Overactive Security Scripts

Hmm... I can honestly say that I don't look out the windows... since I do a lot of building on my roof.

See, indoor building isn't that much good when the objects are taller tha your home. And you don't need to concentrate on the view to be able to appreciate it in the background as you do something else. (unless you have tunnel vision... which you seem to be implying people have)*sigh* a couple of pages back, I had exactly the same argument with someone... and I gently pointed out that I'm talking about privacy in smaller areas around the private residences.

Kindly bring your argument back to what we're talking about, rather than using a previously debunked argument. (or, you could try reading what people post... both work fine with me)Not to put too fine a point on it, but I've not seen that many Lindens going snooping around or griefing... have you?

I'm sure I've got a bale of hay in my inventory somewhere... I'm guessing you must be needing some more soon.
Maybe because the ones who want privacy OWN THE SODDING LAND?

Their land, their rights... not yours.

I built a little platform at about 500m above my land simply so I can build without the camera disappearing round walls. If someone happens to want to come and see what I'm doing... big deal, is it the end of the world? No.

You say you don't get many visitors that aren't griefers where you are? With your attitude, I'm not surprised. You do realise that the one thing that is likely to irritate people to want to have a look at something to find out what's so important to be protected and hidden is an overzealous security script? Most people will take a look at something then move on, if it catches their eye; its only when it irritates me that I go back for a second look to find out what's going on.

Lewis

So you don't mind being spied on...? Personally, I don't like it.
*sigh* we protect the privacy around our home only... the land is open to anyone to come and see the rather beautiful sea view...
The only people we get to see at the height we live at are normally griefers or nosy people... both are the people we don't want around, thank you very much.
At ground level, we're getting enough people turning up just to have a look at the view that our traffic is rivalling some malls now...
Visitors stumbling on our home? Not many... Visitors to our land? Quite a few.

What was that about attitude again?

Sorry, but if you're rude enough to spy on someone, then you're rude enough to get your ass ejected.

I can't believe you've just admitted that you will deliberately invade someone's privacy just to satisfy your own nosy tendancies... that is rude and classed as... you guessed it, griefing.

No, griefing is affecting you in some way, like a push script.

Merely passing by or having a quick look is NOT griefing.

If you wish to put a 50m high pornographic picture on open view outside of your house, then you'll soon see how your 'privacy' stands - it is a reportable offence, even on Mature land. Remember you don't own the view out of your land, so neither can you consider it wrong for anyone to look in at anything you place on public view.

Sometimes people don't even know their security is causing problems to others - so the only way is to 'intrude' and let them know. Doing that once is acceptable, repeatedly doing it is not.

Lewis

Yay for the morality police!!

"Don't mind me, I'm not invading your privacy, I'm just checking you're a good moral christian!"

I hope you never try that in RL lewis, it can be dangerous.

But you're not talking about passing by or having a quick look, are you? You're talking about deliberately invading someone's privacy to spy on them and/or something they are wanting to keep private.

Oh, and having someone floating there, spying on you, is very much harassment... since you have classed harassment as griefing, spying on someone is griefing. (or are you now changing your tune on that, since you are the one who is in the wrong now?)And we agree that things on public view are on public view... but we're not talking about public view, are we?

What about things inside private buildings? Is that public view? Is it perfectly ok for someone to nosy about, looking inside private buildings?

Please answer that question, since it's relevent to the topic... whereas talking about looking at public stuff isn't...
And you said something about going back a second time, intruding just so you can satisfy your curiosity? Isn't that what you just said was not acceptable?

Nothing is stopping you from getting together with the other 'like minded residents' and buying yourself an island, or several. Its a concept that seems to have worked well for the Furries and Gor people.

I can't see it working on the mainland though, LL have pretty much stayed clear of 'zoning' the mainland, other than isolated sims like boardman, and I'm not sure you'll find enough people that are worked up about the issue enough to justify more than a sim or two anyway.

Which is still irrelevant. All griefing tools can be traced to LL. So?



Sure it's griefing. You let someone on your land and then instantly eject them when they get there. That's not protecting yourself; that's griefing.

HP

Trespassing on someones land is also griefing, if you want to take it to such silly extremes...

If you go onto someone's land, you accept the rules that they have laid down. If they have been pushed to the point that they feel the need to instantly eject you should you get too close, then that is a possibility you have accepted simply by being on their land.



By the way... I am losing any sympathy I once had for the "I wanna fly anywhere without being annoyed" brigade thanks to the constant whinging about a minor inconvenience caused by griefers and by the insistance on calling the victims of griefing griefers...

People using scripts have compromised by almost always using delay/warnings... be greatful of that, since we didn't have to!

