Sim Owners Take Note-- Your Sims Are Sharing Servers

No, LL changed the timing of the way scripts and others run. This changes how content is run on a machine. So it is fixing content.



Partical lag is all client side, and even with 1.7, particals will lag the local machine. AO's and the like are CONTENT. So it is the content that is lagging the sim. You admit to that yourself. It is not server issues, it is content using more then it should. You would also make the claim that if you hosted a web site, and someone did a DoS on your page, causing the server to crash, then it is the hosters fault for not having the safegaurds in place? That is basicly what you are saying. Even in 1.7 you can lag a server by asking too much of it.

nevermind..lol

don't know why I gave into the urge to post again.

Next time it runs slowly, send me an IM

One thing you will notice if you do this however, is that there is a *decided* attitude when we do find problems, that we are going to *HELP* LL diagnose it... I do the best I can to work with Lee, find out what information i need to provide in order for them to understand what i am seeing, properly, and effectively respond.

There have been frustrating times, and there have been statements made that were later shown to be false, but they were not *MALICIOUSLY* so, not ever. It was merely LL saying what they thought was the case and in general, us providing sufficient, solid, and reasonable proof that there was something deeper going on.

I have specifically over the last 2 years combatted three seperate simulator performance issues with LL and each of those three issues in the end, did result in a better, stronger, and faster SL for everyone.

That was my intent, not to cause trouble, or make accusations or stand out and 'demand' things... i was motivated by concern and a desire to help, not anger and self-importance. If more people went with that mind-set, threads like this would not happen.

what *ALL* of you who are venting in this thread need to do is stop, recollect yerselves, and *ASK* lee, 'if we believe there is something else going on, *WHAT INFO* do we need to gather, and how would you want us to do so, in order to help you address our concerns, and help us understand what to do.

and if and/or when someone *from* LL responds, you need to actually *LISTEN* to them, and begin to work with what they say.

If there are still looming server performance issues in 1.7 when it comes up, LL *WANTS* to find them, and solve them, and help all SL run better, *YOU* want them found, and solved, and SL to run better, ALL of you, i'm assuming. Thats not red vs blue thats one goal, one 'side' to be on... work *WITH* LL, help us all help SL get better

eltee, I totally agree with your post-- in theory. Is it a utopian theory however?

I think so. As has been stated in this thread (and others, by other users)... people try to work with LL all the time. But in just this thread alone, we have found:

* LL providing us information we later learn to be false.
* LL blatantly refusing to provide answers to simple questions asked by paying clients
* LL literally blaming the clients for system problems (over and over and over)
* LL failing/refusing to communicate with clients over server issues
* LL making claims contrary to existing data and established computer concepts
* LL showing a lack of co-operation of any kind when users state they need something

Now, I will admit, there appear to be a lot of things coming out in 1.7 that seem to address some of these things. So apparently someone is listening somewhere.

However, that said, it does no good to listen to what the client is saying-- while at the same time arguing with and blaming the clients for the problems.

They tell us that "too many active scripts" lag a sim. But do they give us tools to locate active scripts? I mean good tools-- a list of every active script on the sim, where it is, who owns it and how much overall time it's requiring. Don't tell us scripts are the problem-- then give us no way to locate scripts (and nothing personal-- but I havent seen a script finder tool in all of SL that even comes close to meeting the need). If Linden Lab wants us to "work with them"... they need to give us the tools to do so. Otherwise, clients are going to come to them with problems and then when those problems do not go away-- clients are going to come to them with complaints.

That's how busienss works eltee.

So all this about being nine-nice and working with Linden Lab is great in theory-- but when a company acts as users in this thread have pointed out that they act-- a theory is all it is. Eventually, people reach a point of frustration and the kid gloves come off.

We'll remind again-- the clients are paying the bills. We are not answerable to Linden Lab. It works the other way.

If Linden Lab wants clients to work with their company-- they need to start working with us. Provide us the tools we need. Listen to problems and FIX them.

LL blames clients for content. Gives us no tools to measure/handle that content.

LL makes it illegal to shoot other users outside battlezones. Then they allow weapons to work outside battlezones. Question: Why is there no built-in limitation on push weapons? Why does LL even allow people to build weapons that can push hard enough to knock someone offline? WAKE UP PEOPLE!

We're allowed 15000 prims on a private sim and we're told to keep our prim count down as low as possible to reduce lag. But then they allow individual avatars to walk around wearing 400+ prims, hoochie hair and high-lag AO devices.

Even after someone took out Ahern WA... apparently no one saw fit to eliminate security hole... and yesterday someone takes down the whole grid. Now how smart is that?

Solution: stop blaming clients because you don't have system safeguards and governors in place. Do the job. You want clients to work with you-- take the first step.

I have never seen LL actively give out an answer they *KNEW* was false at the time. That is saying alot. There have been things we have shown/proven were not entirely true, but its not that LL *LIED*

the initial sim hardware debacle... we found out some very very real results contrary to the 'at the time' LL statement 'all sim hardware runs the same'. It was frustrating with that... because no, in actuality all the hardware was not running the same...

the thing is it was a funny little quirk in the older systems that was causing the problem... not that LL was maliciously lying about it, they *THOUGHT* and fairly common sensically that since the whole cpu spread at the time was within 10% that overall SL would basically run the same on everything. But this turned out not to be the case, there were other architecture issues going on they hadn't forseen that caused these problems.

Once we worked *WITH* LL to establish that these problems, were, actual honest to god, fact... LL immediately went essentially 'ooh crap' and went back and performed similar tests themselves, and did indeed see exactly what we had said and they did host a townhall specifically geared towards addressing it.

Had we done what most of you have done and just kept shouting, and never listening, those problems, that were solved a year ago, could *VERY WELL* still be here today.

I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate grievance... i'm saying in life, there are times when no matter how legitimate a grievance or hurt you have, the best way to solve the problem is to *not* just fall into 'expounding' its impact on you and reveling in it, but rather to put *THAT* aside, and to work with the people you need to, in order to get the actual problem, that is hurting you, solved.

So how long are clients supposed to keep beating their heads against brick walls before they finally wake up and say, "Hey... I'm beating my head against a brick wall."

We (and many other users) approached LL with these problems months ago. Some serious problems have been around for more than a year. These problems still exist. So just how long are we supposed to keep paying the bills and putting up with this and "working with LL"... before we are to expect some results?

No, sorry. I understand what you're saying. But there comes a time when one has to shout in order to be heard by otherwise deaf ears.

you have the 'answer' you very intially got back: 'there are too many active scripts running'

well you know what, that MIGHT BE TRUE... especially once 1.7 launches you are *really* going to see the true number of active scripts, 1.6 and earlier were not that good at reporting them.

now okay lets assume that there are two cases based on this statement: it is either 'in the end' true or 'in the end' false.. In *either* case, we do need better tools to help run our sims well

and that should probably be your *primary* argument.. not 'll is lying to us' or 'we pay LL so they have to answer to our every beck and call', but rather 'LL is telling us we are lagging our own sims, but we do not have any *good* way of determining WHAT is causing it, or how to go about fixing it, we need better script/usage tools, please!' and build an argument around that.

