Should LL Participate in Resident Abuse?

So if the Lindens started their own channel, you would be ok with some Lindens hanging out in #SecondLife as well?

Not sure what the point would be. That'd be like lindens posting on SLUniverse. Why confuse the community?

Let's have a central resource we can go to and not have to wander around the metaverse looking for lindens.

To be frank, I'd like to see the lindens pull out of IRC altogether and hang out in SecondLife somewhere.

I don't get where the concept that getting in touch with a Linden is so difficult:

FIND ---> PEOPLE ---> LINDEN ---> SEARCH ---> IM.

There, its THAT easy. Anyone can contact a Linden. Jeebus, they have frickin' toll free phone numbers in the US / Canada / UK / Australia.

The CEO gives out his email address FREELY, encourages people to email him with ideas, questions, complaints, anything - and he replies individually!

There are more people banned from these forums than the #secondlife channel - its time to get over this idea that OMG, YOU MUST BE PART OF CIENNA'S INNER CIRCLE to talk to a Linden. That's the idea that's trying to be espoused here, and its utter BS.

Hank, we've always gotten along, but in response to your query: the actions you were taking were a lot like a griefer, going to relays in foreign countries, etc. I'm not going to get involved, but acting like the victim here isn't going to work for either side.

Regards,

-Flip

Man if you think LL does what it wants... I just came form 7 years of EQ. LL is about 100 Times more responsive then SoE on its best day.

Why should being a Linden exempt you from taking part in real life? Because that's what the likes of you and Prok seem to want.

Wrong.

If you want to read and participate in IRC discussions you need to get permission first from the channel OP of #secondlife

They happen to give that permission out to a lot of people, but you still need permission.

LL should just pull out of IRC and start moving this all in world.

So much energy is spent on the forums and IRC - it should be spent in world. The opportunities for discussion and dialog would be much cooler if we were all in world and avatar to avatar.

Unfortunately, LL doesn't have the vision (nor do a lot of people around here) too make that happen. Which is pretty darned sad considering they came up with this whole thing.

If they have to, they should create a full repeater against IRC so you can integrate it into SecondLife, that way people could use IRC if they must.

Blaze, stop trolling.

You know as well as anyone that SL isn't a good general purpose communication tool. There is no "global chat".

#Secondlife is the global chat of the grid. If anything, LLab should develop a thin IRC client to attach to the SL client and foster this communication even more.

But alas, people like you and Hank want to restrict the flow of information to "official" channels, decreed by official company spokesmen, sitting atop ivory towers with no two-way dialog.

That sucks. Look at any EA game for examples.

In a roundabout way, the problem is neither the existence of the IRC channel nor the fact it's a non-Linden-controlled one. It is the fact that the high popularity and visibility of the Lindens in the channel on such a long-term basic causes it to be a de-facto 'official' mechanism for communication with the Lindens.



And very very much in line with virtually every other sensible corporate entity in existence. You take a look at the public relation strategy of nearly any high-visibility corporation, and you'll find draconian rules that severely limit the socializing of employees with the customers. And yes, though it is impossible to enforce completely, it's far from unheard of to see an employee suspended or dismissed for inadvertently mixing their professional and social roles.



It is a boon only to those that are aware of the IRC 'back door communications' channel to the Lindens. Cienna's channel in itself is a benefit to those that are aware of it, but the Lindens presence - official or not - is inappropriate.



On the other hand, it would underscore the ongoing problem that LL has with carrying on viable and equal-opportunity communications with their customer base. That in itself would put pressure on LL to offer a communications form that allows LL employees to act in the explicit role of LL representative, rather than the current LL-employee-yet-also-a-social-individual mixup thaat is going on. If this means that the LL employee uses an alias, then fine - it also means that they are acting in a personal role, not a company-related role, and therefore anything they do in said alias is a personal responsibility.

None of this is rocket science. It falls easily under the topic of 'conflict of interest', and all it takes is a few simple policy changes to prevent one's professional role from being abused/confused with their personal role.


- Newfie

Huh. I wouldn't have thought folks would be comfortable with this. But I would be fine with it.

I don't agree.