That would be the problem. Not only am I removed from the vehicle, but I'm typically nowhere near it and have to go searching.



And like I pointed out to Jonas before, that's irrelevant. Yes I do classify that griefing. If you sit on your property waiting for people to stroll by, and then the moment someone does you click a button and TP them home just for the fun of it, that's griefing.



The idea of giving someone a warning as described before is a reasonable compromise. Insta-eject is not.




I support giving people a chance to fly by.

I also support LL implementing privacy controls that give you everything you would like.



I'm someone who uses SL just like everyone else here and someone who has the reasonable expectation to not be griefed by security scripts.



If you can't see how instantly ejecting someone just trying to fly by is griefing, then I doubt there's anyway I can explain it to you.



I understand. I'm just on the other side of the coin. I've had enough griefing from the insta-eject security scripts.

We're getting nowhere fast here. I'll grant you that getting dumped out of the vehicle flying isn't nearly as bad as having your place shot up by griefers for days on end, but I still consider it griefing itself.

I do believe the the warning idea is a reasonable compromise because for someone to put on a sustained griefing attack, they'd have to have lots of alts or friends. Or stand just outside your property line. And if that's the case, then there's a bigger problem that just the security script.

I know it sounds like I might be unsympathetic. I'm really not and I'm really sorry you had to go through all that griefing. You've argued with me fairly here and I appreciate that and I'm sure you're in the right in the dispute your having with the griefers.

It's just that I'm on the other side of the coin and have had enough.

HP

I think it is worth a try and it is not as easy as you think to get like minded people tougher! For it to be truly effective Linden Labs would have to help. There could be boating Sims as well!



Why would it bother you if Linden Labs makes a landmass as a "flyers" homeland? You could still tp, eject or whatever to innocent flyers over your land. I still say it has to do with controlling others not privacy.



I like to think my proposal has the benefit of defusing a problem instead of continuing the conflict between groups of non compatible people.

I am not grateful and by the way you are banned from my land and airspace. You would have 6 seconds to clear out before being "sent home" Sorry! It is within the TOS! giggle*** laugh*** more giggling****

There already are. Like-minded people that like to race yachts and stuff have already organised adjoining void sims, and such like. Its a lesson, the flyers could choose to learn from it..

Of course, the other thing the sailing clubs have done, is determined safe routes for races around the mainland, and published them as notecards, again, another lesson that is there for the taking.




Because its zoning, and if you do it for one group, you have to start doing it for other groups, and before you know it, you're in a minority group that isn't welcome in half of the mainland.

Edit: Just to be clear, I have NO problem with the concept of you and like-minded people buying sims and imposing zoning rules, that is perfectly within your rights. What I have a problem with, is the idea of LL pandering to a small group of people by imposing zoning restrictions upon mainland sims that are not specifically owned by the group in question.



Which proposal? Forcing zoning rules on mainland sims to satisfy a small group of people? No ranma, I don't think that is likely to defuse the situation at all... Quite the opposite in fact.

Then moan at LL to make is so people can be ejected without having to unseat them...

Until you do that, you have no call to complain about people using the only eject method available to them.And the idea of giving griefers time to grief before removing them is reasonable then?

Flip side of the coin... time for the innocent to leave is ALSO time for griefers to grief. Insisting on time for one is insisting on time for the other... please understand the implications of your request.Privacy does not equal security! Better privacy controls... hell, any kind of privacy controls will do SFA for security.

I asked you to explain how they could do that, but you never answered... would you like to do so now?But you are also someone who wants griefers to have the time to cause trouble before being ejected... that is NOT a reasonable expectation.If you can't see that any time delay opens the door to griefing, then I doubt you understand the other side of the argument.So your solution is to allow griefers time to grief...

Yes, I can see you understand the other point of view.Lesser of two evils... there is no perfect solution, accept this as the best compromise and move on, or keep insisting on someone chancing a greater grief so you don't chance a lesser grief...

And you say you're being reasonable...About 2 seconds to fire enough objects that will kill any fps, push anyone there all over the place, and keep on doing just that for however long they've been set for...

A sustained griefing attack does not require the griefer be there for every second of it, nor does it require a large number of people. A single person with a few seconds of "safe" time is more than capable of causing a LOT of grief...


But that's a reasonable compromise, isn't it?
Suffer from a griefing attack, and then tell me that being ejected on the odd occasion is being griefed...

I can tell that you've never been on the receiving end of such an attack. You're lack of understanding of just how bad it is speaks volumes, and shows how little you really understand my points.

