Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

It seems obvious at this point that a forum thread isn't getting people the answers they want.

We'll be hosting a Concierge Q&A session to help people get the actual answers regarding our hardware and server software. So far we have Daniel and Ian Linden confirmed to attend. Dates and times will be sent to private island owners.

I'm still willing to answer questions, but not in this thread.

Dnate, this is really the only part of your message I read, because it was the last line and kinda caught my attention.

If you, as a paying customer, tell LL that the sky is purple with green strips, true or not they at least need to check into the matter. And if it does happen to be purple with green strips, and 15 people are standing there seeing the same thing, then I wouldn't expect LL to stand there and say, "Do you have your video drivers installed properly?"

Because if they said something such as that, I'd just be honor-bound to point out that, hey, 15 users are standing here from different parts of the country seeing the same thing.

Then if LL said, "Our data on this side says that's not true".... well, that's when I start questioning my next month's payment to Linden Lab.

Of course, although LL asks us to be patient and let them iron out the bugs and "wait for 1.7" (all chant the mantra)... if your payment next month is missing, you WILL lose your lands.

This is business Dnate. A business that charges professional fees. So if they have a client tell them the sky looks funny... they owe it to that client to check into the matter asap-- and with all due respect.

LOL Lordfly. I did chuckle at this one. Can't argue with honesty.

Actually though, that is what would happen. As I've stated, we discarded that data long ago. Now a bunch of clowns keep harping on that, but the fact is that we did the work, we did have the data, we did turn it in to Linden Lab, and when they kept ignoring it month after month after month, we discarded it as a useless endeavor (as indeed, it proved to be). Why should we even imagine that we would need that data later, because as Mulch pointed out, over several months the entire system changes and data becomes pretty much invalid anyway.

Now one brilliant mind here suggested we do the data all over again. Thank you very much, no, been there, done that, had no success and I'm not going to spend weeks more doing sim analysis just so a bunch of self-important people can, as you said above.... ogle at it and make asinine comments. (no personal slam intended-- present company excluded). We did the work. No one else did. So to put it plainly: these people's comments are less than worthless. They are personal opinions, conjectures, and to be honest-- such gullibility is sure to serve them throughout their life in parting with their money and future.



No, in my personal opinion, just a little too self-assured and a little too quick to discard other people's findings for a chance to be humorously snide. Which really... isn't needed here in this post.

You want to accept LL claims that doubling up sims on servers is faster... go ahead. That's all we have so far is claims. They *might even be right*. If so, that's terrific.

Doesn't change at all the way they treat their clients. Doesn't change at all that more than a dozen people had to spend 2 days tracing down information that LL should have provided in a heartbeat (and could have provided if they'd have felt inclined). Doesn't change a thing about the FACTS we've pointed out time and time again about LL dealings with us in the past (you know folks, sometimes facts are not accompanied by "data".... they're just facts. You don't think so? I can give you examples if you need).

So I think what a lot of folks need to do is, as Mulch nicely described, get their heads out of their uh... posteriors... and realize what is being discussed here in this thread is NOT data and lag or server speed. It is Linden Lab claims to customers and Linden Lab treatment of customers.

And if anyone still doesn't get that... then rather than me questioning your computer knowledge-- that person needs to question his attitude and common sense. And if that attitude is one of conceit or just trying to get a rise out of people...then please take it elsewhere.

(again, present company excluded)

See, this is what I'm not understanding. Though it is a great idea for the short immediate term, these Q&A Sessions just like the Town Halls, a transcript will probably be written up as to what was said & that will be the 'current' source of information.

For the "Long Term" affect & to avoid the, (I don't know how you obtain this information mentality) goes, a Policy & Procedure would be a great idea. Again, I think this is a great step in showing the effort for the short term, but a long term affect is needed for the entire Second Life structure not just for this issue.

Yes I know Lee, you have no say in this type of situation, just a suggestion to throw around the office there to the right folks on your team is all I'm saying.

This will more then likely cause a confusion later on when future residents comes across these things & not see a followup in writting as to what is "CURRENTLY" the process/policy/procedure. Resident's will ask questions, this will be brought up all over again just like a slew of other recycled threads in these forums goes. A simple concerete, dated, signed & delivered document saying for a particular project, As of whatever date....this is what's happening.