Speaking as a long time resident and long time forum poster, this is the first I have heard of this chat channel in this context. I have heard that there were "private" IRC channels and that occaisionaly Lindens *might* peruse them, but if even half of what Hank says here is true this is highly innapropriate behaviour for LL employees to engage in.

I am truly shocked that LL would *let* their employees knowingly participate in these sorts of lists. We all know that this kind of "extra-corporate" communication happens, but for it to be known about an sanctioned is just not right. For it to happen on a list controlled by private clients of said corporation is beyond the pale, it realy is. I have never worked for any corporation or company, private or public that would allow this kind of thing to go on, it's 100% unethical from my point of view.

Suppose you are a customer of Exxon (any other company or corporation will do), and you find out as one of their (you thought) "good" clients, that there was a private or secret group run by another one of their clients and that some of the VP's of Exxon were a part of this group and regularly showed up there?

Why wouldn't this lead you to believe that there was an "inner circle" (FIC) amoungst the clients of said ocrporation? It's pretty clear that there is to me. Even if there is no actual favoritism involved, no decent buisness would touch this with a ten foot pole just for the appearance of said behaviour.

In the real world, an employee might show up on one of these lists "undercover" using a fake name and no one can stop that, but the fact that LL knows about this and actually condones it means they should stop it immediately IMO. No corporate investor or fund administrator would invest in a company that had such poor ethics as to engage in this sort of thing, I wonder if LL's investors know about it?

Someone please expain to me why this is *not* 100% unethical corporate behaviour.

This is such a stupid thread.

I would like to take this moment to assign some of the aforementioned #SecondLife Linden visitors their new assumed names.

Philip Linden - SoEdible
Robin Linden - l33t_chick
Vektor Linden - TehBrain
Ben Linden - CAGirl16
Phoenix Linden - Mr_Tibbs
Kelly Linden - Pwnz0rs

Perhaps this is really about the transition of a small software company to a corporate entity.

If LL really wants to grow Second LIfe into the gigantic big moneymaking deal they seem to want it to be, then they have to *act* like a corporation or company acts.

This kind of behaviour is "cool" in the small cool software company, and I wish I was cool enough myself or an early enough adopter of Second Life to be there for that. In fact, I wish they would drop all this corporate monetising bull and go back to the small company they were.

In today's Second Life (the moneymaking corportate SecondLife) however, this comes across very differently indeed. I dont see how private discussions with a select group of favoured clients can be tolerated in a corporate environment.

But is it true that you get to decide who can and cannot talk to Lindens in that venue?

Its funny you bring up ExxonMobil, as they are actually a customer of my RL company. The behavior you describe exists, and its up to ExxonMobil to decide at what level they allow their employees the freedom to interact with clients, vendors and customers. There's no hidden agenda, but fostering relationships on a personal level with clients and / or customers is always a good way to build efficiencies into any business model. The same holds true here.

And let's just say it: a major attraction of the #secondlife channel isn't the Lindens at all, its a place where hard-core geeks can speak in hard-core geek techno-babble and not get stared at like we're speaking Swahili. Some people really hate that.

Why is this not unethical behavior? I believe the Lindens *should* encourage their employees to interact with their customers in any way they can, using any communication channels available. Keeping their finger on the pulse of the different subcultures of SL is crucial to its long term success. ANYONE - even people without SL account - can join the channel. Any bannings in that channel happen far, far less frequently than in Second Life or the forums. People are only banned (all five of them) when they cause severe disruption to the channel.

From the reaction of some in this thread, you would think that the #secondlife IRC channel is the only way to contact a Linden. This is far from the case. Its merely one medium. Let me list some others:

- email (philip@lindenlab.com)
- these forums (specifically Hotline to Linden)
- SLUniverse (its well known the Lindens peruse Snapzilla and SLU)
- telephone (toll free numbers on three continents)
- town halls
- instant messages in-world (Find -> People -> Linden -> Search -> IM)
- chat in-world (The Welcome Area, Ambleside)
- in person

There's eight additional ways just off the top of my head. If Lindens were unable to be contacted, as is the case with many MMOGs, in any way... and they started hanging in the IRC channel? Then I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, I think this is just someone with sour grapes.