I will get behind you there, thats a *REAL* and very legitimate point.

now, back to the two cases

in the case that you really are lagging your sim. what you need, is better help understanding how, and those better tools to help diagnose that on yer own, and go about fixing it.

in the case that your content is *NOT* the primary cause of the behavior, you have a very clear, and succint thing you need to do.. you need to ask LL 'if you say it is just our content, and we say there is something else going on... what do we need to do, to help make our case... what piece of data, if you did see it from us, would show you there might be something else going on?'

mabye it will be specifically asking to have your sim re-classified (on a temporary basis) to several different sims of known different hardware. LL *CAN* do that if you are willing to give them the time to take a look into it, using images of your sim on other, testing grids that they have.

mabye it will be that you will need to lock your sim down for a day

and ensure that no one comes in or does anything and take specific mesaurements, of specific metrics, with screen captures, aka with *LITERALLY* no user/content load change, for 24 hours, does the sim's performance visibly change, if so mebbe that would be something that could support your case.


mabye there are even other things as well you can do...

This forum thread, and others like it, though, are *NOT* the 'solution' that are just you shouting and last time i checked, 'shouting at someone' was not really an effective way to resolve problems 'business world' or real world.

If you are reading this thread, and you are an island owner, then you may wish to vote in the following poll:

/111/53/67365/1.html

eltee... everything that you suggested here... AS WE HAVE ALREADY STATED here and in other threads... was tried.

And we've already posted Linden Lab response: It's your content.

Even when were were standing there with proof in our hands it was not.

So please, nothing personal really, but this is elementary. Been there, done that, waaaaay past that stage.

You treat us like we're brainless morons who don't know how to evaluate computer performance. I appreciate the concept of working with people. But such concepts have limits eltee. Anyone who continues to try to work with someone who has proven unresponsive is just spinning his wheels. There ARE times in life you pull out the big stick.

I'm sorry you don't like that we finally had to take this to the forums. I'm sorry we finally had to take this step too. How much nicer if some simple customer service had been applied in the first place.

Now, forgive if I don't reply to further such posts. You've made these arguements multitudinous times before, we've answered them, you keep making them. Again, we're paying the bills. So unless you're willing to cough up the $600 a month payments for us... we're not asking your advice on how to run our sims or how we handle dealings with Linden Lab.

you have never provided any usable 'proof' anywhere in any thread i have seen.

the best you have done is 'he said she said' 'this sim looks busier an runs better' or 'this one looks emptier an runs worse'

that doesn *MEAN* anything, many many people have told you many many times already that this does not constitute any semblance of 'proof' about any of your problems.

look back at what i said, lock your sim down for a day, 24 hours so only you may go in

take snapshots of the sim stats bar, every hour, for those 24 hours (or at least as many of them as you can manage, what with sleeping and work etc), and see if there is a major change in performance at some point that cannot be so 'easily' accounted for by your own content.

don't 'say' that you did, do it, post the actual screen captures of those results, mebbe even graph it if you want to take the time.


the other suggestion is abit harder since it would need some *voluntary* LL involvement and you've been working on burning that bridge for quite a while now. *if* however you are listened to, and knowing LL you probably will be, and you make an honest plea, please, here, take my sim content, please, and run it on each of the classes of sims, is there any difference? is there anything going on? chances are pretty good someone will take the time to do that..

and looking back it sounds like they *HAVE* and what they found was not very helpful to you, because it appeared to vindicate their initial assumptions, not yours...

that does mean however you have the responsibility to rethink your overal position and mind-set... is it possible they are right, that what you think is going on, simply is not the case, if its *not* then what else could it be? there may be something else entirely out there causing yer problems.

You claim to own a company and you claim to know a whole lot about business... thats really great for you, display some of the leadership here that you assumably have there, and some of the wisdom as well. Your concerns will be addressed but you *HAVE* to be accepting of the possibility that they are not going to be *vindicated* because there is at least some small chance that you are wrong.

Or, eltee... I can just put you on my ignore list as yet another person who's so fond of his own voice he totally ignores everything else. Yup, good decision. Man, you just totally ignored everything I just said and went on yet another eltee tirade. Bye.

ya might's well just put lee on yer ignore list too, cause frankly you listen to him about as well as you do anyone and everyone else who has the 'audacity' to dare suggest you might be out of line

i shouldn't care, honestly, i shouldn't keep trying to help you, help yourself, because honestly, you aren't 'entitled' to help, and you've shown on *SO* many occasions how little you deserve it

As a last note from me in this forum, because things are pretty much winding down...

There have been several users here who seem to insist on getting off of forum topic and repeatedly making claims that were groundless to start with and have been answered more than once. Despite this, these users continue to make the same repetitious claims, ignoring all evidence to the contrary. Such activities offer no benefit. The purpose of this thread is to establish factual information regarding the operations of LL and presentations made to clients.

The facts are:

* We came to these forums stating that LL is stacking sims on shared servers. We stated that many (most?) sim owners are totally unaware of this because we were told by LL that we were being provided dedicated servers.

* LL responded, claiming that no statement was ever made that private sims were on dedicated servers.

* Users responded with an old press release stating that private lands were indeed on dedicated servers.

* LL responded that while they were aware of those old press releases, that had nothing to do with current policies.

* Users responded that since those current policies had never been publicly issued, they had reason to believe the initial release was still in effect and that LL employees were still stating that dedicated servers were used for private sims.

* LL again responded that it had not been specifically stated that dedicated servers were used on private sims.

* Users then posted current LL website marketing stating specifically that dedicated servers are used on private land-- thus proving the basis theme of this forum thread.

* Users questioned dual-processor servers sharing resources-- such sharing possibly having an effect on sim performance (ie, sister sims affecting the performance of one another).

* LL responded that shared resources are shared very little (ie, 'the system hardly ever accesses the hard drive'). It also claimed that in tests they performed, sister sims never affected the performance of one another.

* Citing basic computer operational theory, users requested specific server information (including several requests specific to how many hard drives are on a single server) and challenged the claim that shared resources do not slow down sim performance.

* LL refused to comment further.

These are the facts. The following are also facts:

* This is not a thread about "lag". That subject was pretty much exhausted in a thread entitled THE LAG MONSTER MYTHS... and has nothing to do with this thread. This thread deals with the issue of misrepresentation of server allocation and resultant effects upon sim performance.

* It has been repeatedly charged that "no data has been presented" supporting this thread. This claim can be discredited by simply reading the first post on this thread.

* Regarding those who continue to insist on dragging this thread back to the LAG MONSTER MYTHS... one must question motives and objectivity.

* For those who continually challenge others to perform extensive tests and present additional 'data' while at the same time ignoring data already presented I have this statement: Do it yourself; we have no obligation to you.

The initial charges of this forum thread have been presented, proven, established. What individual users decide to do about these facts is their individual/collective decision. It is not our responsiblity to respond to troll posts nor to those who continually ignore existing evidence while repeatedly making the same baseless claims over and over again. We have established what we set out to establish-- that clients have been mislead by LL regarding services provided. Beyond that, we make no claims nor have further obligation.

The word server should be used carefully. Consider a 1U rack server, the Apache HTTP server and the MySQL RDBMS (Relational DataBase Management Server). All these are servers, but two are just software.

