Overactive Security Scripts

I don't think anyone has 'right' to enter someone else's residence, if by residence you mean building or at least clearly visible property, especially with some sort of indication tresspasers aren't welcome. What am talking about is going overboard and ejecting people as soon as they as much as place a foot in the area that's "someone's property" when there is not obvious you're actually entering some another plot until it's too late and you already entered it.


Right, because there's never lag in SL, and RL airliners never crash due to bad conditions. oh, wait.

You can't "fly slower" when the SL server decides to take it's regular unscheduled nap and/or get's overloaded thanks to someone with 600+ scripts loaded in their custom shape avatar, and you're left unable to control your movement (meaning, no ability to slow down and let server catch up) for long stretches of time. Now, am not saying something this extreme is something for security scripts to take into account, but then don't tell me it's something that doesn't happen, nor that i can actually do something to avoid it. It's not my video card that controls it.


I don't even fly, since i prefer walking and/or direct TP. Just recently while taking stroll down a street i was left with no control over my movement, and the server made me pass the line onto someone's ground, and even though there was ample time given to go back (10 secs or so) i couldn't do anything but smack right into that person's half-rezzed at this point wall. (i think the security script trigered by then, but never got to see it because random TP i issued finally fired up as well and moved me out) ... Now note, this was at _walk speed_ i.e. about as slow as you can go.

Do i "expect sympathy"? No, and i don't blame the security script for trying to do its work in that case, it was set up in more than reasonable manner. It's simply to show you cannot offer me here a sage advice what to do to never have any sort of performance problem in a game which is run on someone else's server and over unpredictable 'net connections.


I think 6 seconds is fine in regular conditions, and 10 is more than generous (in the "whoa, it must be really nice and considerate people living here" way) ... again, i have nothing against security scripts if they announce themselves and give some chance to react, and if lag happens to get me so i have no way to react in time... well it's unfortunate but not up to the property owner. Just please don't tell me it's something that *i* could've done something about, either ^^;


I think i described badly what i had in mind... was thinking of script that would still move you out if after the few given seconds of time you're still in its area, but one that would take action _faster_ than the time it gives, if it noticed the trespasser getting closer rather than out. So moving closer then back out would give you no benefit, the script would both see you approach it (and likely boot you right then) or after these few seconds it'd boot you anyway no matter your direction, simply because you used all the time you were given.

In other words, the focus wouldn't be really on "are they trying to leave the area" but rather on "are they still moving in despite the warning", giving better protection to the land owner rather than more leeway to tresspasser.


Well, this seems like bit of problem with the coding of security system i think. If it actually detects someone who is not on their 'allowed' list, i'd expect it to start running sweeps more frequently until they leave the area one way or the other, then switch back to the idle state. Since it's just for a few seconds anyway, it shouldn't affect the sim performance much, while removing the sort of effect you speak of ^^;


Am looking into LSL at the moment, and while yes, it's rather clumsy, keeping track on some number of most recent visitors (so you can easily tell who should have their warning time shortened on their entry) doesn't seem to be something beyond its abilities... ^^;;

Unfortunately, I have had people say to me, after being ejected on a 6s script that it 'isn't enough', then they proceed to argue that they need 30s, 45s, whatever silly time, *they* think suits them. Meanwhile, I've had griefers show up and plant bombs in less time than the smallest time they'd be willing to live with *sigh*.

Its quite annoying really, the people that *demand* more time, often complain about the selfishness of the land owner. Personally, I find that the concept of requiring I be griefable on land I pay for, just so they can fly around my land as if they own it, quite selfish.



What you're describing is a quite complex system, the only way to have it work without relying on llSensorRepeat's rate, is going to be to co-ordinate several sensors and thus several scripts, and that is a lot of complexity - and complexity generally means more areas for an exploit to exist.



Tearing down and rebuilding llSensorRepeats every time someone enters the range, almost certainly is going to affect sim performance, I'm afraid.

Most security scripts rely on a fairly simple premise... they start llSensorRepeat when they are turned on, with the 'warning time' used for the repeat rate. Locktite may do this differently, which may be why you have to choose the warning time at the time of purchase.



