Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

First i'm a sim owner and i happen to stumble on this post. This is a good thread to read!!. Good drama here, yet i don't like drama. Hey this thread is needed. I'm not taking sides as some of this post is more technical that i am and aware of. But i understand much of the thread here all the same.

Wayfinder did a great job of addressing this issue for sim owners and sim performances. Linden did a great job in stepping up and answering much of the points raised at begining of this thread. But i'm not taking no sides! I say i'm a new sim owner here so that is known. But i guess i can still learn a bit here for whats been posted, addressed and replied back to in thread.

As a sim owner or any sim owner or if your a multiple sim owner (Kudos) that is here in SL is a major land owner and prime account holder to Linden and on the sim grid. These are all concerns that linden need need to address seriously to their sim owners or make them aware of. After all i'm not paying for land teir on some small plot of land here. I'm paying for a prime piece of the grid and much of it, even if its still a island and its sim performance. When i pony up my $1200 + to pay for a sim and my own sim and all to get it up and running, i'm paying for performance too for my sim! And when i'm paying $195 per month for my sim fee every month i got a right to care about my sim performance and Yes even question my sim performance if it aren't performing as it should. And be suspicious too. I got a right to question Linden about my sim performance for i'm paying my bill to linden for my sim and linden need to give me a good answer as to why my sim aren't performing if it aren't as it should and they need to give me a good answer and no run around. So kudos to Lee Linden too for addressing some of the points that was raised by Wayfinder, for he had some guts to do some work to question various sims performance or raise the issue to linden. But i'm taking no sides here!. I'm not all technical here either. I'm paying for my sim, i pay my sim bill, so do other sim owners, we pay for sim performance too and we pay a fair share of linden bills. So linden need to answer when issues like this as Wayfinder has brought up.

Anyone want to run a test on a sim, any sim or my new island sim to test your theory of suspision of servers can contact me inworld. I have no problem with that, for if i'm been duped dam it i want to know too. Someone has to keep eye on linden too. Do anyone keep eye on government? I never seen my island server, never will i know. I only have linden word as they may tell me. Hell it was my belief my island had its own dedicated server too, maybe i was duped in my belief too, i heard it from a bird i guess. I had no idea i was only on a CPU. You think Linden would tell the sim owners. I don't know sound like government to me it seems. By the way does anyone ever gets performance reports regularly on their sim various performance? You would think for the fee we pay Linden sends us a sim report so we know sim performance. I guess the need for suspicion.

LOL I've noticed that myself Elror. Dunno why. I suspect sometimes it's caused by someone else posting a note a microsecond before you do, but not fast enough to beat you as you return to the forum page.... but like you, I've actually noticed forum messages switching cue after the fact. Keeps life interesting, I guess.

Buy the way major reason i bought my sim other than needing land. Maybe its a myth. But i heard it from many sources and even major sim owners i talked to all believed their islands sim was on their own dedicated server!. So are we all duped in some way here. Linden need to state and clarify all this so new simowners know exactly what they paying for.

[Edit: I see I've missed an entire post answering my prior questions.]

I have to respond to this.

Aetius, I think you said as much in your common-sense end-user post as anything I've presented here. You cut to the heart of the matter: those paying the bills have a right to answers. Wanted to at least acknowledge your post. That's what I've been trying to say all along and maybe it just got obscured in all the details.

Lee thank you. Acknowledged. But I'm past this stage.

You have already done as much I think, under the current situation, as can be done. You have moved us to sharing a server with a very-low lag sim. The sim owner contacted me today, and their activities are at totally opposite times as ours, so we should at least be more compatible.

I think if you visit our sim yourself you will see how the sim is performing. That's not data I need to provide. Leave it where it is until we have further information. As I very clearly stated in a prior response-- I do not have the data required to decide which server would best suit our needs. So just leave it where it is and conduct whatever test you folks deem necessary to answer these issues.