Why don't you hop on the channel? Its really quite friendly and I've gotten great help there when I've had tech questions in the past. I've made some very good friends there.

Regards,

-Flip

I don't understand how people can continue to call this, "a select group of favored clients". Anyone with a web browser and an Internet connection - minus the five banned people, four of whom are banned from SL - can access the channel at any time. Here are a few ways:

- Download an IRC client
- Use the web chat interface at SLUniverse: http://www.sluniverse.com/chat.html
- Use the EFnet web chat interface: http://chat.efnet.org/irc.cgi?adv=1

Pretty much everyone is welcome, and we encourage people to stop by! It is also completely untrue that Cienna has to give "permission" to people to talk to the Lindens. Try it. Log in to the channel right now, and say hello, and you'll see. You can just log in, and start chatting away.

Regards,

-Flip

Sorry, Flipper. The difference lies not in the sending, but in the lack of response. I'm guessing that your post here indicates that you must be responded to using these avenues of communication. I have used im's, the forum pm's and emails with only limited success. I have always been polite, am considerate of one's time, and have included statements like "at your convenience", "please", and "thank you". I do not expect anyone to drop everything to attend to me. The only private messages which I have sent and have yet to be read are to Lindens. I never got the 2 hours with the linden which I won at the charity auction. I had wanted to utilize that time towards the Hurricane Relief fundraising efforts.

I am currently waiting on an action with a linden after a conversation in im on the 2nd. I sent an email reminder as requested that day and a followup email the following week. All correspondences have been regarding support for the fundraising effort not for any request regarding my personal account. I'm pretty low maintenance that way, beyond receiving my monthly tier, they don't hear from me. I even tried to contact the concierge Linden, since I qualify for that service, to see if I could apply it towards the relief effort issues I was trying to get addressed but that im was not answered.

I really didn't intend to discuss this here, but your naivete in presenting your belief that your access is the same as it is for others indicates that you are out of touch with the reality which exists for others. I don't have a problem viewing LL as a company and, as such, it identifying and working with those individuals and groups whom it has identified to be capable and reliable in order to get their job done. I'm not shocked and outraged by this, but the pretense that it doesn't exist is really a bit much.

Except me of course, and anyone else that is deemed a "griefer"! Not that they would listen to me anymore since the FIC crew has labeled me a griefer, a liar, someone not to be trusted, etc.

I guess at some point I was myself FIC, but fell out of favor with the Lindens and seriously had a "falling out" with several high-profile FIC members. When the whole FIC thing came out, I looked at myself and said, yeah, we do get special access here in the EFnet #secondlife room.

This is really hard for me in that I find myself agreeing with blaze Spinaker and Newfie Pendragon, and emphatically dissagreeing with people like Aimee, FLip, Lordfly and all the other FIC types, but this is just wrong. You people are so flattered by all the attention that you just dont see what little Linden attention whores you have become.

Sure, anyone can join if they know about it and then if they fit themselves into the little "in-crowd" this seems to be. I am coming up on one year in the game and have posted in the forums for the majority of that time and I did not "know about it." No one ever gave me the secret wink, nod or whatever it takes or pointed me in the direction of this list.

Newfie is absolutely right in his description of this being classic unethical corporate behaviour. And isn't it interesting how no one has substantially replied to his/her remarks. There are no shades of grey here. I guess no one here has ever worked for a company with ethics guidleines? Are you all still in high school or something?

Until today I never really truly believed in the FIC. Now I find that all those people who were previously pasted with the FIC label are actually regularly on an IRC channel with the Lindens? I am quite outraged.

How do you *really* think that looks?
I mean take off the FIC hat for a second and look at it from the rest of us's point of view. Jeez!

Now I know why I can post forever on the forums and yet never be accepted by the "in" crowd.

This is like High School cliques all over again.

Down with the FIC!
Bring back Prokofy Neva!

Just as much as we get to decide who can't annoy and troll everyone else in that channel. The Linden presence is minimal at best and honestly they can leave and it won't really effect a thing. This also isn't the only channel that Lindens are in, either, but god forbid Hank mention #teensl and the like, because he really just wants to focus on attacking certain people under the guise of false concern.