Its not impossible, just a pain, it means keeping long lists of things, and manually finding places in those lists, then dealing with delete/modify situations, which work on lists, so you need to build more lists.

The end result is, that you see your memory free for the script dwindle, so much so that a script that maintains several lists of people and when they were last seen, where, etc, might reduce the number of people the security script can handle to 10 or so.

Then you've just introduced a weakness in your script - get more than 10 people there, and the script will misbehave or, possibly, stop working all together. Even worse if you want those lists to remain across sensor sweeps, say, for the lifetime of the script, that means your security orb may well stop working as soon as its seen 10 people, and require a restart.

Its like the 'increase the sensor range to 96m, but only behave on the inputs when you see their intention at 40m or such' suggestion; Its all well and good, until you realise that you've now made your security script completely useless - all a griefer group need do is get 16 members within that 96m range, then have a 17th member do whatever they want, as the sensor won't see them at all. Then there's the effectiveness of such sensors when you're on land near a popular attraction or club.. Your neighbour may well have 16 people on their land to start with, so your script *never* sees anyone entering your land....

I care what goes on at my home in sl when I'm not there. As to the 'not owned' argument: I rent an apartment in rl. I can kick someone out of said apartment and 'ban' them by locking the doors. Even when I'm not home.

I rent the land form LL, in effect, and thus have renters rights. LL has cleared the use of security scripts for players, this players can use security scripts within renters rights. This includes ejecting you without warning.

As someone who has been griefed many times, I KNOW there is no justification for stopping people using security...To repeat something that I said earlier... to be flying around and to suddenly be confronted by a large and bloody obvious private residence at 300M, it is only polite to change your course...

Oh, and to suddenly see "you will be tp'h home in ***" before you see the property is a very good indication that you are either a: Flying way too fast, (in which case, you have only yourself to blame) b: suffering from some very extreme lag, (blame the internet/SL for that, not the scripts) or c: have your draw distance down too low. (your problem again... increase it)

Then again, you could be doing all 3 at once... in that case, are you sure that flying is even something you should be trying?Well, I have this rather strange reaction to random strangers coming up and using my stuff while I'm not there... it makes me feel sick inside.

Kinda the same way I feel if I find out someone's been playing with my washing when it's drying outside... (I can just see the "but you're not in the clothes" idea really working there):BZZZT: WRONG!

Land owners can ban who they like from their land for any reason they can think of... and it's all allowed by ToS and CS.
Banning someone from your land is not and never has been griefing, except in the minds of those who demand the right to go where they feel.
I don't understand the need to do something that will annoy others anyway because it's an online game. If you want to do what you like, log out and go play an offline game or something...

Just to point out that not only is the orb set to 34M, 60M away from the sea, but it's ALSO 300M up in the air...

If you're sailing into that, then you've *really* got some major problems there.

Ah, Love, in fairness, I didn't point that out, because at the time the argument was made to me, it was when we had the house on the ground

You know, there's something I've never once understood.

A lot of people have more than an average contempt for me because I happen to have some views that people find uncomfortably challenging, and am not afraid to speak my mind - yet not once have I ever been 'griefed'.

I set auto-return on all my land, so prim litter isn't relevant. If I'm there and someone annoys me I can just boot and ban. I have no group deeded land so they can't rearrange my furniture. If Im not there... what can they do?

The point of an online multiplayer game is to interact with other people. Locking yourself away in some skybox kinda defeats the object of logging in.

I think perhaps some of those with these security scripts would be better spending some of their monthly SL money on obtaining help for their paranoia. It's only a game, after all.

Lewis

The point of a private residence in a multiplayer game is just that, private, to interact with only those you want.

If you're going to get upset over an ejection, log off. Its only a game after all.

Hmm a secondary script with smaller radius sensor, which gets toggled by primary script with llSetScriptState() and boots anyone within its range as soon as it spots them (since anyone who gets this close already received the warning from 'mother' sensor) .. extra complexity, sure. But actually complex, i dunno ^^;


Not sure about it, since you can technically just issue llSensorRepeat() with different sweep rate, which --if SL is coded with any sense-- should just reuse existing sensor and merely adjust the variable(s) controlling it... so no allocations, dealocations and all that fun. I'll have to check that in some spare time.