Not a prob. I wondered... been there, done that.

Well, I'm sitting here, and suddenly of course, the lightning bolt strikes.

The primary question is not, "How well is your sim performing?"

The question is, "How well would it perform if it had it's own high-level server?" In other words, if our sim was on a dual-processor or dual-core server with a gig of memory, its own dedicated ram, hard drive, network portal etc etc... how much faster would it perform than it is now?

I *know* LL can't do that for every sim. That would be unreasonable to ask. But it is a valid question that reflects directly on the issue at hand. As several users have pointed out, sim owners have been under the impression (however they got there) that their sims would operate on dedicated single "fast", "double processor" (or dual core or whatever) servers. That impression is there for some reason. So if it came down to someone really complaining and wanting fulfillment of promise, would there be any valid reason for making such a request?

I think that is the question I'm curious about. Would our 400 fps suddenly jump to 650 fps? Would we be able to adequately host 40 avs instead of 20 avs? Or if not, would it at least retain steady speed under normal load rather than constant fluxuations?

Valid questions, I think.

Hey Wayfinder appreciate the fact that you acknowledged my post. Thanks!!

I'm technical guy, but not all this server stuff technical. I'm common sense guy and need common sense information.

The point is SIM Island owners or multiple owners pay huge fee to own Islands, and we pay huge fee monthly to own and keep our islands. Now i'n sure no mistake linden heard that or Lee Linden did. So Wayfinder thats the issue addressed there. Thanks again. Now if a sim owner who PAYS LINDEN BILLS have a issue. Linden needs to listen, take issue and fix problem. Yeah Linden owns platform for SL. But i'm common sense guy. I know who pays my sim bills. I DO. And if i fail to pay my Sim bill, Linden don't waste no time in making me aware i failed to pay my bill or bill not processed. Maybe thats a technical issue. So if i a sim owner have a issue Lee and everyone at Linden need to take note and take care, fix or reslove sim owner problem including sim performance or lag. Now common sense aren't so common. I'm not going to say who's missing it here, you reader figure it out yourself.

If i'm paying my SIM Bill. Linden needs to keep me Happy. And if that means good sim performance. Wait a minute, i thought i had a missing server, oh it was a myth. Linden please fix that myth. Wayfinder you manage three sims. Hey if i was linden i would pay you much attention, but so too to all other sim owners also. And Linden never sent me no performance report on my sim. I'm wondering do i have to go out and investigate my sim performance when i'm suspicious too. Hey maybe im stupid to ask, oh it was my common sense but why don't linden send us sim performance report of their own running data so we could look at it our selves. Might help to know how to read it too.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. No one is saying when you buy a private sim, you buy the hardware. They are saying that they were under the impression and underdstanding that their sim would be on a dedicated server.





I'm sure with your experience with servers that you are well aware of the fact that a dual CPU server doesn't do the work of two single CPU servers. A standard performance increase figure for many functions with a dual CPU server over a single CPU server is about 30%, which is a great boon if handling alot of data. But it's certainly not equivelent to two single CPU servers.

And most folks know what "lag" is. It's signs are easy to recognize, particularly when you have 20+ people trying to move, sit, dance, change clothes, etc. A purchased sim should be able to handle 20 people at an event at one time. A purchased sim should be able to handle 40 people doing those things.

Sure, scripts, textures, objects, etc can effect a sims performance drastically, but speaking from experience, even when chasing down those lag-inducing items, our sim performance has become increasingly unpredicatable, with increasingly poor performance even with a relatively light load of avatars.

Sometimes it's great...it's true. And sometimes it's horrible. With no changes to the structures or scripts involved and with about the same number of avatars on it. One possible reason could be the load of the other sim(s) it's sharing a server with. We haven't had a chance to test this theory, but it seems very possible. Why else would we go from 300fps to 5fps and from freely moving, fun events to people shouting in frustration that they can hardly move?