For my streaming service ( http://www.jddlan.com/streaming.php - I'm so commercial ) I give each customer their own shoutcast server, which means a copy of shoutcast is running, which is solely for the use of that customer. I do not however provide each £5 a month customer with their own 1U rack server. At a cost of over $3,000 to purchase, just imagine how long it'd take to break even!

LL said private islands get their own server. I believe they are fulfilling that promise. They never actually said you get your own computer. They said server.

This statement has already been issued and met. Please read prior posts. To claim that a "server" deals totally with software exclusive of hardware is a misapplication of the term and has nothing to do with claims/representations that LL made to clients.

It has been proven from their own website that they did indeed state clients would have their own server; there would be no reason to expect clients to believe that this would refer to a piece of software. The context and claims made by LL obviously refer to a server package as a whole and at no time referred specifically to software.

LL told clients they were paying high startup fees so that they could have their own server. Such fees surely would not be taken to refer only to software. They later denied making the claim that clients would have their own server-- which denial logically has to do with hardware since server software was being provided and would require no such denial.

It has been noted that LL has provided no purchase agreement regarding sims and has been negligent in informing clients of what they were receiving (ie, no ULA/SA). It has been noted by more than one poster that better representation of actual product/services received is needed and that many have been misinformed as to what they were actually receiving for their startup fees. Originally sims existed on dedicated servers (hardware) and were later stacked on shared servers without client knowledge or permission.

Several have testified on this thread regarding representation of LL claims at the time of sim purchase. This matter is established and again, has been met prior in this thread.

With all respect... we cannot continue to address such things over and over. Such is a waste of time and unproductive.

Town Hall Transcripts with cross talk, as many out loud comments were answered due to a low attendence allowing much less formality. It will also provide insight to some wierd statements that were not contexualized by the comments/questions that inspired them.

Kudos for one of the best town halls I have attended (note bolded and underlined points are relevant to this thread, some believe)

