Should LL Participate in Resident Abuse?

You know you are really good at being snide and snotty, Enabran, but you can't think very clearly.

Every member of Second Life could attend that conference if they wished.

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I wonder - I really do - about a lot people on these forums who don't mind this kind of thing. I wonder how you would feel if it were YOU who were banned from being on an IRC channel that the Lindens use.

I wondered, too, how you would feel if it were YOU who were featured on the Tourbus from hell that the Lindens put up under "Linden Information."

I wonder these things - because I think so many of you think, "It's okay, it's just so and so, and we don't like him/her anyway."

This is SOOOO dangerous and so terrible. I can't believe I see this attitude so often on these forums, from so many people.

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It would all be fine if the Lindens weren't part and parcel of it. What people chose to do with their private IRC channels or their private Infonet channels is their business. When the Lindens make these channels their official or quasi-official conduits of information, however, and yet allow another resident to control the access to them and/or what is allowed on them, the Lindens shirk their duty as owners and rulers of this world.

They shirk their duty to make sure it is a fair world to every resident who pays the Lindens, expecting fair treatment.

coco

I am *so* happy you said that, I was waiting patiently for someone to make that blatantly shallow assumption.

Wanna know why I'm happy? Because I'm the prime example that blows your theory out of the water. I've been aware of (and actually have on occasion visited) the IRC channel since the day after I joined SL back in 2003. I've always kept at least one eye on the comings and goings of the channel, including these forums. I've seen the IRC channel flareups, the usual heapings of forum drama, seen the laisse-faire attitude of LL customer service, and their laid-back, half-hearted responses in-world. I've deliberately kept myself mostly out of that debate, because I'm firmly convinced my opinion on the matter wont change their behaviour. That's not to mention what I've seen of FIC-like special interest groups and cliques around the Lindens. And it doesn't even mention that I'm aware *right now* of at least one low-key romantic relationship taking place between a certain Linden and in-world participant.

Those things I haven't even bothered to get in a snit over because yanno what, Lindens are people too. However, I am going to stand up and make sure that people understand not everyone agrees with how things are handled. "You dont agree with my opinion, therefore you clearly dont know the subject background" is a complete and utter crock. For those people who elect to frequent the IRC channel, wether it's official or not it provides them a way of having real-time, immediate and unfettered direct access to those Lindens who are there. Not only that, but because they wear the 'LL' tags, they're there in the specific role of a LL employee. That means LL employees are in a social situation where they have the potential of allowing non-LL-employees from exterting a direct or indirect undue influence on their views and concerns regarding SL. It also means that company confidential material is also at risk of being inadvertently disclosed to the public.

If the Lindens want to socialize as off-duty individuals, then that's fine. Let "JoeLinden" socialize as "JoeAverageJoe" during his non-work time. But when "JoeLinden" is socializing as "JoeLinden", then he's acting a representative of LL in a non-official situation that shouldn't have LL there.

That's the problem here folks, it's that conflict of interest. Anyone who works in a corporate environment knows there's a tricky line between acting as one's self and acting as a representative of their employer. The question isn't if there really is an FIC or if there are/were Lindens that have been unduly influenced via the IRC communications; it is that they could be unduly influenced. If they haven't yet, then great, let's count our blessings, but the longer it goes on without resolution the greater the odds that it will happen sooner or later.


Take that one from someone who knows quite a bit on the issue - being there watching closely since 2003.

- Newfie

I don't get these kinds of tips!!

Is there an FIC of the FIC I am not part of?!

Oh, okay. I see what you're saying.

You could have a frog start growing in your nasal cavity. It could happen.

Even to you.



Ooh. Declaring things true without evidence is neat!

Ok coco after 4,541 posts we get your point. I stress, it is YOUR point. Good day.

*Withdraws my "#ButterFlySex" comment from earlier*

I would probably put myself under the microscope for a while and try to figure out what I was doing to piss people off.

That requires a degree of maturity though.

Anything I say here will likely also be ignored by Hank anyway.

He didn't listen to me a year ago.
He didn't listen to me 6 months ago.
He didn't listen to me how I was hoping he would last week.

Anything I say here is moot to him, so meh, just bothering cause someone might listen.

Only if they paid. And if they didn't pay, they would be excluded. OMG.



You really don't know much about the channel because you don't use it. The Lindens aren't a huge part of my experience there and I wouldn't be banned anyway because I <3 Belaya and wouldn't be a dick to her or make her role unpleasant.



Personally, it wouldn't exactly bother me to have the traffic. I bet there'd be a little curiosity seekers. But I think the InfoNet business is total crap, anyway. Way inappropriate for Linden land.