Not a press release, Town Hall / Q&A Session transcript, hearsay, etc. Pointing to these sources later as a reference is a tad bit tacky considering all this "metaverse" talk going on.

Thanks for the effort, thought I might as well throw in my .02 cents since this Q&A will probably be during my work hours.

Flipper, pardon me for pointing this out, but your suggestion above is ludicrous. Beyond ludicrous into PLAID, dude.

This is what I mean about people posting stuff just to be posting. This is supposed to be helpful or valid, Flip?

Someone is supposed to totally wipe all the hard-built content on their sim and rebuild it one prim at a time to see if content affects lag? When everyone already knows that yes, AS WE HAVE STATED BEFORE... *all* content affects system operation to some extent. DUH.

And we're supposed to do this just to satisfy folk who make posts like you made here? Nah, I don't think so Tim.

Now... how about a HELPFUL solution. Why don't you do what we did. Put content on a sim. Make sure that content stays exactly the same over a period of days. Don't add anything. Don't take away anything. Watch sim stats and see if they remain stable.

Then...what conclusion do you come to when you discover that sim stats are all over the board, with no pattern, at various times of the day? What does that tell you Flipper?

According to what Linden Lab determined, "Too much content." And that's when I shook my head and realized I was possibly dealing with a bunch of lunkheads. It also told me that there were things going on server side which were not being revealed.

I have to believe at this point that if folks don't understand or believe these simple concepts-- it's because they don't WANT to accept facts that disagree with their pre-formed opinoins. And I can't do anything about that-- nor am I required to.

I suppose I now have my answer, my 'simple question', whether it has technological merit or not, will not be answered here.
I would like to also point out that I'll not be included in that Q&A session, if it, as Lee has stated, will include private sim owners only, as I'm a mainland sim owner. Though again, I think a standard of naming exactly what is what would clear up that.
However, I am gladdened that a forum will be given for the parties originally involved in this 'debate' to have their questions answered. Kudos to LL and Lee specifically for answereing those questions here that he was able to answer.
To answer other questions, I will utilize my option to call the Concierge number, and I do know I'll most likely have my question answered. However, I doubt anyone would fail to see the underlying point to having said question answered publicly here. Unfortunately, I can't post a question, and haven't been able to do so for months in the Hotline Forum, for some strange reason, and this has been reported to LL, so hopefully this will also be addressed soon.

Wayfarer,

When I bought my island, I specifically asked whether it would be dedicated. The concierge response was very full and clear...

"We have taken considerable measures to ensure proper performance of the hardware itself. Our servers provide a dedicated CPU for each region, and your island is locked to the specific type of hardware it came online on. While it may move from machine to machine (for example, to come online quickly if its original host crashes), it will always be on a server with the exact same hardware specifications."

...so the "deal" was plain as day to me, and I went ahead in full knowledge.

Later in that same post...

"Your order has been placed in the queue of pending islands. If you reply and approve your island purchase, our islands team should have it online for you within the next few days. We will wait for confirmation since you voiced concerns about our hardware performance."

I thought that was excellent customer service in that the island was scheduled to avoid additional delay *and* I was given the opportunity to opt-out if I was not happy with the answer given.

Reading through the whole of this thread has changed nothing of my personal opinions. For me, the misunderstandings that people have about this whole issue seem to be just that.

Don't get me wrong. I respect your right to state your opinions too. I'm not looking for a fight but just explaining that not all island owners feel in the least bit "duped", and actually are most happy with the service provided by LL.

/esc

Mulch, when I was in college and taking a business marketing and psychology course, we studied the use of propaganda techniques-- mainly so we could watch out for them and make sure they're not being pulled on us.

People use these methods every day. Present obscure generalities that appeal to the emotions. Deny responsibility. Reverse blame onto the victim. Deny existence (as in, "We never said that". Ignore facts and obscure presented data. And of course... discredit your opponents.

Businesses intentionally use these things every day. And I've seen a lot of it in LL posts-- intentional or not, who's to know. The fact that propaganda exists-- indicates that it works. People swallow propaganda all the time. They read and do not question. They trust without questioning. And that is how the really stupid things that happen in the world keep going on. That's how scientists can warn everyone about global warning and people just ignore them-- because people in general are taken in by government propaganda that global warning is still decades off-- regardless of what the facts say. And the government of course, accuses the scientists of not having enough data. Right. So now scientists are telling us that global warming is actually starting to happen. The ice caps are melting. Hurricanes are increasing. Earthquakes are increasing. And do people believe them still? No, for the most part, people still swallow the propaganda-- and ignore the observable evidence.