Jeska Linden: Hello everyone! Welcome to the Technical Town Hall with Ian Linden, director of operations. Thanks for coming out and Happy Halloween!
Jeska Linden: First some guidelines for the discussion. We will be focusing this Town Hall on questions about technical issues, please don't submit off-topic questions, as they will be skipped over.
Nexus Nash: hey! no pking me while i'm afk!
Jeska Linden: Ian is going to open with a brief introduction and then we will go into an open QA. Questions can be sent to me (Jeska Linden) in the form of an IM.
Ian Linden: I am?
David Valentino: lol
Jeska Linden: Also, for those who have joined us here, I'd like to ask you to please hold down the chat and offers of friendship until after the meeting as it can be distracting.
Cutter Rubio: lol
Jeska Linden: Ian, take it away.
Ian Linden: uh.. all you concerns will be fixed in, uh, 1.8, I, uh, promise
Ian Linden:
David Valentino: hehe
Ian Linden: actaully, since I know there are alot of performance questions
Cutter Rubio: He means 1.8.1(53)
Ian Linden: I think everyone should read the docs we've posted
Ian Linden: link
Ian Linden: http://secondlife.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=How+do+I+read+the+sim+performance+stats%3F
Ian Linden: not very in-depth as yet but they'll grow
Ian Linden: and it's a good baseline
Ian Linden: err, that's all I've got, I'd rather just spend the time on questions
Jeska Linden: Excellent, send them on over to me in IM
Jeska Linden: Nexus Nash: What's the status on estate tools v2 ? (more stats (scripts, objects etc), more control to deed, etc)
Fizik Baskerville: /tickle anshe chung
Ian Linden: forthcoming, but not immediately
Ian Linden: I can't give a date, unfortunately
Ian Linden: I think really these features will come in several small bits
Ian Linden: instead of one big overhaul
Ian Linden: we're focusing right now on fixing the existing bugs
Ian Linden: and lowering the crash rate
Ian Linden: after that I think we'll be able to start improving those tools
Ian Linden: it's clear that they are key in the long term
Ian Linden: sorry if that sounds like a cop-out, the schedule just isn't firm
Anshe Chung:
Ian Linden: next q?
Jeska Linden: Surreal Farber: Since a private sim represents substantial investment, when will be able to register with LL things such as survivorship and/or designated representative.
Ian Linden: good question, I have no idea
Daniel Linden: I'll take it!
Nexus Nash: LOL
Ian Linden: daniel?
Daniel Linden: We're working on plans as we speak to give you all a MUCH higher level of control...
Daniel Linden: ...administratively, over your estates.
Ferran Brodsky hopes Surreal didn't take out an absurdly large policy
Daniel Linden: Cyn and I will be making the rounds to personally speak with you about these plans...
Daniel Linden: ...and make sure we moving in the direction you want.
Ian Linden: another "coming soon" I guess
Daniel Linden: Once we've finalized the details...we'll move pretty quickly.
paulie Femto: hello, evyone!
Daniel Linden: Stay tuned!
Jeska Linden: Cutter Rubio: What provisions, if any, is LL making for keeping the private sims up to date in terms of hardware performance?
Ian Linden: that I can answer
Dave Eisenberg: oh noes lindunz
Ian Linden: right now we replace old machines on a rough schedule
Ian Linden: the basic plan is three years although we've been shorter than that so far
Ian Linden: ultimately we won't keep class 2 hardware in service forever
Ian Linden: if you're on a class that gets upgraded/replaced
Ian Linden: then you'll be moved up the latest stuff
Ian Linden: this makes the most sense for us from a deployment perspective
Bub Linden: Script run-time error
Bub Linden: Too Many Listens
100: say help for a notecard
Ian Linden: I can't give a timeline for the death of class 2, but hopefully it will be sooner than the 3-year anniversary for those machines
Ian Linden: we've considered offering a way to pay to move up ahead of schedule
Ian Linden: but it doesn't seem like that would make alot of sense
Cutter Rubio: My next question
Ian Linden: given the high cost and relatively modest performance gains
Ian Linden: but feel free to disagree with that
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: David Valentino: With the new and more accurate script count/readings, is there a target for max number of scripts we should be looking at for optimal sim performance? Say in a 75% prim usage sim?
Ian Linden: hmm
Ian Linden: unfortunately that depends more on what the scripts are doing than how many there are
Ian Linden: clearly whenever we get above 2500 or so things start to slow down
Ian Linden: but nominally when you run a ton of scripts all you'll do is slow down the other scripts
Ian Linden: not the sim
David Valentino: well..we know listeners and such cause lag..but a number for other type scripts that used to be tossed around was 400 on the old counting
Ian Linden: that's the goal anyway
paulie Femto: the script counts seem high. is the reported number reflecting all scripts running on a server (stacked estates) or just the script running on our sim?
Nexus Nash: I've gotten 2500, with good sim prefomance.. it's the type of scripts. not just the number.
Ian Linden: it's just the number for the sim
Ian Linden: the old number, it turns out, failed to count scripts on link children
Ian Linden: oops
Nexus Nash: really?
Dave Eisenberg: oopsie daisy
Nexus Nash: damn.
Ian Linden: so they tell me
Katt Kongo: ao off
Ian Linden: so, clearly we need better accounting/scheduling
Ian Linden: as mentioned in the first question
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: Nexus Nash: Any reason why TD gets hammered post 1.7 whenever there is the slightless load on the server?
Ian Linden: yeah I'd like to know too
Ian Linden: a
Ian Linden: actually, we're not running havok in lockstep w/ the rest of the sim
Ian Linden: nominally this is more efficient
Ian Linden: but if the sim drops below 45 fps then havok suffers as well
Ian Linden: and vice versa
Ian Linden: I think we're going to find there are efficiency bugs in the current code
Nexus Nash: it seems to get smashed at the smallest load.. lots of spikes
Ian Linden: yeah, it's not as good as it should be
Nexus Nash: and sometimes psikes down for no reason at all
Nexus Nash: as long as you guys know
Nexus Nash:
paulie Femto: I know LL claims no performance degradation between sims on the same server, but can we find out what estates we are stacked with so that we could arrange large events so as not to conflict with stacked neihgbors events?
Ian Linden: I would say, give us some time to patch this release
Ian Linden: paulie: I'd like to put that Q in the queue, jeska ok?
Jeska Linden: Sure
paulie Femto: kk
Jeska Linden: Please send questions in IM form to me
paulie Femto: sorry
Ian Linden: anway, we've done some grid-wide sim stats analysis
Ian Linden: and I think we're zeroing in on some problems
Ian Linden: I'd have to go offline to get more detail
Ian Linden: next q?
Jeska Linden: Mike Getting: Do you allocate faster servers to islands with a higher average load, or do all islands get whatever's current when they're first created?
Ian Linden: no, they get what they got when they were created
Ian Linden: this seems to be the most fair
Ian Linden: esp. since we can't move them between servers while they're running
Ian Linden: yet
Ian Linden: next q?
Jeska Linden: Anshe Chung: In Dreamland we have more than 300 people who own land deeds. People buy and sell those every day, but the process is manual due to lack of tools....
Jeska Linden: When will you recognize this existing market and provide tools that allow us to automate the trading ofdeeds in zoned sims?
Ian Linden: daniel, maybe you can comment on that?
Nexus Nash: go anshe!
Daniel Linden: Yes!
Daniel Linden: Anshe, this issue is in our plans for THIS quarter.
Jeska Linden: When will you recognize this existing market and provide tools that allow us to automate the trading ofdeeds in zoned sims?
Jeska Linden: opps
Anshe Chung: Alrighty
Ian Linden: I think this sort of thing is a clear goal for us
Anshe Chung: Just note: trading. Not just rent.