Well, I think you have a fern growing in your spleen. It's just a hunch. No, you're right, I have no way of actually knowing. But I'll throw it out there anyway.



IRC isn't an official information channel. It has never been used as such. Shrieking can't transmute lead into gold or left into right.

Because, we all know that you and a few others are the only people who have any real world experience to draw from. Is that it?

Do you honestly think I'm gonna spend my time making shit up to post, especially when I already know that it won't be well recieved?

Speaking of shrieking, have you noticed there has been a LOT of editing and deleting on another *ahem* unofficial website ? Very intriguing and hilarious.

Well, kiddo, if you want to convince me of something, you'll need to... actually convince me?



Not really. You've never been big on supporting your claims.

Excellent argument! I'm looking forward to many more insights like this!

I think I'll just bang a rock against my head, because I can get the same satisfaction from it as I get even trying to have a conversation with you.

I get it, though. When you don't want to listen to what someone is saying, you resort to making condescending remarks. It's a sure sign of, well, I can't say. You know TOS and all.

Here's a clue:

Just because you can't envision something happening doesn't mean it can't or doesn't happen. We're not talking about some hypothetical frog. But you knew that. You just refuse to listen.

Well... now you have me convinced.

Pigs flew yesterday. They DID.

I can envision plenty of things happening, particularly what you mentioned. I just don't envision it as mattering, particularly within the grander scheme of things.

Fair enough.

Hey hey! Firstly, way to go on the fundraising efforts - that's awesome! However, I think my points are still valid. Just because LL's customer service response needs to be improved doesn't mean there's any evil to having a few of them in an IRC channel, in my opinion. While I agree LL's response often needs improvement, I don't make the leap that because their communication sucks sometimes that we should cut off a friend communication channel.

Regards,

-Flip

I'm not really sure what the problem is, frankly. The lindens are approachable by multiple, various means, and by anyone who cuts the bull and talk to them like human beings.

We're all invited to IM them and try to chat, if they're not busy (though they usually are, when on-duty). We're all invited to come over their public access region on the mainland and have a chat with them. We're all invited to talk with them over IRC, forums of other websites, or whatever.

Stop trying to turn them into goverment officials, and stop complaining about IRC in particular. Next thing I know you'll demand to prohibit them from posting on SLUniverse or fan-sites, or even keep up a personal blog with Comments turned on.

You make a very good point here.

One of the great and rare things about SL and LL is how casual and open the company is to it's residents. It is such a nice break from the buzzword-spewing, goose stepping, sterile corporate PR departments which are so prevalent in most online games these days. Let's not ruin that, okay?

I would hate to see LL devolve into the same closed-door ivory tower that most MMORPGs are these days, where they can't ever talk about anything or participate in anything that hasn't been thoroughly pre-approved by the PR department. That would lead to sad times -- sad sterile times.

This thread sounds like a case of vindictive sour grapes by someone who was obsessed with some months-old issue, and refused to let it drop well beyond the patience threshold of the IRC channel's participants. So now he wants to go on a crusade to sterilize (read: ruin) LL for everyone to get back at a few people.

PS: As someone who has been on and off IRC on many occasions over the past decade, I can tell you that the moderators in #secondlife are a *whole* lot more passive and forgiving than 99.9% of the other channels on EFnet.

Well I think you have a one two punch here.

Really the lindens have set themselves up for this by taking the position they have with respect to discispline. Any disciplinary action taken by LL towards a resident is shrouded in secrecey. We do not know exactly what the conduct was that was subjected to discipline, nor do we know what the discisplinary action taken was. The lack of transparencey in the system, makes it feel sort of arbitrary.

Now the lindens start showing up on IRC and talking to the FIC (yesah yeah I know its a muyth lol), who have access there. They all pitch a bitch about resident y and decide he is going to be banned. Boon resident Y gets banned and we never know why.


So the problem for me is not that LL employees talk on the IRC. The problem is that they have no discussions and we have nothing except thier assurances that these discussions do not influence discipline. If the discisppline system were transparent, then this would not be an issue at all-we would knoe the banned conduct. But as it stands, this hush hush cloak and dagger discipline, coupled with quasi-secret IRC channels can lead to the impression of abuse.

Ultimately these things are never about what actually occurs, but only about what might possibly occur.

I've never been banned from any game or known anyone who was... Out of curiosity, does any game company have a transparent banning process?

It amuses me that most of the loudest voices in this thread actually know the least about the channel given that they don't actually use it. It's amazing how people will swallow a one-sided story.

I certainly didn't say that. In the end, ALL I'm saying is that there is a risk associated with having Lindens speak as Lindens in an unofficial channel. No more, no less. I'm certainly not arguing against the IRC channel nor against lindens participating.