Now I remember an announcement that I think was made by Philip Linden trying to justify their increase for setting up a sim from $900 to $1200. One of the reasons given was that 'we now offer sim owners more tools than we used to, so that justifies an increase in setup fees.' (paraphrased. I think someone placed the exact quote somewhere in this thread).

Now, a lot of people said, "Oh, of course. That makes sense." My impression was IDIOTS! SUCKERS! Durn, how gullible.

1. What does "increased sim tools" have anything to do with SETUP fees? Those tools are going to increase the cost of a server or setup time? I don't think so. They slam those tools on a hard drive, duplicate that hard drive every time someone buys a sim, spend an hour or so setting up sim specs and BAM. It's set up. That has NOTHING to do with increased sim tools. We pay for SIM TOOLS in the $195 fee we send to Linden Lab every month, month after month. And I've surely seen no sim tools worth increasing that charge. Which brings us to...

2. WHAT SIM TOOLS? Are they discussing Estate Tools? Because I have to tell you, I'm not impressed! The estate tools are minimal and clunky and inefficient. There's not even a provision for more than one person to use those estate tools. They're about as efficient as the LAND EDITING tools that everyone complains about. Half-baked and poorly designed. And for this we justify a 33% sim setup increase?

No, when they then stated that setup fees are to cover the increased cost of new, faster equipment... that I could accept. Don't know whether it's true or not... but at the very least it's more appealing propaganda. LOL.

But then when I ask Linden Lab to present me with the manufacturer/model numbers/stats/price on the standard currently-used high level server which supposedly costs these extra fees-- that information was not provided. And since we're the ones paying the fees... that is just bottom-line unprofessional at best. And at that point, the client cannot help but start wondering about intent.

And that's the facts folks. No data even needed.

So if someone decides to become all huffy and "you don't have any basis for your claims" or spout other such nonsense on here, know this: we're not questioning our findings. We KNOW what our findings state. We're to the point of questioning the company. And we're not getting anything back but Lee Linden's personal statements totally unsupported by the facts that we already have, and remain unsupported by data that we have requested.

And at this point, I would frankly now question the validity of any data they may decide to provide. The trust is broken.

Erelas, thanks for continuing to ask that question. Repetitive, yes. Necessary... absolutely.

I don't care how fast a server is... an undiscovered bottleneck can mess up the works (as we HAVE seen in the past on Second Life... more than once). Some people are paid high salaries for finding and eliminating server bottlenecks. Lee has already stated that servers share ram banks (bottleneck). It shares the same network access line (bottleneck). It shares the same bus (bottleneck). (if I got any of that wrong, let me know. It's all starting to fuzz up... LOL). He doesn't know about hard drive (potential bottleneck). Possibly the majority of sim processing is kept within RAM (makes sense to me. But what about that which isn't? I mean, it's not ram that is transferred when the system crashes and has to be restarted, is it?).

So hard drive... definite bottleneck factor-- especially in the case of a shared server.

I'm not saying these things ARE bottlenecks. Like you, I'm questioning the blank carge-blanche statement that two sims can inhabit the same server and have no effect whatsoever on one another... because that just defies all computer logic unless the system designer and network administrator are very, very sharp and ALL the T's are crossed.

OK, Erelas, you and Mulch cut it out. I'm spewing Ramain noodles and it's messing up my video screen.

I guess what we're learning here is that you always have choices.

I've never purchased a island because it hasn't yet fit my parameters. It seems that effort is being made to clarify the situation, but again - you have the choice to believe it or not. If you choose not to believe the only people who can give you the right answers, does this mean you'll be selling your island at a deep discount?

Perhaps my parameters can be met, after all. Let me know what your price may be, I'd be curious. Sans content, of course - I prefer my own constructs.

Thanks.

Travis, I fully agree with your statement about squeaking with a smile. In fact, I try to maintain such a philosophy in my life... but unfortunately that's not always easy-- nor visible by the time it gets to the forums.

I've worked extensively in customer support myself, so I know exactly what you mean. Clients can be a real pain-- and I will be the first to admit: the customer is not always right. But in some industries (such as with god-complex doctors), that's what one takes on when one enters the business. LL took this on when they decided to direct-host computer services.