Daniel Linden: We plan to start creating and rollilng out these tools (and more) as they're complete.
Anshe Chung smiles
Ian Linden: the mainland can't be the only estate where land deeds are automated
Ian Linden: again, look for these in a series of small steps
Ian Linden: I think the "one giant release" model has been shown to have some problems
Jeska Linden: Mike Getting: How do we find out what class we're in?
Ian Linden: yeah, that'd be handy, eh
Ian Linden: tell you what, after this is over, I'll post that to the sim stats wiki page
Daniel Linden: We're going to solidify these type of arrangements and put the tools into Second Life -- it'll be better for owners, renters, vistors....this is a big goal for us NOW.
Ian Linden: right now you have to look at the hostname of the server in the About SL window
Ian Linden: I suppose it would be a good idea to report it directly
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: paulie Femto: I know LL claims no performance degradation between sims on the same server, but can we find out what estates we are stacked with so that we could arrange large events so as not to conflict with stacked neihgbors events?
Ian Linden: interesting
Ian Linden: you can find out, again, by matching the hostname in About SL
Ian Linden: that tells you, at least, if two are on the same machine
Ian Linden: although it's a bit of a pain
Wayfinder Wishbringer: To match hostname... we'd have to check every sim on the grid. ; )
Ian Linden: yeah, but right now that's pretty much all you've got, unfortunately
Ian Linden: the number of sims stacked on a machine is generally fixed for each class
Ian Linden: at least
Ian Linden: anyway, sorry I can't offer a better method
paulie Femto: thanks.
Ian Linden: I will say, however, that generaly speaking you shouldn't find persistent issues w/ stacked sims
Ian Linden: keeping in mind that ALL class 3s are stacked and everyone knows they're a bit faster than class 2s
Ian Linden: which are NEVER stacked
Ian Linden: however, we do run into trouble with the memory usage sometimes
Ian Linden: and that is a bug
Ian Linden: which we will very much try to fix
Ian Linden: which should reduce the problems that do occur
Ian Linden: next q?
Jeska Linden: Wayfinder Wishbringer: Of similar interest... for months we have asked for multiple-manager access of estate tools in private sims. I LL recognizing this need and planning to provide such?
Ian Linden: yes, see the first question
Wayfinder Wishbringer: K thanks
Ian Linden: I don't think the form these tools will take are yet set in stone
Ian Linden: so we'd love to hear your wishes
Ian Linden: next q?>
Jeska Linden: Vx Shaw: Regarding performance, is there a benefit to replicating the same script, as opposed to similar scripts performing similar functions - for example, if an automated vendor was standardized within my sim?
Ian Linden: not really
Ian Linden: however, inasmuch as vendors are standardize, if you can update them in an automated way
Ian Linden: there are alot of benefits to that
Ian Linden: especially if you are able to optimize the script, etc
Ian Linden: but no implicit benefit to uniformity
Nexus Nash: i'm working on that with ADam
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: Cutter Rubio: Right now, if we want a new height map (RAW file) applied to the sim, LL has to do it - any plans to allow estate owners to do that themselves? Would this be one of the future tool possibilities?
Ian Linden: daniel, got anything on that one?
Ian Linden: I believe that this is a step we'll *have* to take eventually
Ian Linden: manual processes just don't work as we scale out
Ian Linden: but I'm not sure if that's near or long term
Daniel Linden: We want to automated as many steps of the Estate purchase process as possible...
Nexus Nash: *raises hand* i've done it.... just get the basic template and mod it and send it to support....
Cutter Rubio: I'd like to do it on the fly Nexus
Daniel Linden: ....and uploading land form is also something our internal content team wants to make easier...
Nexus Nash: FYI it doesn't work that well and you'll still need to smooth stuff
Nexus Nash: ya auto would OWN
Daniel Linden: ...at this point, our internal tools aren't good enough to allow what you're asking, but everyone wants to ease this part of the process!
Ian Linden: I can certainly imagine uploading a raw file to a sim and having it load it in on the fly
Cutter Rubio: Great
Ian Linden: but imagination and reality take a while to get together
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: cua Curie: What is the current timeline for SL upgrades? What is the target timeframe for adding HTML on a prim? Havok2? mono and the new rendering system?
Nexus Nash: I have to get to class, later guys, will someone send me or post this somewhere?
Cyn Linden: Sure
Ian Linden: woah
David Valentino: hehe
Wayfinder Wishbringer: good questions.
Ian Linden: havok2 is one of our big projects right now
Ian Linden: since we wanted it out for 1.7
Ian Linden: it's still coming along nively
Ian Linden: nicely
Ian Linden: HTML on a prim is into the "next thing" category, so a little farther out
Ian Linden: new rendering system is still way out there, as we've slowed down on that
Ian Linden: to fix problems w/ the current version
Ian Linden: mono is anybody's guess
Ian Linden: we have a working prototype
Ian Linden: but it's going to take a while to hammer out the bugs and get the performance where we want it
Ian Linden: all of these thing, ultimately, we come out when they're done
Ian Linden: we've had poor luck giving out release dates in the past
Ian Linden: so I won't embarass myself by repeating past mistakes
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: Mulch Ennui: regarding the " memory usage" bug you just mentioned, what are the symptoms of this bug in a stacked server situation?
Ian Linden: I haven't studied it in 1.7 enough to give a good breakdown
Ian Linden: but the main symptom will be a rapid drop in performance for the same number of avs
Ian Linden: and the same general load
Ian Linden: the first thing that happens is, the autosave process (which eats extra memory)
Ian Linden: will start impacting the sim
Ian Linden: so you'll see these hourly drops in framerate which don't last very long
David Valentino: sounds very familiar
Ian Linden: the next thing that happens is, the autosaves from the OTHER sims start doing it
Ian Linden: so then you have multiple drops/hour, on a regular schedule
Ian Linden: the end stage is, all sims on that machine slow down because they're swapping
paulie Femto: wow
Ian Linden: it's not pretty, but it doesn't often get that bad
Ian Linden: I won't deny that there are memory leaks in the sim code
paulie Femto: well, we did ask for realtime weather.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Isn't that what we were asking in that huge forum war? And LL denied it. Big area of contention there (no sour grapes, but...)... ; )
David Valentino: sounds exactly like what we were talking about
Ian Linden: well, here's the thing
Ian Linden: along with the legitimate cases of this occurence
Anshe Chung: "all sims on that machine".... are there multiple sim per server now?
Mulch Ennui: where have u been anshe
Hiro Queso: lol
Ian Linden: there have been alot of problem blamed on "stacking" that really aren't a result of stacking
Surreal Farber laughs
Ian Linden: so it probably sounds a bit contradictory in the end
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Agreed Ian, but there *are* problems... yes?
Ian Linden: since we're respoding to different complains
Ian Linden: and the day when there are no problems, I can retire
Wayfinder Wishbringer: LOL
Vague Speculaas: is this a problem that griefers could utilize?
Ian Linden: I doubt it
Hiro Queso: lol they wont be even able to move in the sims
Ian Linden: I don't think people know the best ways to cause a sim to bloat
Ian Linden: I know I don't
paulie Femto: would increasing memory per sim help any?
Vague Speculaas: we don't need another one of those grid wide take down
Ian Linden: yes it would but there are logistical problems with upgrading 900 machines
Ian Linden: and it wouldn't realy solve the problem