Good and consistant performance of sims. No one wants to come to events that are lag fests and travel through sims that are frustratingly hard to move about in.

Perhaps a performance monitor that spots slow sim performance that can get a response from LL. Perhaps tied to the concierge service?

I know the isle of Bliss is certainly not packed with lag-inducing scripts and textures, so why is the performance so inconsistant?

I'm sorry people have the wrong impression. I'm still looking (and asking) for the place where we actually say that. If that misconception never came from us--if our documentation and what we have said is correct--there's not much I can do short of (as here) correct everyone every time someone causes others to believe that's the case. When I'm in trouble for claims we didn't make, my options are limited.



Still looking for this post as well. I'm fairly confident (hopefully not misplaced) that we didn't indicate that was the sole, or even primary, cause for the price increase. I believe one of the primary ideas was to make it clear that the Estate tools and additional support private islands receive is a benefit above and beyond the purchase of a $1000 mainland sim.


Not to be a broken record, but again, we don't say that.


Yes, I'm not sure, yes, and a very firm NO (that never seems to come across in conversation).


I can ask, but I'm not sure what response I'll get. If you don't have your original data, I can't make a strong case that their firsthand experience with the equipment they bought, and the code they wrote, and the content they tested, is wrong, especially when the majority of our high-content sims day after day live happily with one another.



The way I understand our infrastructure, these two are not cause/effect the way you describe them.


It's hard not to use "lag", isn't it? "When it's laggy everyone lags" is hard to diagnose.

This one alone, depending on who reports it, could be 1) Very low client framerate, 2) Latency in the network connection, 3) a slow sim. I never get any more information (other than "everyone's seeing it" and thus can't narrow any of the options down with no data.

To get anywhere with "lag" complaints, I need to know:
A) The explicit act or series of operations that is not performing as desired.
Even I can't walk is better than the often-heard It's slow.
B) In as much detail as possible, what happens instead of the desired act or operation.
E.g.: When I try to walk forward, it takes several seconds to start moving. Then, when I let go, it won't stop moving for several seconds.
C) Based on this information, I'll want to know several settings in the Statistics menu. This will invariably be ones the resident did not monitor while experiencing lag. In some unfortunate scenarios, I'll need to scan several at once to see which one changes the most.

These steps are just for me to know what on earth the person is actually talking about, and what part of Second Life I can tell an engineer might be misbehaving.

I never say that our stuff is certainly not misbehaving, but I'm frequently told the resident's content, guests, home computer, etc. can do no wrong. It's a difficult part of the job working with someone who insists their content is a non-factor but gets upset when we honestly can't find a server-related cause.



I've been trying to provide the right answers ever since the day you misheard my statement that you'd have access to the About Land tools as a promise that you'd have total control of the island. Even as the questions show disbelief about what I've already said, I've answered them.



Your statements in the past week have been that multiple sims on one server, with one sim per CPU, both hinders sim performance and breaks some contract we've made in the past. I'm not sure how else I can explain that both are severe misconceptions.


I'm not sure where the subject lies. Are you seeking to end the discussion regarding whether or not we fufilling our duty regarding hardware and performance? Or are you seeking to end the discussion about whether or not we're communicating openly? As I said, I'm sorry you've had so many misconceptions, but I'm still lost on the part where Linden misrepresented something. This is not deception, it's miscommunication. That's a good sight removed from misrepresentation, and I can't stress the difference enough.


A lot of folks think that because you've said as much.


It's not factual. Your posts literally represent it as such. So yes, to that extent, I'm trying to prove you wrong. Unfortunately, your primary claims lie with data you've deleted, and there's only so many hours a day I can commit to explaining to you, and explaining to people who have talked to you and want to know why I lied to them because you told them I did.


... I have no idea what this means.