Putting the script on, stopping people from being able to just mosy on through has reduced the griefing problem so much, it's almost none existant here... they cannot grief us unless they are very determined, and no amount of "I wanna fly through here" will get us to change the settings... to do so is to invite the griefing back.



And if I sound angry, it's because I am... every single "stop the security script" post is telling me I should accept the griefing I suffered from. It simply says to me "you MUST stay a victim and must NOT protect yourself"

Thanks, but I think I'd rather not be a victim just so someone can have their jollies...

Well this forum has run its course. I do not expect any type of agreement among the residents and think it has an opposite effect.

As of now Second Life is like the "Wild West" with no real controls to provide harmony among the residents. The experiment is still in progress!

Are you asking me how LL could implement better privacy controls to aid with griefing?

Well, I mentioned this before but here goes again. Allow people to extend the ban area all the way up to top build height (768m). Better yet, allow land owners 2 or 3 or so ban zones. Each ban zone has a top and bottom altitude and covers the whole property. This lets people put a different level of security on their skybox than they do on their home on the ground. Only have you and your friends on the access list; everyone else is banned.

From your point of view wouldn't that be at least as good as insta-eject (perhaps better since you don't have to wait for the script to kick in)? It's certainly better than the delay I want. And, it's better for me since I'll just bounce off or see it and fly around.

HP

I'm sure it won't stop flyers whining though, I mean, if they can't be bothered to fly around obvious sky boxes, why are they likely to avoid tiny red lines ?

To be honest, I doubt LL will change things enough for it to make any impact on the security orb situation for a long time, simply because security orbs are thousands of times more flexible, even than the features you're proposing. And unless LL remove the functions that the security scripts depend on, which isn't likely to happen, then people will just take the security orbs with their issues over, or in addition to, any improved land tools.

I agree with this, ban lines are best! They allow you the privacy ones to have your privacy and allow flyers the right to fly without getting, ejected, pushed or sent home. They can be secure from griefers at last!

Most flyers dont want to fly over your graces land anyway! My Tarn does not like the atmoshpere within such places! We dont want to bother you and we in turn dont want to get bothered by those anoying messages! This is a win/win!

Guess I mis-understood what you were meaning as privacy controls... I would have classed that as security with a bit of privacy thrown into the mix.


Anyway, yes... that would work, and work well... as well as removing all but one need for the scripts.
Since there have been times we've had to 'port in a customer at very short notice, so having it on friends list only wouldn't work that well for us... but if there was a very quick and easy way to add them to the allow list... /me hints to LL about this...
But why we'd still need scripts is for the poor sods who rent... they've got no land tools to protect themselves with, so I can see the scripts still being used... (responsibly, for preference)

Just to make a minor correction... it would allow flyers to fly. They have no *right* to fly over private land...
Not quite... but would be better than the present "you compromise security so we can fly where we want" situation...


Oh, and it's not privacy that's the current issue... it's security. We security peeps want to be free from griefers. It's just a pity that the measures we have to take to do so involve a minor inconvenience to a few others...

Blame the griefers, not the victims.

Only the smallest apartments have that trouble, renters of land can be given land controls at least on the islands and Linden Labs can make it possible for the main land as well.

The L$50 Apartment should not be able to do anything outside of their large space. In other words you get what you pay for!

Do you have to disagree with everthing? Where in this says that flyers can go over land the land owner does not want them to?

I have been hit by griefers too! I do not want to fly over your land! You and others are banned forever from mine! Also anyone else that bothers me This should serve as fair notice to anyone that gets hit by my security system. Not that any is needed Six seconds should be plenty Then it is back home with you. The door opens both ways! I have the same rights as the rest of you! Oh if you lose your vehicile and it is on my land, you better get a Linden to return it to you because I will not.

I feel so much better saying that!

Been thinking, Tuf luck about renters, if they want privacy and security they need to buy land and pay tier like everone else.

Hmmm, Ranma, you do realise you've just announced another way to grief you... there are plenty of freebie aircraft that come with copy perms, so a person could rez as many as they need to, purposefully lose them on your property, and wait til see what happens first, whether Ranma gives in to hitting 'return objects', or whether Ranma learns to live without any free prim allowance

Think it is within the TOS to delete things too This includes "premium" no copy vehicles.



Does not matter, if you do it on purpose it would then be griefing. My "target" list has less than 50 names. Also you would have to know where I live. Not that it matters. No short supply of griefers where I live! The residents next to me are griefers in my book.



Any Linden is it within the TOS to delete objects left on ones land?



Still hope that Jonas's ban line idea gets the approval. Then we both should all be happy! Oh I don’t dislike any of you just have a difference of opinion.



Good fences make peaceful Sims!