Ian Linden: I'd rather fix the leaks
Ian Linden: honestly if a griefer could consistently cause a sim to bloat up to a huge size quickly
Ian Linden: it would really help our debugging efforts
Cutter Rubio: lol
Ian Linden: as it is, most sims takes a long time to grow, if they do at all
Vague Speculaas: is that a challenge to the griefers?
Vague Speculaas: geez
Wayfinder Wishbringer: LOL
Mulch Ennui: lol
Ian Linden: which is why the problems intensify which we haven't done a patch in several weeks
Ian Linden: with 1.7 there seems little risk of that for a while though
Ian Linden: next?
Wayfinder Wishbringer: ruh roh. shouldn't have said that. LOL
Jeska Linden: Fizik Baskerville: the current island layouts are a total mess, is there any plans to create a more ordered and navigatable system ?
Ian Linden: well we've certainly talked about ways to do that
paulie Femto: floating islands?
Ian Linden: and I think most of that got drowned in more immediate problems like fixing the sim list in the map
Ian Linden: I don't think we arrived at anything really solid
paulie Femto: or flyin islands? woot!
Ian Linden: so we'd like to hear your ideas
paulie Femto: imagin THAT crossin a sim? lol
Ian Linden: but yeah it's not an easy problem
Ian Linden: since geographic location has alot to do with identity
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: paulie Femto: How is the program for providing offshore "void" sims, attached to estates, coming along?
Surreal Farber raises hand with subquestion
Ian Linden: daniel?
Cyn Linden: I can take that
Cyn Linden: We are ready to do some more beta testing with void sims
Cyn Linden: You can email me for details
Jeska Linden: Nexus Nash: what % of load does the SL software take on the servers?
Ian Linden: all of it
Cutter Rubio: hehehe
Ian Linden: all of the time
Ian Linden: which is why SL uses 220kW
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: Surreal Farber: heh.. in regards to previous question on sim location... aren't sim adresses dynamic now, so moving doesn't change your LMs?
Ian Linden: if we do it right
paulie Femto: cool!
Ian Linden: but that's not a very smooth process
Ian Linden: if it actually works at all, I'm not really up on that one
Ian Linden: because landmarks are actually still referencing a location
Ian Linden: when a sim moves we have to update them
Ian Linden: which isn't very efficient
Ian Linden: so yes/no
Ian Linden: nexT?
Jeska Linden: We've got time for one or two more questions from the queue.
Jeska Linden: Nyteshade Vesperia: Are there plans to allow people to run sims using their own hardware?
Ian Linden: not in the near future
Fly Speed Booster whispers: Fly Speed Boost Activated!
Ian Linden: long term there are various business scenarios in which that could happen
Ian Linden: but there are a TON of issues with that
paulie Femto: long term it woul dhave to happen wouldnt it?
Ian Linden: not least of which is the implicit DRM embodied by the permissions system
Ian Linden: which wouldn't work in that scenario
Ian Linden: paulie: I dunno, our server building has 50,000 square feet of empty space
Ian Linden: I can fit alot of sims in there
paulie Femto: doh!
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: Anshe Chung: When you "sell" us so-called "land" or "sims", do we obtain something that maps to one certain value of computing resource that improve as technology improves and hardware price drop...
Jeska Linden: ...or did we buy into something that continuously devalues through technology improvement. Will you pass on hardware improvement to land owners? Or will our "land" be devalued? Or will you use advances to just decrease your costs and improve profi
Jeska Linden: margins.... I paid 1250$ for one sim. Does this mean that in 2 years I still own 1250$ worth of simulation power?
Ian Linden: as stated before, we will upgrade old server, so in theory if you keep a sim for 10 years
Ian Linden: you won't end up w/ a 10-year-old sim
Ferran Brodsky: very kurzwiel question
Ian Linden: I'm not eager to comment on what our pricing will be in the future
Ian Linden: since we don't have any real plans
Anshe Chung: Yes, but will that sim be as powerful as what you can buyq for 1250$ in 10 years?
paulie Femto: in 2012, SL will merge with "reality" anyway, so the q will be moot.
Ian Linden: but i'm sure things will change
Ian Linden: I like paulie's answer
Ferran Brodsky: Im hoping some of our 200 a month is going towards future upgrades
Anshe Chung: Or will in 10 years every SL user have 100 sims?
Ian Linden: I think the question is, are paying less for our servers while charging residents the same amount
paulie Femto: itll be the SLingularity
Surreal Farber reserves her vat of goo
Ian Linden: our per-cpu purchase cost goes up and down
Ian Linden: but stayes pretty stable
Ian Linden: note that each class of sim is a bit faster than the last
Ian Linden: 5 years from now, who knows?
Ian Linden: but note that mainland sims start at $1000
Anshe Chung: kk, so maybe one day sims sell for 12.5$?
Ian Linden: I would expect to continue to pay a premium for private islands
Ian Linden: we could sell for $1 if actually putting the thing online were free
Ian Linden: which it isn't right now
Ian Linden: even if the hardware were free
Ian Linden: I guess, long term, expect that we'll try to keep the prices fair
Ian Linden: we're not interested in gouging our customers
Mulch Ennui: i recently read an article stating hte processor power had reached the cieling. that now dual processors were the only way to improve performance, which makes it difficult to share servers as the demands of the platform raise
Anshe Chung: Right, but hardware become cheaper. So maybe in 10 years you could sell sims with 15000 prims for 12.5 US$. Or you could upgrade all sims to 1.5 mio prims and sell sims for 1250$
Anshe Chung: If you upgrade that way we win
Ian Linden: it could happen
Anshe Chung: If you just let price drop we loose
Ian Linden: that latter is probably more likely
Ian Linden: ultimately I personally think we're all better off if owning land in SL is a real investment
Ian Linden: and if the price remains stable
Anshe Chung nods
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Agreed
Ian Linden: next?
Jeska Linden: Ok, last question -- Wayfinder Wishbringer: Jeska, I think a major question that is underlying here is why did LL decide to stack servers without informing/asking the clients who pay for those servers? Wouldn't an inexpensive dual-core 1 sim/1 server ha
Wayfinder Wishbringer: ... have been a wiser investment. LOL
Jeska Linden: (thanks)
Ian Linden: well the main reason we did that was to save space and electricity
Wayfinder Wishbringer: At the potential expense of sim functionality? (with all respect)
Ian Linden: well, again, we've been stacking for a long time
Ian Linden: and I think generally the results are good
Ian Linden: because no one thinks about the other case
Ian Linden: when you have 4 sims one big machine, if 2 sims are small and light, there's more free room for 2 heavy ones before there are any problems
Ian Linden: likewise they all can share their various caches
Ian Linden: and are quicker to deploy updates to
Ian Linden: so I think that stacking really is a net positive
Ian Linden: and we're quite sure that the performance is good, as long as the sims aren't too bloated
Ian Linden: and they have to get pretty darn bloated before things start slowing down
Ian Linden: so I think what we all really want is for us to fix our memory leaks
Ian Linden: I will say, BTW, that this wasn't an obvious outcome
Ian Linden: when we first tested 4 sims on 2 dual-core machines it was a disaster
Ian Linden: the performance was terrible and we never would have put that in production
Ian Linden: but we were able to resolve the issue by moving to a 64-bit kernel
Ian Linden: and enabling NUMA
Ian Linden: which brought the performance back
Ian Linden: so we did consider the results carefully
paulie Femto: yay for the National Underwater and Marine Agency!
Ian Linden: ok, I guess that's all the time we have but I can hang around here for a few more minutes..
Mulch Ennui: lmao
David Valentino: lol

