, and copying down sim names, server numbers and IP addresses. Although we did not have the time/resources to check every single sim, we were able to examine 849 of them-- a high majority sample.

After compilation and data analysis, the results were astounding:

849 sims examined
374 sims DOUBLE stacked (44.05%)
57 sims TRIPLE stacked (6.71%)
64 sims QUAD stacked (7.53%)-- This appears to reflect "void" sims. However, on examination, it seems that two void sims are sometimes stacked on two active sims. How much this affects sim performance is unknown.

SUMMARY--TOTAL SIMS SHARING SERVERS WITH ONE OR MORE OTHER SIMS: 495 (58.29%)


THE CONFRONTATION
=================
We approached Linden Lab again regarding this matter.. LindenLab continued to maintain that sims do not share servers under any circumstance. So we presented our data findings. After pressing the matter and speaking to a tech employee, we were told that "server" isn't an accurate term. They do share SERVERS. But each server is 'a double processor server and fast enough to handle the load'.

We presented LL with questions. What kind of "double processor" server? Does it share ram banks? Does it share bus structure, internet bandwidth, HARD DRIVE access? Linden Lab could not come up with immediate answers to these questions (not even the "tech" we were speaking to).

At that time I specifically requested the following information:
* Server brand name, model number and configuration
* Average cost of a server

I was told that this information would be found and they would forward it to me. As of this writing this information has not been provided.

DISCOVERY #2
============
When we searched through the data, we discovered that our sim, ElvenGlen, was sharing a server with EATON. Those who are acquainted with Eaton know that it has been the #1 traffic sim on SL almost since its inception. 24/7 tringo games, massive shopping malls, casinos, nightclubs. We are good friends with the owners of Eaton. Wayfinder designed their kickboxing arena and the game itself. So we know Eaton. It lags like a fiend. And THAT is the sim ElvenGlen had been sharing servers with! As the owner of Eaton humorously said when this information was presented to him: "I wouldn't want to share a server with me."

Further, we made some additional tests. We discovered (from what we can discern) that the RUN TIME ms reading that appears in the statistics box, is apparently not a rating of individual sim content as we had been told by LL... but is instead a rating of total server activity. This went a long way toward explaining why it is that this figure would jump from low to high for no explainable reason. This was most upsetting, because we had been lead to believe (directly told, actually) by LL that Run Tasks ms was the most accurate reading of our specific sim performance. Yet now, we discover that our sim was obviously being directly influenced by the other sim(s) sharing our server-- and that, despite claims to the contrary, what happens on one of those sims can and does directly affect other sims on the same server. (Linden Lab has continued to deny these findings, claiming that their tests prove that doubling up sims on a server does not affect individual sim performance. We have reason to question their data analysis).

We have spent MONTHS trying to trace these problems down. That entire time, LL absolutely denied that sims used shared servers. They kept blaming lag on "user content"... despite our constant data readings indicating that such claims were not correct.

THE DATA
========
As an example...
When we first built ElvenGlen, we had 750 active scripts on our sim-- an amount most people would say is excessive. As widespread as this belief is however, it appears to be an old wives tale. Yes, certain types of active scripts CAN and DO lag sims(as AO devices aptly prove). But standard scripts such as doors, chairs, many types of particles, etc... those are part of everyday SL life. The fact that active scripts are not absolutely responsible for sim lag was established when we visited one sim with 1,500+ *active* scripts... yet boasted an FPS of 3,600 with zero perceivable lag!

WE DECIDE TO ESTABLISH THE FACTS
================================
To prove our point, we reduced active scripts on ElvenGlen from 750 down to about 480. Result: there was NO PERCEIVABLE DIFFERENCE IN SIM SPEED as a result. So we intentionally increased our active scripts by 180... and SIM SPEED ACTUALLY INCREASED over the span of a few days. Conclusion: the scripts on our sim had no discernable effect on overall sim performance. These findings have been verified by other sim owners who have run their own tests and come to similar conclusions.

At one time, a Linden recommended that we try shutting off script operation on the sim. So we did. The results: sim performance did not significantly change. The Linden at that time said, "Hmm.... I'll check into that and get back with you." Despite reminders, we did not hear further on that result.

THE PROBLEM
===========
The fact that we had to run such tests, over and over, based on claims that LL was making-- while they withheld the vital piece of information that SIMS ARE DOUBLE-STACKED ON SERVERS-- did not make us happy campers.

We have been told that server doubling has been discussed on the forums. However, has been estimated on these forums that only 10% of SL users ever visit the forums. We ourselves do not have the time to read every forum post that appears on the web (because of this, a copy of this article is going to be sent by volunteers directly to SL sim owners).

When we have a problem that arises with our sim, we expect straight answers to straight questions. We do not expect to be told things that are not true, nor have vital information withheld. When we are told that "Linden Lab never puts two sims on the same server"... that is what we expect to be the case.

Has Linden Lab deceived its clients, misused payments, provided misinformation? Linden Lab claims that apparently this is a matter of miscommunication/misunderstanding. What they MEANT to say is that two sims are never on the same CPU. (However, we note the above figures, which shows that claim to apparently be incorrect... to the tune of some 51 sims).

We make no claims at this time. We will note, as did David above, that dual-processor servers are NOT the same as two separate servers. We will note that LL recently raised its server setup price from $900 to $1,200-- ostensibly to pay for more expensive, more powerful servers. We note that we were TOLD that two sims never share a server. Those are the facts. We ourselves make no claims, no direct accusations. It is not our position to act as judge and jury. We are presenting the raw data for your examination, as well as recount of our experiences in these matters.

We will say this: Elf Clan did not pay Linden Lab almost $3,000 to set us up on shared servers. We do not pay some $600 a month to operate on shared servers. We were not AWARE that we were running on shared servers and in fact had been told that we were NOT on shared servers, that lag problems were caused by client content and were not server oriented. We were told this over and over again, despite all data to the contrary.

FACT: we can't get 20 avs on a sim without having it lag significantly, nor 40 without it lagging to a standstill. So we have to ask: how is it that a "dual processor server can handle the load of two sims"? This obviously is not the case.

We'll leave this with a comment made during a sim-owner conversation:
"My guess is that Linden Lab simply doesn't have enough private sim owners yet to double-stack all existing servers. And that eventually, they'll reach the 100% point unless it's stopped."

We report these facts and let the association of sim owners make whatever decisions deemed proper.

--o--

* PS-- advance note to LL groupies: We did not present this data to start yet another endless and useless debate with you. The purpose if this post is to inform sim owners of LL activities and the disposition of their sims and funds. We simply present the facts; if some users choose to discard or ignore these facts, that is your decision. We're conducting business here. Were have no desire to waste our time arguing personal perceptions of computer philosophy.