You deleted the data so I can't analyze it to say whether or not it's correct. I can't even say whether it's complete, whether you were researching the right statistics, or whether you were missing crucial data that explains the situation in a manner that does not support your claim. And yet, the data you can't show anyone is the cornerstone of your argument. In the meantime, there's 1000 sims online that say you're wrong about cross-sim performance, that it's not a cause, and that no one can actually tell whether their neighbor is busy or not. So, what more can I say?

Way, there's nothing that you're going to say that is going to convince Lee, and many others that your "deleted" data is factual. Lee also made many great points about the sim, and for some reason you won't accept them. Have you taken your meds today? I guess since Lee can't say it, I will....

Lee, I do want to make it clear that Wayfinder and I have discussed this issue for hours. He knows my feelings and has reflected them on this forum, and believe me, you do not want me to start posting.

Forcythia Wishbringer

And yeah, I'm sure you could rip me up because I don't own an island and don't pay the tier for one, but that's not the point, Lee is trying to give you straight answers and you don't want to accept them.

Start posting? Why don't you start posting so he *DOES* know how you feel, andhelp you get the real facts straight? I don't see why you posted that thread, what do you want him to say?

Lee, thanks for that detailed and lengthy response. I know that your time is not your own and it's what... 7pm there now? So regardless of our differences and my responses below, I appreciate that.



Lee, not to directly contradict... but obviously LL does, in some form or another. Because if you didn't tell people that, it follows that there would not be so many under that belief. But even more importantly, since I have myself been told that exactly and precisely, even in the face of direct questions to LL... then I am telling you directly.. YES, we ARE told that. Beyond that, it's the word of LL against me and other users in this thread who have echoed that same statement. So this is not a matter of you saying something repeatedly and your clients not listenting. We are talking to you, and LINDEN LAB is not listening.

So as one businessman to another (and please-- pardon the bluntness): Apparently LL has a misinformation problem. I'd recommend stop making excuses and trashcan the denials-- and fix it so it doesn't happen again. And while you're at it, be stand up and fix it with your current clients as well. It is pretty obvious that at the very least, a LL apology is in order.




And here is the major contradiction in facts Lee. You answered yes, sims do share bus lines and network access, but no, no conceivable instance in which sims could butt heads. And you don't know about the hard drives (to be honest... that's an important piece of information that if you're going to debate this issue as a representative of LL-- you need to know).

I'm not really going to do this myself. Is there anyone else out there who wants to point up the falicies of this argument? I'm just going to sit back on this one and watch. LOL



Now see... here's another one of those statements that one just has to wonder about.

How do we know this? A large number of the sims on SL are vast mainland areas where no one ever visits except to shop or say, "Oh, that's interesting". Who is it that keeps track on all those sims? I think it is fair to say that for the most part, it's the private sims that are checked with a fine tooth comb every day. The club sims don't complain because they know exactly where their lag comes from-- the vast amounts of bling & AO devices present on their property. So cut out the clubs and shopping malls and other things which we take for granted lag-- and what do you have that constitutes a "majority of high-content sims"?

And as I have pointed out, ElvenGlen usually runs within acceptable tolerances. That doesn't mean it's running as well as it could if it had its own high-level dedicated server. Which again-- is the issue here-- not sim lag. This thread has NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG ISSUES. It has to do with LL being straight with sim owners-- especially when we request specific information in regard to factors that could directly influence our sims.



Yup, and I fully appreciate and sympathize with those things. However, to be frank, in the past when we HAVE provided LL with such information IN GREAT DETAIL... we have been told the problem was with content on our sim. We were told this when data was sitting right in Linden hands proving that statement to be false. So after a while of that-- people lose desire to talk data with LL and just start quoting past findings and present findings. So I fully agree with what you say above... and would like to see it actually implemented-- then that data paid attention to with an open mind and the customer kept in the information cue.




Lee... I'm going to respond to this straight, no punch pulled, but with all respect.
We didn't mishear anything. You yourself, to our face, told Forcythia and I directly that both of us would have full management tools on a private sim. You may have MEANT "About Land tools"... but that is not what you said.