(continued next post, informal chat very informative)

(continued cross talk at town hall, post official Q & A, worth reading)

Cutter Rubio: Any news on the option of allowing estate owners to run two sims on their hardware?
Mike Getting: Many thanks to the Lindens for putting on this conference.
David Valentino: Thanks for taking the time to answer our questions
paulie Femto: hear hear!
Wayfinder Wishbringer: We appreciate the honesty Ian. Most refreshing.
Ian Linden: I think that's the "void" sim question from earlier
Daniel Linden: Thanks Ian!
Cyn Linden: Thanks for coming everyone
Mulch Ennui: i just want to say thank you for being honest about the mem leaks. we can all deal with (and do deal with bugs) but denying they exsist drives a wedge in relations.
Hiro Queso: thnx all
Jeska Linden: Thanks for the good questions
Cyn Linden: Thank you Ian and Jes!
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ditto Mulch's sentiment
Cutter Rubio: Well done!
Mulch Ennui: it also would have been nice if this change to multi sim servers was enounced ...
Ian Linden: I think probably there's been some internal confusion about the nature of memory leaks
Ian Linden: and again, we want to avoid creating a sim bloat boogey-man that gets blamed for everything
Wayfinder Wishbringer: True. As previously agreed, it's a combination of content/server issues.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: But not just user content. ; )
Wayfinder Wishbringer: We have to watch our content, for sure.
Ian Linden: I will post some server specs on the sim stats wiki
Wayfinder Wishbringer: which is where neat "script finder" tools come in.
Mulch Ennui: ditto we need tools
Ian Linden: but believe me, you're better off sharing a class 4 machine with 3 other sims
Ian Linden: than alone on a class 2 machine
cua Curie: Can you please offer a database hosting service we can lease from you that we can access directly from lsl? Wouldn't alot of the communications traffic and problems be reduced if we could host our data and php scripts with Linden Lab internally>?
Cutter Rubio: Please come up with a good method to locate objects left behind
Mulch Ennui: has the change in scripting priority in 1.7 produced good results? i know it has broken many of my scripts, so i would hope the benefit is there
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Agreed Cutter. We need to be able to locate the position of "rogue objects".... and of all scripts on a sim to manage a sim properly.
Ian Linden: Mulch: I think the jury's still out on that one
Cutter Rubio: Exactly Wayfinder
Mulch Ennui: i vote for a rollback because some mission critical scripts of mine are useless now =(
Mike Getting: I'll agree that when I'm scripting a moving object and it goes berserk and flies underground, getting hold of it again is a royal pain.
Ian Linden: cua: there's clearly a need for better script messaging and data storage
Mulch Ennui: in the way scripts are handled that is
Ian Linden: cua: lots of stuff in the works there, but I won't want to announce it yet because the specifics are still in flux
Cutter Rubio: Even the liasons can't find these rogue objects many times
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Well, we're constantly finding "135 objects" from some unknown user... and can't find those objects anywhere. LOL
cua Curie: I haven't been able to send an email to an in world object from the outside fro 2 days)
cua Curie: for
Ian Linden: cua: well that's a new 1.7 bug I'm sure
Ian Linden: cua: we'll look into that
cua Curie: thanks Ian
Wayfinder Wishbringer: (be sure to get this Jeska... good user feedback here. Can't BUY this stuff. : D)
Cutter Rubio: lol
Ian Linden: Mulch: I'd love to hear what the new scheduling has done to your scripts?
Jeska Linden grins
Ian Linden: Mulch: I they just slower, or is it something else?
Mulch Ennui: lee wanna come ride some of my rides?
David Valentino: yay! Rides!
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ian, something odd... my Xcarbon flight device... which always moved along at moderate pace in 1.6... zooms me through the strat now. BAM!
Mulch Ennui: they are racerx creations and he pushes the envelope, but they worked great in 1.6, useless in 1.7
Ian Linden: wayfinder: no clue
Hiro Queso: yeh my carbon rod is borked too
Wayfinder Wishbringer: yeah, no telling why.
Mulch Ennui: ian i said lee, meant ian, sorry
David Valentino: hmm..mine seems to be working fine
cua Curie: yeah moving is so much hard now, in any form lol
Mike Getting: The carbon rod I got has two identical scripts on it, that could cause havok (pun intended)
Hiro Queso: just keeps sending me up and up lol
Ian Linden: what I'd really like is a copy of a script that broke w/ 1.7
Wayfinder Wishbringer: : D Mike
Ian Linden: or an object
Ian Linden: which I can give to QA
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Yes Hiro, mine too
David Valentino: oh yes..if I hover I do float up at a good clip
Vetiver Yamabushi: mine was actually doing that before the release...
Wayfinder Wishbringer: There you go Mulch. Answer for your rides.
Mulch Ennui: becauise of perm issues, racerx still owns the object, so i cant send it to u, but i can show it to u
Vetiver Yamabushi: ... from time to time.
Mulch Ennui: hes not online atm
Ian Linden: alright, I'll refer the bug hunters to racerx
Ian Linden: a bug w/ a the havok interface is certinaly possible
David Valentino: Thanks again..have a good day all!
Mulch Ennui: he has noted many issues to , so he is a good place to start. i know some regard temp on rez issues and moving textures, but it does go beyond the scope of that
Wayfinder Wishbringer: See ya David
Ian Linden: ok
Cutter Rubio: Cya David
Ian Linden: anything else?
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ian, if you folks want to see really borked examples, visit Thomson sim. Constant data issues there. Major bad. Good test area.
Ian Linden: I though this was going to be hard
Cyn Linden: OK guys!
Ian Linden: thomson, check
Cyn Linden: I dunno about you but I have telehubs to set
Mike Getting: Thank you all again.
Mulch Ennui: just once again, ty, being honest with us goes a long way to cooling us when something doesnt work. i appreciate this meeting
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ditto
Vetiver Yamabushi: Can I put in a plug for leaving Supernova and Varnish here? They're my favorite places.
Vetiver Yamabushi: : D
Cyn Linden:
Alliez Mysterio: I agree
Hiro Queso: yup must head off too. thnx guys
Cyn Linden: Thanks again everyone for coming
Katt Kongo: ao on
Ferran Brodsky: thanks for keeping a line open to us
Vx Shaw: Thanks Linden gang
Cyn Linden: Anytime
Ian Linden: k, thanks folks, I'll have some sim class stuff in the wiki page I sent out earlier up in a little while
paulie Femto: whens the next one of these?
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Kewl Ian. thanks. Yeah, need much more info on Wiki.... for example... some figures... are they better higher or lower? Hard to tell.
Cyn Linden: Haven't decided yet
paulie Femto: k
Cyn Linden: I will keep you informed, and you can always IM me
Ian Linden: wayfinder: mostly better higher
Wayfinder Wishbringer: K thanks
Ian Linden: but we put some class 3s in the old class 1 slots
Ian Linden: just to confuse everybody
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Yeah, it worked. LOL
Katt Kongo: lol
Anshe Chung: People are hungry for land, need to run. Take care
Wayfinder Wishbringer: maybe not good move, that. LOL
Wayfinder Wishbringer: See ya Anshe. Be well!
Ian Linden: well, IP addresses are a limited resource
Ian Linden: but I agree we could have done it better
Ian Linden: it didn't seem relevent at the time
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Yeah, I was talking Numbers rather than IP addys. : )
Mike Getting: IPv6 is gonna be a big boon to you guys.
Ian Linden: and it won't be if we ever get the class info into the about box
Ian Linden: Mike: maybe
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ian, one major question that has continually come up in the forums... if I may
Ian Linden: sure
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Is there only 1 hard drive on a shared server... and if so... how is that not a bottleneck?
Ian Linden: it could be in theory
Mike Getting: We're starting to run IPv6 where I work on an experimental bases, phasing to running our desktops on IPv6 servers. So we can keep ahead of our customers.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: (sorry to put you folks on the spot... but folks are gonna ask. : D)
Ian Linden: there is only one
Mike Getting: So far, startlingly few gotchas.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: K thanks Ian. Much appreciate it.
paulie Femto: SCSI? SATA?
Ian Linden: wayfinder: BUT
Ian Linden: hah, still plain old pata
paulie Femto: doh
Ian Linden: but the newer disks are quite a bit faster than the old ones
Ian Linden: and, more importantely, the sims really aren't I/O bound
Mike Getting: (But soooo much stuff comes off the data server anyway, it's hard to say what's makinmg a sim run slow.)
Mulch Ennui: i run raid 2 and have nothing but great things to say. do the servers use virtual memory and cache in the procs?
Ian Linden: for one thing, the IO is threaded
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Yup. And not busting anyone's chops... the quetion isn't are they faster... but are they fastest? : D
Mulch Ennui: raid 1*
Mulch Ennui: shoot, i mena striped, whichever that is
Ian Linden: so IO won't block the server or slow it down
Ian Linden: it just means that, if it is being slow, assets etc will load more slowly
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Threaded how Ian? For those not hyper-tech minded.
Ian Linden: but we don't see that much, even on the class 4 machines
Mulch Ennui: a striped scsi HD at 15,000 would smoke!
Wayfinder Wishbringer: (again with all respect. No discourtesy intended at all. )
Ian Linden: Wayfinder: basically it means that all the reads/writes happen out of step with the main process
Wayfinder Wishbringer: K
Ian Linden: wayfinder, so you're not waiting for it the way you do with most desktop apps
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Understood. Thanks.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Actually, moot point at this time... since the servers are established....
Ian Linden: sortof
Wayfinder Wishbringer: mainly trying to establish whether in future, less-expensive dual-cores might be a better answer.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: 1 sim per server
Ian Linden: the real point is, class 5 will probably not have extra-fast disks
Ian Linden: because there doesn't appear to be a need
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Class 5? Whssat?
Ian Linden: whatever the next class is
Mulch Ennui: what about on asset servers? disk speed would a factor there, correct?
Wayfinder Wishbringer: LOL
Ian Linden: it's probbaly a year out
Wayfinder Wishbringer: ok. Was afraid I'd missed something.
Ian Linden: well, the asset servers are a different story altogether
Ian Linden: THEY have the higher-end SATA disks, and LOTS of them
Mulch Ennui: w00t
paulie Femto: will we ever have any type of limited shell access to our estate servers? to run tools?
Ian Linden: doubt it
Mike Getting: *blink blink*
paulie Femto:
Mulch Ennui: ian, are the asset servers run raid stripped?
Ian Linden: more likely, if we want to provide access to that sort of data, it'll come in a web service
Mulch Ennui: striped*
Ian Linden: actually, the asset servers are using a very weird proprietary filesystem
Ian Linden: that does striping in a way that isn't the same as raid
paulie Femto: asset servers are apache based, right?
Ian Linden: sortof
Ian Linden: apache on top of the clustered filesystem
Mulch Ennui: raid 0+1 on scsi 15000s are , from my limited knowledged, the fastest safeset way to handle data at a high speed
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ian something we need more than anything else is increased analysis tools on our sims... and the ability for more than one person to access Estate tools. A "list" set by sim owner to provide authority to others.
Mulch Ennui: that in tandom with more hierarchy based group tools way
Wayfinder Wishbringer: We need to be able to locate prims and scripts and control what goes on in our sims.
Ian Linden: wayfinder: yes, a way to profile your script load and deputized control are important
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Yes
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Would be nice. : D
Ian Linden: but remember we have to balance that against, say, the lots and lots of people who still have frequent crashes
Mike Getting: I concur that I need to be able to find rogue objects. Our island uses do not match Wayfarer's, though, so our most urgent need is in fact outbound RPC.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Because as it is... we're told content is a problem.... but we have no way to control/patrol that content... especially with scripts.
Mike Getting: We need that for our groupware tools.
Ian Linden: right
Mulch Ennui: ditto wayfinder
Ian Linden: don't think we're not aware of the problem there
Mulch Ennui: need to know what scripts are botching my performance
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Yup, we appreciate that Ian.
Ian Linden: it's frustrating that we can't address this stuff more quickly
Mulch Ennui: keep us in the loop and we will happily deal with the wait
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Only so many man-hours in a day. But if you're aware and planning... a step inthe right direction.
Ian Linden: we've been planning for a long time
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Ditto Mulch
Ian Linden: but, you know, people voted, and havok 2 was at the top
Mike Getting: It's tough - ideally I suppose an island owner would like something like a UNIX "top" display showing which scripts are chewing up the time, then a way to locate the top offenders in space.
Ian Linden: so that's what we're working on
Wayfinder Wishbringer: yeah, about that "vote" thing.... LOL
Wayfinder Wishbringer: That's a majorly bolluxed system. : D
Ian Linden: yeah
Wayfinder Wishbringer: IMHO
Mulch Ennui: at this point, wouldnt it be wiser to go havok 3 as from what i am told, havok 2 is no longer supported?
Wayfinder Wishbringer: *blink* really Mulch?
Ian Linden: it's supported alright
Ian Linden: havok 3 is mostly just havok 2 w/ ragdolls
Mulch Ennui: ok, my bad, but havok website no longer mentions it
Wayfinder Wishbringer: LOL
Wayfinder Wishbringer: scared me
Wayfinder Wishbringer: nearly peed
Katt Kongo: lol
paulie Femto: havok 3 is continuos swept volume physis as oppose dto discrete isnt it?
Ian Linden: I didn't think so, but I won't argue w/ it
Ian Linden: I'm not heavily into the havok stuff
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Just my 2c worth... vote system would work lots better if every user was allowed 1 vote per issue, yeah, neutral, against. That would be a valid vote system.
Ian Linden: all I know is that the decision was to skip it for now
Mulch Ennui: any news on when my vehicles will stop be burried at siom borders and passengers ejected (off topic i know, sorry, but i wanne drive)
paulie Femto: I think thats one of the biggest selling points of H3: th emove to csv.
Ian Linden: ah
Ian Linden: well then I just don' tknow
Ian Linden: ah, region crossing
Wayfinder Wishbringer: above my head... dunno Havok at all
paulie Femto: but maybe it isnt doable with a rime slice system like Sl uses..dunno..
paulie Femto: time sliced. lol
Jeska Linden: Ok, thanks again for coming out everyone.
Mulch Ennui: ty jeska
Wayfinder Wishbringer: LOL. was wondering "rime slice".... fraid of looking ignorant...
Ian Linden: region crossing is always a release away from being fixed
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Thanks Jeska
Mulch Ennui: lol hardly comforting
Ian Linden: someday we'll get it right
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Thanks Ian and Daniel. Enjoyed the meet
Mike Getting: Yes, very much. Thanks.
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Oh, and Cyn of course. : D
Cyn Linden: : D
Jeska Linden: Bye everyone!
paulie Femto: bye
cua Curie: take care
Katt Kongo: Bye Jeska
Mulch Ennui: yes ty cyn, danial and ian, and lee too
Wayfinder Wishbringer: Honestly thought this was going to be a smoke disaster today. Much appreciate the honesty and stand-up
Mulch Ennui: wallflower lee
Ian Linden: k, thanks all, I'm off
Cyn Linden: See ya guys!
cua Curie: thanks Ian