A work for separate script -- maintain the list, update it with names received from primary script and return the value by how much the warning time should be shortened, if the name is found in its records. Leaves the main script all resources it'd need, and you get all nice extra flexibility.


Well leaving aside that if you managed to piss off enough people to make at least 17 of them bunch up against you, then i'd say this is a problem beyond functionality of any script... note the suggestion about script working at two ranges doesn't need to be fixed to 100 m range. You can as well set these ranges to whatever, just have the 'tight security' sensor cover bit smaller inside area so that there actually is any indication of "you're about to get booted, move out" before you actually do get booted out with no questions asked ^^;;

I disagree. As someone who enjoys appreciating the architectural talent that many people in SL possess, if I see something in the distance that looks interesting, then I will go and have a look at it. Perfectly innocent, perfectly legitimate, yet you cross an unknown, imaginary, unmarked boundary ... and you get hit with a security script. Are you seriously telling me that you have never, once, stopped to take a second look at something that caught your eye?

Incidently, you own the land, not the airspace above it from ground to 768m altitude. There are many reasons for flying at altitude - less lag, for one - and there is no set 'window of opportunity' that you can be guaranteed to fly at without any risk of intrusion.

I don't suppose anyone ever considered that building a house, at ground level, and using the "Ban lines" - ugly as they are - is the most effective and trouble free system of all? Why not lower the land under your ground as far as it'll go, and build a basement under the house that nobody can see or get to as your 'secret place' to do whatever shenanigans you want to get up to in your assumed privacy - and won't interfere with anyone else in any way.

One of SL's big failings is the lack of infrastructure and rights of way for those who wish to explore and utilise the many ways of transport available rather than simply p2p everywhere. Unfortunately it doesn't look like it's an issue that they consider important enough to lay down some guidelines over.

Lewis

Its not about pissing off a bunch of people, its about pissing off one, who has connections to a griefing group.

Thats how our griefing problems started, one person, one mafia group, lots of griefers.

The problem is, the people that seem to find fun in making other people's second lives less fun, all seem to group together quite often. So you tend to find those people that *want* to cause you grief, are going to be members of at least a few groups that will be more than willing to round up 16+ people to come grief you.. 'because its fun' to them

If someone fires a weapon at me that pushes me half way across the sim, that is controlling my avatar in a way that I did not intend to, and is considered griefing and reportable.

If someone repeatedly messages me and interacts with me in a way that I do not wish, that is harrassment and is reportable.

If someone teleports me home for venturing in an area that is not clearly indicated as not publicly accessible, then that is exactly the same - unwanted control of my avatar and/or functions.

If I fly past your home, I have not affected you in any way whatsoever.

Much of the concern is from people who have lost vehicles having been ejected from them whilst flying - and when many are no copy, when you lose it you lose it, unless you can figure out where you were or the landowner has auto-return set (which is not always the case).

Lewis

Obviously someone at Linden Labs disagrees with you there. Prims above 100m still count against the land total. Our renters rights extend to 768m by how prims are set agaisnt the total and aren't autodeleted or returned. We pay for the whole of the airspace too.

edit: I've been talking about ejection, not teleporting, so Ill ignore that bit of your diatribe. Also, remember if I make my land unsafe and set a nonpush autokill to fire at anyone not on an access list, its within the TOS. If you have passed through and it hits you, no effect if on seafe land so no foul. If on unsafe land, well.. killing IS allowed by the TOS there.

That isn't surprising considering how they attempt to run the game, they really don't have much of a clue - it's all well and good having 'groundbreaking technology' but without a clear plan - as is evidently the case - we're just flapping about like a fish out of water, with so many areas like this unclear.



Then campaign for ban lines to be extended to 768m, and marked on the map as non-accessible area, then there's no problems and no need for these security scripts.

Lewis

I have, its petition 999 if I recall right.