We both had full access to About Land tools on even the tiniest plot of land... so how should that be any different on a private sim? And why would we conceivably take you to mean About Land tools under such circumstance?

No Lee, you told us, point blank that we would both have full access to sim management tools and although we didn't even know the term "Estate Tools" yet.. that is what we were discussing. Enhanced tools that control an entire sim at once, not just a small plot of land. And I remember telling you that first day our land was open that we were unhappy about both of us not having such tools-- because I was to be the sim manager. And your response was that this would very likely be fixed in v 1.6 which was due out very shortly... which was the ONLY reason we accepted delivery of our sim. And then when 1.6 came out and we STILL did not have those tools, I specifically remember Forcythia and I both telling you personally that if we had known that would be the case, we would not have accepted delivery on the sim and that we would have requested refund of our setup fees. Of course by then ElvenGlen was already built and ready for its grand opening. A little too late at that point.

Now, I think I can understand what happens. We're working with only 3 sims. We can remember the details of what happened where. You're concierge for 900+ sims. Man, I sympathize. How can you possibly keep track of all that? (Well, my solution would be to keep a detailed file on every single sim). And why you don't have 10 people helping you... (and bless Cyn, 'cause the lady has been more help to us than I can recount. Just a shame she came so late in the game. Still, a move in the right direction, and kudos).

So with all that going on Lee, how can we expect you to remember everything that goes on in every sim? It's humanly impossible for anyone with less than a photographic memory.

But I am telling point blank: the above account is exactly how it happened. And that's the facts, ma'am.




I know the difference. And I perceive the difference. And it ceases being miscommunication when the company is informed miscommunication has occurred-- and continues with the same methods of communication. That's when it becomes deception.

It also becomes deception when something is stated that is not correct from the word go. At that point, the question comes: did the person know the truth, or were they mistaken? In some cases of our dealings with LL, we do not believe the communications have been a mistake. All humans have a certain second sense about when they're being buffaloed... some to a more or less degree than others. My BS sensitivity is high.



I knew this would be your response to this Lee, so here's my response:
1. Why didn't Linden Lab pay attention to that data when it was first presented. It was valid, it was lengthy, it was detailed. Why did you choose to ignore a client presenting hard-fact data to you in attempt to debug sim problems? I have to wonder about that.

2. Why doesn't Linden Lab still have a copy of that data. We sent it. You apparently deleted it. So why does it surprise you that after having our data ignored time and time again by Linden Lab, we decided to delete it ourself as a wasted effort?

3. Nevertheless, our arguments are NOT without verifiable data. That data exists in part on other forum posts (as I have already pointed out) and can be immediately ascertained by simply visiting our sim NOW. Because if you do, you will discover that despite all current content-- the same content OR EVEN MORE than existed 5 months ago-- our sim is operating fairly well a majority of the time. (note I say FAIRLY WELL.. not "optimal capacity". Logical conclusion: If content were responsible for lag, we would lag all the time. We don't. Therefore, Linden Lab claims of content responsibility rather than server side problems (at least in the case of our sim) are invalid. When our sim lags inexplicably-- it is NOT due to content. (We are able to check, yknow).

So just how much more "data" does Linden Lab need to recognize these facts?
Sorry to be so straight forward. LL had the chance to handle this while pussyfooting was still an option, and LL ignored us.



No Lee. A lot of folks think that because YOU'VE said as much. (edit: ie, Linden Lab and its representatives-- including the concierge). And that's what LL has to get through it's thick skull. It's something I've told you time and time again relating to tech, but equally applicable to customer relations:

"The problem is not client side. It's server side."

I thought the private islands had their own servers too, know why? It's not beacuse I heard Lindens say it, it's because I assumed that it looked seperate from the grid and other sims, that it WAS seperate, but my assumptions are wrong. I'm not mad, but you shouldn't assume. I'm not saying that you assumed that, I'm just wondering why you have nothing (at least, not much) to back up your statements.