We have tried in the past to deal with LL in a friendly, open manner, smiling all the way. That stopped when they cost us dozens (hundreds?) of man-hours hunting down bogus bugs only to discover they had been withholding vital information-- and continued to do so even when we discovered the facts.

Our smile ended when Lee Linden on both this forum and others denied that we had presented data to Linden Lab. When he told us things that were in direct conflict with hard-core data that we had already spent weeks collecting. When he refused to provide reasonable information that we requested (such as, "how are hard drives set up on the servers? Do the sims share the same hard drive? Now there's a hard question for a computer company to answer).

So yes, there is a hard hitting tone on this forum, and I regret it. But I also regret the disrespect that has been shown to us as clients. A person's patience only goes so far. When a company tends to disregard customer needs, they have a right to expect the steam kettle to eventually blow.

Wayfinder,

Now you confused me... since it's quite simple to my view...

- If the level of service is not sufficient - stop paying.

- If the product was misrepresented - demand a refund.

However, I suspect that deep down you feel that the xxx bucks a month IS worth it. Or you would have done one of the above already.

So.... is what is going on here really that you just want more value for the same money...

?

Sorry you left Elf Clan... but you surely said nothing about this to us. Is that how you handle situations Garnet? If you found these things objectionable... why did you not come to us? You appeared to find these things valid at the time the research was initiated. If afterward you found them not so... didn't you feel honor-bound to inform us of those facts?

What we discussed with our task members, and what we publicly claim to others once the research is done (such as intentional fraud and possible repercussions) is two different things. We were letting our task members know what all this MIGHT entail once this data was obtained and deeper information discovered. We didn't want anyone to enter this blindly. We wanted our researchers to know that we were indeed at "war" with Linden Lab... because they were obviously withholding information from us that deserved an answer.

Now, sorry that offended you personally. I have to wonder why you came to believe after our fact finding mission that we were "mistaken"... because our data exposed exactly what we believed it would expose-- that Linden Lab WAS stacking the majority of the sims on SL on shared servers and many if not the majority of sim owners were unaware of that fact. As for why we didn't contact Philip Linden-- we had evidence that LL was intentionally withholding information from us and yes-- we suspected fraud. Such instances require public notice... not providing LL with additional opportunity to supress that information (not that I am saying they would have).

What we DID do was go to our concierge and reveal our findings and we asked for further clarification. Despite her best attempts-- that further clarification was not forthcoming (such as our requests for specific server configuration-- especially in regard to hard drives). Additional statements by LL on another forum thread caused us to decide to take these matters to the forums. You question the honor of this Garnet-- as far as I can see, we dealt honorably every step of the way... including alerting LL to our findings before posting them here. How much more would you expect of us?

If you felt we were "bullying" Linden Lab, you're entitled to your opinion. Sorry you feel that way. You try paying a company $10,000 a year and be treated as LL has treated us and other clients... and see what you consider bullying.

Garnet, any time you look at something from a one sided standpoint and fail to go to the people whom you question, you're asking to be mislead. You should have come to us with your misgivings so that we could have discussed these things with you. If you then felt the same way, then just maybe:

1) You might have helped to shed light on something that might have altered our posts here
2) You might have changed your mind and realized that maybe the information you had been provided by whomever it was you talked to may not be exactly kosher or

... no telling what else. Sorry we had to learn about your experiences in this matter on the forum, but the fact that you made your decisions without coming to us and without our being in any way aware of it tells me you made the right decision in leaving the Clan... because family members discuss things.

Again, sorry you had a problem with all this. You should have said something.

Seconded.

OK, I'm going to say it now... Aliasi has one of the kewlest personal icons I've seen in these forums.

Wish we could say that contacting concierge helps in such matter (and yes, I too have had trouble using the hotline). Unfortunately, it was the Concierge office that provided us with the "information" we have acquired these past few months. One person there has been VERY helpful recently with sim problems and has treated us with respect (and kudos to you Cyn!). But unfortunately, there's only so much a concierge can do in system-deep matters.

Hopefully, the town hall meeting will answer some things. Maybe. We had to have a forum like this to get such questions answered? Well, if that's what it takes, then there's the answer to the folks who've questioned why we have to bring such things to the forums.