Yeah... if my panties are hanging on the washing line, what does it matter if someone comes along and starts playing with them...?Does it? Does having a little private time with a couple of friends, showing off your latest stuff, maybe demonstrating some work in progress really sound like you're not interacting with other people?

Maybe, just maybe, one of the objects to logging in is to do a little private creating... but then that's not part of the game, is it... since the only point to SL is to interact with others.

I can see you've really thought about this... not.
Yes yes... it's just a game.

Perhaps those who see it as just a game should log off and try thinking about how it is so much more...

As I said earlier in the thread. BAN LINES DO NOT WORK on our property, unless we are willing to pancake the land.

The land parcel differs by approximately 38m from front to back, from around 5m ASL to 43m ASL. If I enable banlines then the back end of the property which is the largest piece, and thus the natural place you're going to build the house, has approximately 2m of ban line.

Besides all that, I have the land left in its natural state (well, ok, smoothed the hillside a little), but with a bench added. Anyone that wants to stop and watch the sunset over the sea, can. I could just blanket ban people from a beautiful view, but why should I? and why should I sacrifice my privacy when I am in our residence for sake of that?

Lewis, you often suggest that LL should encourage 'builds for the sake of their beauty', that everything being private or commercial is a bad thing. So what is it? would you prefer I ban everyone from my land for sake of privacy, or would you prefer that there is some place where people can enjoy a nice sunset for free?

Ouch i see... didn;t think of that and yup, looks like a problem. But wouldn't this kind of organized griefing be something you'd rather have LL deal with for good, by removing the offenders? I mean, that goes quite beyond any sort of 'accident' or whatever so, can't be played down as such... o.O

You AR and you AR, and you hope/wish that LL will discipline. They usually don't... In the meantime, what do you do? Secure your property with an orb? or just let them grief you?

Besides which, even if LL discipline the individuals - they don't discipline griefing groups as far as I'm aware, at all; You're still on the hitlist of that griefing group at the end of it, they may still come back and try again, just because its fun.

From a distance lad... not going right up and pressing my virtual nose to it!

Then again, I'm polite about it...WRONG!

You own the land, you are paying for that part of the sim... and that means ALL of that part of the sim. Since it includes all that is above and below the land, you own the airspace too.Yes... and that's one of the risks you take, isn't it?Sorry, but we bought the land we did for the view... Seems rather counter-productive to do that, then block yourself away from the view.

Oh, and since there is someone around here saying that banning people just for entering their land is griefing, the ban lines isn't such a good system...
Here's a guideline for you... Private land means the owner can lay down the law. That right trumps any right of way you think you deserve.

Don't like it? The you'd better log off, since it's built into SL's very core.

If you're concentrating on building something, you aren't looking out of the window at the view are you?



If everyone marked their little plot of land as 'ban all', what an ugly and boring world SL would be. Incidently, your assumed right to privacy is only as far as LL allow you to go with push and suchlike. You can't ban a Linden from your land regardless of what security measures you have, so you have no guarantee of total privacy regardless.



Then it needs to be changed. Much less important things have been changed as the game develops.

You'll probably find that 10% of the playerbase want privacy, 10% want none, and 80% don't care either way. So why should a small % who want privacy win against a probably equal % that don't?

Lewis

If someone uses the ban option on their land, it is controling your AV in a way you do not intend, and is considered griefing and is reportable...

Thank you for your argument against any forms of security, and thank you for arguing for griefers everywhere. You be sure to let LL know that the basic security/privacy controls that landowners have is against ToS.


Oh, and it's a very simple thing to just put a "beacon" script into vehicles so they message you with their location when you "lose" them...

No more lost vehicles mean most of the concern is gone. Now, go find some other problem to bring up that is more than likely already solved!

Not many of them in our little corner lad...
The current traffic is such that for every innocent passer-by, we get around 10 griefers. (and with how we live now, we've managed to cut griefing down a lot)

And once more, since land owners can basically do what they like on their land, warning/ejecting people isn't griefing.
Funny... I create for the fun of it mostly... what I sell, I sell for low prices to cover my monthly tier and to give me a little play money.

Am I missing out? Nope...

They just take the SL out of the group name.