Should LL Participate in Resident Abuse?
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Lecktor Hannibal
YOUR MOM
Join date: 1 Jul 2004
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12-16-2005 11:44
From: Jake Reitveld Well I think you have a one two punch here.
Really the lindens have set themselves up for this by taking the position they have with respect to discispline. Any disciplinary action taken by LL towards a resident is shrouded in secrecey. We do not know exactly what the conduct was that was subjected to discipline, nor do we know what the discisplinary action taken was. The lack of transparencey in the system, makes it feel sort of arbitrary.
Now the lindens start showing up on IRC and talking to the FIC (yesah yeah I know its a muyth lol), who have access there. They all pitch a bitch about resident y and decide he is going to be banned. Boon resident Y gets banned and we never know why.
So the problem for me is not that LL employees talk on the IRC. The problem is that they have no discussions and we have nothing except thier assurances that these discussions do not influence discipline. If the discisppline system were transparent, then this would not be an issue at all-we would knoe the banned conduct. But as it stands, this hush hush cloak and dagger discipline, coupled with quasi-secret IRC channels can lead to the impression of abuse.
Ultimately these things are never about what actually occurs, but only about what might possibly occur. I wondered when this was going to come up. 
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
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12-16-2005 11:45
From: Surreal Farber I've never been banned from any game or known anyone who was... Out of curiosity, does any game company have a transparent banning process? Not that I am aware of, but I know for a fact Sony Online has stong Policy against the sort of comunications that we are talking about. I am sure that Blizzard does too. I understand that the system is not transparent to protect the privcay rights of the resident. This makes sense. However, this means there must be some very formal policies the demark what corporate employees do under color of the corporation, and what is thier personal opinion. But really that is niether here nor there, because SL is a platform, not a game. Also SL is an enviroment unlike any any other. People have been banned from SL (and EQ and SWG for that matter). And really Enbaran. I don't have to jump off a cliff to know that its abad idea. And I don't have to use the IRC to know that it creates a situation frought with peril. Its enough to know that it exists, and the lindens use it.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
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12-16-2005 11:48
From: Jake Reitveld I don't have to jump off a cliff to know that its abad idea. And I don't have to use the IRC to know that it creates a situation frought with peril. Its enough to know that it exists, and the lindens use it. Jumping off a cliff implies certainty in outcome. I see no certainty in outcome here besides the paranoid flapping their arms.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Lordfly Digeridoo
Prim Orchestrator
Join date: 21 Jul 2003
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12-16-2005 11:49
From: Enabran Templar It amuses me that most of the loudest voices in this thread actually know the least about the channel given that they don't actually use it. It's amazing how people will swallow a one-sided story. Yeah. This is what causes the most drama. Seriously, guys. There are like, 1 billion IRc clients out on that there intarnets. You can download one, connect to Efnet, and join #secondlife. Do it. It's fun. I promise we won't grill you any more we grill llBen (OMFG FAVORITISM LEET HAX FICERATI) Hang out there for a week, and then post your feelings on the forums here. Come on, put up or shut up. The ones that are screaming the loudest (sans Hank) do not participate in the channel... I'd be curious to see their responses after a week of tiramisu jokes, NSFW links, and /me debauchery. Sheesh.
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Lecktor Hannibal
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12-16-2005 11:50
Ventrilo is where the real FUC hang out. /new conspiracy
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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12-16-2005 11:55
From: Lecktor Hannibal God some people really are pollyanna windbags. Why are you bringing Pollyanna into this? Hasn't Second Life challenged her extreme optimism enough as it?
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Lecktor Hannibal
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12-16-2005 11:56
From: SuezanneC Baskerville Why are you bringing Pollyanna into this? Hasn't Second Life challenged her extreme optimism enough as it? You are so correct, my apologies. 
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YOUR MOM says, 'Come visit us at SC MKII http://secondcitizen.net ' From: Khamon Fate Oh, Lecktor, you're terrible. Bikers have more fun than people !
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Cory Edo
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Join date: 26 Mar 2005
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12-16-2005 11:58
This thread deserves a..... FISH SLAP 
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Mike Westerburg
Who, What, Where?
Join date: 2 May 2004
Posts: 317
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12-16-2005 12:00
question, please see it as just a simple question though. With all the strife caused by this mess, isn't it possible that someone could create an IRC relay object in SL so that in-world residents can "tune" in to the chat going on even if they don't want to perticipate? They can still listen without having to actually join the channel. I was jsut asking because I thought it was possible to relay IRC chat into SL based upon past dealings with a certian group having an object do that. Perhaps an in-world object to listen to the chat could help clear up any confusion about what gets talked about there.
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Jake Reitveld
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12-16-2005 12:14
From: Enabran Templar Jumping off a cliff implies certainty in outcome. I see no certainty in outcome here besides the paranoid flapping their arms. I might live if I jump off a cliff.
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Pol Tabla
synthpop saint
Join date: 18 Dec 2003
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12-16-2005 12:25
I'm too sexy for this thread
Too sexy for this thread
So sexy it hurts
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
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12-16-2005 12:26
From: Pol Tabla I'm too sexy for this thread
Too sexy for this thread
So sexy it hurts  |
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Cory Edo
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12-16-2005 12:27
From: Pol Tabla I'm too sexy for this thread
Too sexy for this thread
So sexy it hurts That was a little slice of heaven. 
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
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12-16-2005 12:29
From: Jake Reitveld I might live if I jump off a cliff. Yes, perhaps if you flap your arms.