"A lot of folks think that because YOU'VE said as much." Where did you see this at? Maybe he worded it wrong during a conversation? I sure hope that if you're going to pay $1,200USD that you do a little more researching than just talking to one Linden and not other Island owners to see if they're satisified. If they are satisfied, do you really think it's worth this debate? If they aren't maybe they should have a private conversation with a Linden.

I'm suprised this thread made up of an imaginary debate started by you, Wayfinder, isn't locked.

Nimrod, appreciate your feelings in this. Valid posts. But all you're doing is spouting your opinions. Nothing more. Support Lee all you want. Doesn't really have much affect on those who have done the work and conducted the research.

Prove it. I just don't understand why someone who did so much research would just delete it, then post a big agrument on the forums about it.

Ciao Lee,
** these new servers**

how does the server timing improve the packet crashing and and firing sequence, seems this is a non RIAD network so same bus router motherboards means two dump trucks trying to get on a bike path at the same time....... might have two or four OS copys running but only one BUS going into a std I/O 10/100 cat port . piggybacked OS copys can only equate to mega packet loss witch inturn means what the end user calls lag, not really lag the data never made it and had to be resent. Most data is taken at the desktop with some form of Testing OS , I hate you guys.. you get all the flashy stuff up front and forget about us little network guys, we try and keep res down you give us NOOOO money for faster switches routers cables even our port connectors are only plated metal.
WE WANT RESPECT WE WANT MAINFRAM...... all this sphaghetti has got to go.

Remember aliens I when they saw all the egg pods for the first time ? I wonder what LL's server room looks like ??
Post a pic 50,000 of us now surly someone can come up with some funny shit to say about it, oh bth my sim ( Sakai ) is running really crappy latly can you hook a brother up !

-Waves

Nimrod, before you post any further, let me say this:

There's a difference between debating a subject and being obnoxoius. And you're being obnoxious. I'm not here to debate your personal opinions. I'm interested in fact. And you can stand there all day and obnoxiously spout how wrong you think we are-- and that won't mean a hill of beans because you're bringing nothing to this conversation but attitude.

We'll respect you as much as you respect us, and thus far, that's been zip.

Nope, he's too busy discussing tech stuff with Way, since way won't drop the issue.

Well good, so are we, and so far, you haven't shown any proof of your facts.

wayfinder you are killing me, before i went and posted all of this and tried to make a huge conspirecy i would have most likely researched a little more, and if i still had this problem i would drop my islands like a bad habit. I think wayfinder is taking misinformation and passing it out like candy. So maybe i can help him? Here are some new things to ping LL about..

The server killed my kitten
The duel server thingy's stole my grandmothers social security checks
LL has pillaged my entire village and taken my girlfriend from me
Lee linden threw a penny at me and hurt me

And some justifications for where this information came from that you cannot produce so ill give you some places that you can say it came from:

A scripted cardboard cutout of lee linden in the welcome area told me.
I read it in a magazine
The all famous and often over used in RL saying: I saw it on the discovery channel
And the second most used: It was on CNN a few months ago
My momma told me

Wayfinder, i would give up your quest for misinfo asap its getting funny to me because i know better, Think about the guy that doesnt know anything? Also I know if this was RL and you were spreading these false rumors and misinformed representations of my bussiness i wouldnt have even responded to your first post, i would have turned it over to one of my legal rep's.

We've shown plenty of proof Nimrod. But it's obvious you aren't interested in proof, because you've chosen to ignore everything that's been presented so far. You want to cop and attitude and throw tantrums, go ahead. Not impressed. You want to bring valid points to the table, you're welcome as everyone. But just spouting off "Lee's right and you're wrong" with accompanying vendictives registers just about 0 on the "valid points" scale. And it would register the same if you were arguing for our "side". No one appreciates such attitudes.