Based on what I've seen at past town hall meetings, I'm not sure we'll get straight answers even there. Not sure I really even want to further waste my time. After spending 3 more days of my time on this stuff, getting kinda fed up with it all, frankly. sigh

It's pretty sad when a blatant truth is presented and folks still don't get it. Thank goodness for the handful that do.

I'm pleased you've had good experiences with your land and had delivered what you expected. I appreciate your post and best wishes!

I suggested you talk to Philip, you refused. I felt you were going the wrong way. You'd made up your mind, how was I going to stop you? I had no obligation to you from then on.



You said it was too late to talk to them, and I disagree about the way you conducted this matter.



No, I felt you were bullying members of Elf Clan. You told me you expected us all to support you. No question, if I understood you correctly. I couldn't do that.



Pot, Kettle, Black about coming to the forum. And what discussion did Elf Clan members get? What information were we given or any time at all before being summoned and sent out immediately to do your legwork?

I don't think I have any more to say on this matter.

Escort, you'd have to read back a few pages to the "why did you buy additional sims" to fully grasp the situation.

If someone sells you a different car than you thought you were purchasing, you still have to get to work. Your family still relies on that transportation.

People buy cars they wind up not liking every day. And may of those cars were sold by merchants who misrepresented their product. Don't blame the victim.

Had to address this Garnet. This is not truthful. To my memory I don't ever recall telling Elf Clan members they HAVE to do anything involving such weighty matters. In fact, I specifically remember in our meeting telling members this was a totally volunteer matter and that if they didn't want to be involved in this, they could bow out "without prejudice"-- and those were my exact words. Not one person left.

Out of all the people who conducted this research, you are the only one who has voiced any dissatisfaction in the way it was handled (although I'll state at this point, if here are any others I'd like them to contact me so I can hear their complaints and opinions. Our charter itself states we will honor member opinions should they come to us with a problem).

But everyone who has conducted this research and learned the findings was as shocked as we were. And we DID tell folks the possible outcome of this research.

You knew what was involved. You took part. You didn't come to us with any additional data other than your opinion that we should notify Philip regarding this information. If you gained pertinent information from someone else, you did not bring that information to us. And I was not aware that you left the group. So, what can I say Garnet? You're an adult and entitled to make your own decisions.

Sorry you don't like the way we've handled this-- but we're the sim owners not you. You're not paying the bills. And again... you didn't come to us.

That's not what I said at all! I just said that something - or some combination or things - are causing this sim to lag, and I doubt its the server the sim is running on. Having a full simulator and keeping it running smoothly and without server-side lag takes a combination skill, experience and vigilance. That's why I'm such a fascist up north in Indigo! We manage to have rich content, but by always keeping an eye on efficiency, we've managed to be lag free for almost two years now. When we have problems, we investigate, find the culprit, and remove or fix it.

As for the claim of "the exact same content on a sim over a span of two days", I say there has NEVER been a sim with the same exact content on it for two days that I've ever seen on the main grid. The avatar in the sim typically has something different from the previous day; a box may have been rez'd. Unless you're telling me that this sim had NO avatars entering it, no scripts inside it changing states, etc, which I highly doubt is the case. Sims are never exactly the same once they contain content and avatars.

A script could take no resources one day, and due to the way its scripted, be a resource hog the next, even when the code within the script does not change. An avatar in the sim can have different attachments with different scripts within them. My point here is that something - or some combination - of Wayfinder's content are almost definitely the culprit, and when called on this fact, he's lashing out at LL. My recommended test method would go to show whether the culprit is LL's server, or Wayfinder's content.

I'm not saying LL's perfect, but I trust their technical expertise over that of the typical resident, or even typically tech-savvy resident.

Regards,

-Flip

Once again, you didn't read my post. I suggested to delete all the content, and then have the Linden present RESTORE IT to its pre-deleted state. So you'll be exactly where you were before the deletion, but have you answer on whether the problem is with (a) LL's server or (b) your content.

Once that basic question is solved, we can move forward with suggestions on how to fix. I do call that a helpful suggestion because it gets beyond all this silly bickering. DUH.

Regards,

-Flip

So what was the resolution of all this?

Thanks, Way.

To be honest, though, I think that Lee is ultimately right. This doesn't mean LL is totally in the clear, IMO... because our current tools to diagnose what content might be causing lag are... not good, to say the least.