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Cocoanut Koala
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12-16-2005 12:41
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Hey hey! Firstly, way to go on the fundraising efforts - that's awesome! However, I think my points are still valid. Just because LL's customer service response needs to be improved doesn't mean there's any evil to having a few of them in an IRC channel, in my opinion. While I agree LL's response often needs improvement, I don't make the leap that because their communication sucks sometimes that we should cut off a friend communication channel.
Regards,
-Flip The problem is, that channel won't let Hank be friends. Or four other people, apparently. coco |
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Mike Westerburg
Who, What, Where?
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12-16-2005 12:41
From: Cristiano Midnight Yes, perhaps if you flap your arms. But wouldn't that cause a tornado in India?
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
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12-16-2005 12:45
From: Cocoanut Koala The problem is, that channel won't let Hank be friends. Or four other people, apparently. Do you think people should be allowed to behave any way they want, then?
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Cory Edo
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12-16-2005 12:46
From: Enabran Templar Do you think people should be allowed to behave any way they want, then? Enabran, feel free to continually berate me publicly over something I did months ago, because I see it as a sign that you want to be my friend. And I appreciate it!
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Cristiano Midnight
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12-16-2005 12:48
From: Lordfly Digeridoo Yeah. This is what causes the most drama.
Seriously, guys. There are like, 1 billion IRc clients out on that there intarnets. You can download one, connect to Efnet, and join #secondlife. Do it. It's fun. I promise we won't grill you any more we grill llBen (OMFG FAVORITISM LEET HAX FICERATI)
Hang out there for a week, and then post your feelings on the forums here.
Come on, put up or shut up. The ones that are screaming the loudest (sans Hank) do not participate in the channel... I'd be curious to see their responses after a week of tiramisu jokes, NSFW links, and /me debauchery.
Sheesh. Very well stated. People complaining the loudest (well, besides Hank) generally have never even spent a moment in the channel. How something that the entire public can access (including even non-SL members) is somehow some secret cabal bastion of the FIC is beyond me. For a secret, locked channel, the security REALLY sucks! Then again, we're all just Linden attention whores apparently, according to Dianne.
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Cristiano Midnight
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12-16-2005 12:49
From: Cory Edo Enabran, feel free to continually berate me publicly over something I did months ago, because I see it as a sign that you want to be my friend. And I appreciate it! Well now that you mention it, I did ask you to make a banner ad for my store, and I didn't get squat.
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Cocoanut Koala
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12-16-2005 12:49
From: Enabran Templar Do you think people should be allowed to behave any way they want, then? The Lindens should not give some residents access to themselves while excluding others, on the say-so of some residents. That is what is happening on IRC. The IRC channel can ban whoever they like, be as lax as they like, or as strict as they like. They can say whatever they like in that channel, and exclude whoever they wish, as it is a private channel run by one person. Lindens have no business hanging around a private IRC channel and being "friendly" there only with those who are allowed to join the channel. It's a clear-cut policy matter. coco |
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Cristiano Midnight
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12-16-2005 12:53
From: Cocoanut Koala The Lindens should not give some residents access to themselves while excluding others, on the say-so of some residents. That is what is happening on IRC.
The IRC channel can ban whoever they like, be as lax as they like, or as strict as they like. They can say whatever they like in that channel, and exclude whoever they wish, as it is a private channel run by one person.
Lindens have no business hanging around a private IRC channel and being "friendly" with only those who are allowed to join the channel.
It's a clear-cut policy matter.
coco The Lindens are not excluding anyone - everyone has the same access to them. Blaze even proved that by starting his own IRC channel, then not following through on it. The IRC channel is not private - it is a public IRC channel on a public network - it is not being run on some third party site. Hank was banned from the channel for repeated abuse - that is a moderation issue between he and the channel moderators, he is just furthering the flames of drama and proving himself to be a master drama queen by making it about his freedom to access the Lindens, not about his vendetta against a group of people he feels wronged by (and who feel wronged by him). Yet amazingly, he has the exact same amount of access to the Lindens as he always has. The same amount you do as well, Cocoanut, and that I do, and that anyone else in SL does. I find it especially dubious to speak about something you've never taken part in. It's like the people who protest movies they've never even seen.
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Cory Edo
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12-16-2005 12:54
From: Cristiano Midnight Well now that you mention it, I did ask you to make a banner ad for my store, and I didn't get squat. Cause you got a MUSEUM INSTEAD /me bans you from the IRC channel in my head Now please do what friendly people do and start a new thread about this. Include links to previous arguements and make sure everyone knows that you're doing it for the good of the community.
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Juro Kothari
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12-16-2005 12:56
The Lindens should not give some residents access to themselves while excluding others, on the say-so of some residents. That is what is happening on IRC.
The IRC channel can ban whoever they like, be as lax as they like, or as strict as they like. They can say whatever they like in that channel, and exclude whoever they wish, as it is a private channel run by one person.
Lindens have no business hanging around a private IRC channel and being "friendly" there only with those who are allowed to join the channel.
It's a clear-cut policy matter.
coco
I disagree with your comments, Coco. The Lindens *are* accessible to everyone. There's this thing called the 'Find' button in SL, use it.
I don't see any issue with them on a privately-managed IRC chat channel. Many companies send representatives to private events for various reasons and I don't see this as any different.
If that privately run channel was the ONLY way to access a Linden, I'd agree with you - but it's not, by far. We have many more avenues to access them: email, SL, forum PM, and (if you're local) stalking.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
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12-16-2005 13:04
From: Cocoanut Koala Lindens have no business hanging around a private IRC channel and being "friendly" there only with those who are allowed to join the channel. Have you ever developed product?
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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