Also, for the record, Blaze has been in the IRC channel and been able to speak for quite some time. however he never really said much of anything. There's no 'permission' being granted. You show up and talk. If someone is causing a problem, they're removed. To date, there's only been five people in two years who are on the permanent ban lists -- which is rather low for a channel of that size, for those not familiar with IRC. Two people have come back after being banned after correcting their abusive behavior. This current problem was a final straw over someone repeatedly abusing everyone and now they want to whip you and others up into thinking there's a conspiracy because he thinks it'll somehow hurt that channel backl, even if he has to violate the TOS to do so by linking off-site to name names.

The reality of the situation is that the Linden presence, while nice to have more people to speak to, are not required. I think the most the Linden presence has ever really given beyond idle chatter is they may announce the grid is up or they'll verify a bug. Which really isn't any different than many game related channels I've been in where the company would be present from time to time (This isn't the first nor last, contrary to Dianne's tirade). It's also been no secret where this channel has been located, since it's been mentioned here a good handful of times. This isn't like some secret cabal that we're hiding. Feel free to search for 'IRC' here. It's also linked to elsewhere, if I'm not mistaken.

If they wish to set up their own channel, that's also fine, like anyone else can -- and have. From my understanding someone set up their own IRC network just for SL and likely have other TG Lindens there, like they were on #teensl and the like. If they choose to leave entirely, that's also fine -- None of this is going to change Hank being allowed to come back and abuse people, which is what triggered this whole vindictive handwaving and rabble rousing.

If ya'll still think this is a terrible crime, then there's really nothing I or anyone else can say to that. The Lindens will stay or go as they please and that channel will continue to run no matter that outcome and you can drop by if you'd like.

This is a really stupid thread.

Search for 'IRC' here. There's several threads discussing it. There's also links around to it. It was never hidden. Also, Prokofy was in the IRC channel, so they knew about it as well.

YOU'RE A STUPID THREAD

<3

Let me stop reading this thread here to say - unbefrickinlievable.

Understand now, everyone, I don't think the Lindens are bad people in any way whatsoever. I think they are absolutely terrific, nearly all of them! I think they have our best interests at heart, want us to have fun, and all of that sort of thing. They would be lovely guests at dinner and fine folks to know. I have enjoyed all my interactions with them, and they are just great people.

All of that. With me so far?

But - they are also completely corrupt. This channel you speak of in this thread is just another example. They are corrupt through and through, to an almost hopeless degree. Corrupt.

Now, before you get excited (or Jeska, or any Linden reading this, if any do), let me say it is possible to be totally corrupt while still being completely NON-evil.

How? Through complete and total ignorance of how easily a laissez-faire policy can grow into corruption. And through shirking their duties as leaders of a world, with the responsibilities thereof to EACH AND EVERY RESIDENT.

We are long past the stage of 4k players with a few who hang out together with the Lindens. The Lindens should have NO presence in any resident endeavor that either (a) bans other residents or (b) bashes other players.

NO presence. NONE. Am I making myself clear on that? NONE.

NEVER.

If you fear that something wonderful will be lost adopting a new (reasonable) policy like this, you are wrong. There still remain dozens of ways to contact Lindens. Dozens of ways to interact with Lindens. Nothing in the way of accessibility will be lost.

But with 90k+ players, you simply can't go on meeting with a few in a special place, when that few are able to ban others. You can't go on holding special pow-wows to have privileged talks with some residents, while those same residents can ban others. And it simply isn't possible to get around to everyone's private IRC and spend equal amounts of time there.

The Lindens have got to stop turning a blind eye to the goings-on of their populace. They have a HUGE populace, and they owe it to each and every one of us to be fair and impartial.

If they want a chat channel to talk with people on, they should make their own. If they already have their own, they should stick to it. They should never, ever, ever in a million years, be associated with any resident endeavor that is not open to all.

Why not? Because, much as we may not want to admit this, they are NOT one of us. They are Lindens. They need to recognize that and accept that responsibility.

coco