Thanks Bro for posting this. It gives a better understanding as to what was going on & what the crowd reaction was.

Due to work, I was unable to attend as I work the same times these Townhall happens. So it's no surprise that I'm not able to attend any of them as they run the meetings during their work schedule, which is expected. Leave the overtime pay for the critical things.

Including the extra comments you posted by residents made for a much better picture & understanding as to what was being said.

Thanks again & kudo's to both LL & residents for an informative Townhall

Thank you Way, I went through all the posted Town Hall notes and saw my question finally answered.

You can see the result of my asking it in the hotline as previously suggested, here.
/invalid_link.html

Thanks to all the participants at the Town Meeting for their very well thought out questions and the follow through for those of us owning sims on the mainland who were not invited to participate.

Kudos to LL for providing the Town Hall as well, seems it worked out well

Yup, this is the kind of stuff we've been getting at... and hopefully LL has recognized by this point. You asked him a direct question about "is there a shared hard drive" and the answer was basically "no"... when in truth the answer should have been "Yes... there is a shared hard drive and yes, sometimes sims do affect the operation of one another".

I don't know whether it's crossed wires at LL (it has to be hectic there) or maybe they just get in a rush to answer... or maybe sometimes they're just not being 100% on the level... but this kind of misinformation has to stop. At Town Hall Ian answered us directly and honestly, which we appreciate. Like Mulch said, bugs and time to fix them we can handle. Being mislead is a whole nuther thing. After all.. how can we help make SL operate better if we have no tools and wrong LL information from the outset?

We hope this situation improves over the next few weeks because in truth... the greatest potential asset LL has is its customers. LL designs the software and platform-- but we design the world and "live" here several hours a day. We often have a feel for when something just isn't quite right... and as has been demonstrated... even have a good clue as to where and why.

I just got finished re-reading the "official transcript" of the town hall meeting. I did find it interesting that a lot of the discussion at that meeting was left out. Basically, that transcript included only what Jeska directly posted as a question and Ian directly answered. However, as Mulch's post above shows, there was a LOT that was commented and answered at the meeting site that users would never know if not for this more complete and accurate transcript.

Of particular note to this forum was the validation that yes, stacked servers did indeed cause sims to impact one another--with exactly the symptoms that had been described by several sim owners (see bold section of transcript, plus the comment by myself and David directly following). So as we look through this thread and read all those absolute denials and people posting that these things were in people's imaginations and challenged a "lack of data" when in fact plenty of data had been presented... perhaps next time these might be a little less absolute in pre-formed opinions and pay more attention to presented evidence and established computer theory/methodology--and stop being so gullible.

While we were intentionally being very respectful at that meeting, there were times when Linden comments were challenged, questioned and (where necessary) exposed. It's good for users to be able to read the entire meeting to fully understand all the underlying facts. Mulch's full transcript answers a lot more questions than the official release. So I'm glad he decided to post it here.

(note: to my knowledge, the only thing not posted in Mulch's transcript were "jokes" or private comments between users and having nothing to do with the discussion at hand).

I cannot accept props. Your thread inspired the meeting, hence you deserve all the credit

Actually, it appears he pretended not to understand the question so that he could avoid answering it, but in essence I agree with your assesment. Lets lay it out here though to make it even more (sadly) obvious.

From the thread:

Erelas: In the multi-cpu arrangement used by LL to run a private sim, is there a shared hard drive where a potential bottleneck could occur?

Robin Linden: No -- every sim region has a dedicated CPU. Although the newer servers have dual processors (or in some cases four CPUs) those processors operate independently and without interference from each other.

So basically, he answered a different question (about dedicated CPUs) than the one that was asked. Seems a bit shady... especially considering...

From the transcript:

Wayfinder Wishbringer: Is there only 1 hard drive on a shared server... and if so... how is that not a bottleneck?

Ian Linden: there is only one