What's so bad about Furries & Goreans anyway?

Don't expell Lit Noir He's a great guy!

The same crap happens IRL. The problem is Humanity not accepting each other.

Example...
Christians don't like some people and try to convert them or just plain out insult them. Those people dislike Christians cuz they get told they are going to burn in hell for being different. While Others tend to think the religion is a cult trying to take over the world.

Another Example...
Governments do not get along well. Each side the citizens believe whatever their government tells them like blind sheep. None of us know whats REALLY going on. So we think the others are the bad guys.

Now in theory, what if IRL we came in contact with a alien race. Would they accept us acting like we do now? Humanity fears what it don't understand and tries to destroy it. I know for a fact that those aliens would have a few missiles launched at them. Then all the aliens have to do then is hit the big red button and our small little world goes boom.

Would you ban me if I dropped by looking for a chinrub? Just checkin'.

Totally agreed, but then we all know that people wont listen and will continue to be stupid till they die because they are afraid to change; afraid to accept they were wrong; afraid to be seen as losers (although they already are)

I'm not Gorean myself. I'm in a D/s relationship which is very different. But I do have friends who are Gorean. While I'm certainly not saying that many of the issues I've seen discussed aren't happening, I really think whether or not one is forced to deal with them is entirely dependent on where you are spending your time and who with.

Recently someone I care very much about and have developed a mother/daughter/friend style relationship with, told me she was moving out of our sim and moving into a Gorean sim where she would begin kajira training. At first of course I wasn't thrilled because I envisioned her seperating from our little family, but I supported her decision and kept my fingers crossed that it would turn out to be the right thing for her. I was not disapointed.

These Goreans invited us over to meet them, made us feel very welcomed. They respected that we are different from them and never told us we needed to do things their way. Now my dear "daughter" is able to go back and forth between her new home and her old one. I have been made to feel I can drop in on her there if I choose. The people so far have been very nice.

I think that the situation with Gor is like any other large group. They have developed a bad reputation because of some very bad apples, but the majority are like anyone else.... just people enjoying the lifestyle or the roleplay they've chosen. And I think that by lumping them all together and saying "Gor is abuse" "Gor is mysoginistic (sp?)" that you do the decent folk just trying to enjoy themselves an unfair disservice.

Anyway, that's my itty bitty two cents.

"Society isn't going to make any progress until we all pretend to like one and other" -Leela (Futurama)


So true... so.. true. >.>

Well first off, Gor IS mysogynistic. there's no doubt about that, that's not being judgemental, that's analyzing the books and the philosophy.

And speaking of this whole "very few bad apples" I think Gor relates best to Furries in this by saying, if I were to collect all the furries in SL and randomly choose one, what's the probability of that one being a "furvert". I'd say odds are good. Does that mean that ALL furries are "furverts"? No, but it does mean quite a bit of them are. Same with Goreans, if I were to group them all and pick one randomly, chances are i'd find someone who takes the whole thing a little bit more seriously then they should, making them the "bad apple" category.

I also think it's interesting to notice that SL is very much about tolerance, to the point that anything besides silent tolerance is considered to be hate speech. A lot of what has been posted here has been criticisms of Gor based on opinions and philosophy, no one (that I remember) on this thread has said Gor should be banned or stopped, or anything besides giving opinions to let us discuss and consider.

But still this whole "intolerance" thing is being thrown around, that we're trying to force Gor to be stopped and make people do what we want.

Tolerance doesn't mean I have to agree with it, it just means I have to deal with it.

Mysogeny is defined as a hatred for women. I have no idea whether Norman himself hated women or not, I never met the man. Personally I found the one book I read in the series to be tedious and poorly written. But to say that Gor itself, the roleplay is mysogenistic just doesn't work when you watch actual Master/slave couples together. Yes I have seen a few I thought would fall into the "I don't want to be around them" category upon first impression. But I've also seen plenty of couples who don't, who are loving and attentive and just enjoying themselves.

I'll refer back to Selador's earlier posting. If you've ever watched a kajira perform a dance and listened to the feedback she recieves from the Masters afterward.... its certainly not hate they're expressing.

The philosophies of Gor I don't happen to agree with.... the idea that all women want to be slaves, i find silly. But it doesn't offend me that people choose to roleplay those philosophies and I would never presume to tell my friends that they're "wrong" for doing it.


True, absolutely true yes. But dealing with it by pointing out what you think is wrong with it isn't dealing, it's judging based on your own perceptions from the outside not your experience with it.
How about just accepting it for what it is.... a thing that reallly doesn't affect you and let folks have their fun.

For the record, the last sentence wasn't necessarily directed at you specifically Artemis but at people in general..... basically live and let live.

I think forcing people into slavery and beating and raping them counts as the "I hate women" category more than just ignoring them.



Yes they desperately try to pass that off as high art, but it's about as artful as the kind of dancing you see at Jim's house of Boobs (full naked erotic dancing). The only thing it's intended to express is an erection. More over, it basically supports the gorean claim that Women are absolutely useless in everything except serving males and sex. Making women in Gor be vaginas with legs and arms.



Oh yeah, ditto. If they were roleplaying this stuff, I don't care too much. Unfortunately they're not always roleplaying and they sometimes legitimately believe this stuff. Those are the ones that I have problems with.

And again, I never said anyone was wrong, I may say I think they're wrong, but I don't say they ARE wrong by all beliefs.




Well there's a fine line there, but first off you've got the idea again that tolerate means "leave alone", which I by the way do. Most of the time I leave goreans alone, this thread is up on the subject of Gor so I post my opinions there, but I don't casually run around criticizing goreans unless they come to my home and expect me to deal with their gorean philosophy. But as I said, I can be tolerant and critical of Gor at the same time, the thing that makes that possible is whether or not that you make it a crusade. This thread is about goreans so I talk about goreans, but I don't generally bring them up in casual conversation and I rarely go to their sims.

And then of course the fine line is what a person looks like they're having fun and when they're really in a dangerous situation. If you know a guy that has a record of beating his girlfriends, and your best friend gets involved with him and they seem to be having fun and like each other, should you tell her? Yes, I think she should atleast know that it's out there before things escalate. I'm not forcing her to leave him i'm just giving her the information and the opinions.

Gor can and has been dangerous for slaves emotionally, i've heard of slaves that'd fallen into deep depressions when their masters (who only think of slaves as objects) leave them, some even getting to the point of attempting suicide. Extreme case? Maybe, but not so extreme that I haven't seen the depression part of it with my own eyes in SL no less than 10 times.

Anyone entering an SL relationship runs the risk that their lover is less emotionally involved, and just like RL, bad judgement has emotional consequences. I find Gor (and SL BDSM and pimp/ho relationships generally) fascinating and a little disturbing as an expression of the present human condition, but it's not all that surprising or hard to understand. The majority of people in contemporary, Western society are conditioned from toddlerhood to express a caricature of gendered behaviour, with the attraction of an opposing gender caricature as one of their major life goals. There are perhaps more happy andorgynes in our society than any other, historically, but the majority still come of age in an environment of parental and peer pressure urging extreme posturing to attract a mate, often coexisting with contradictory goals for career and self-realization. For the many who don't excel in balancing these contradictions but are nevertheless pushed to try, entering a perfect-by-design av into a simplified master-slave relationship is no doubt a pleasant vacation from the intricacies of modern love.

Also, most people's SL mates couldn't "beat" them without a plane ticket. These are people exploring D/s fantasies in a safe zone, and comparing them to people who have never known intimacy without physical abuse is irresponsible and short-sighted.

In the instances where this occurs and let me state, not all Goreans are into these things just as not all Dominants in D/s relationships are into spanking...... It is not real, it is roleplay. You can't "force" someone into slavery unless that person is roleplaying along with it and choosing to be "forced" and the same is true of your other examples.




Again i'll state that my SL daughter is a kajira and she is a strong minded young woman who happens to enjoy her roleplay.... she is most certainly NOT a "vagina with legs and arms" and frankly if anyone attempted to veiw her that way, not only would they get an earful from me but she would choose to not allow that person in her life anymore.

Its fairly clear you've never witnessed a quality kajira dancer. I have. I watched a girl move slowly and yes sexily on a stage while at the same time telling a very detailed and well written story in chat... she wasn't simply seducing the men in the room (though no doubt they found her lovely) she was telling an exciting and frankly riveting tale. I enjoyed it very much and was very impressed as was everyone else in the room. I'm certain there are some inexperienced dancers who simply gyrate and seduce but that is not what it is meant to be.

Many Masters do not believe their slaves are only for serving and sex. I know some do but hell some men feel that way about their girlfriends too. Many Masters I know have deep conversations with their slaves... they know them inside and out and truly enjoy their company. Once again you are lumping ALL into a generalization that only applies to SOME.




So you can stay away from the ones you have problems with but it isn't fair to lump them all together.




ANYTHING can and has been dangerous when someone is already unstable. I've seen women do the same thing when their boyfriends leave them and the same is true of men. It isn't a Gorean problem so much as a personal problem some people have.

I will concede that certain types of roleplay do draw in unstable individuals, however that is not the fault of the roleplayers themselves. Unstable people exist everywhere and if someone is going to harm themselves over a relationship they are going to do it whether they call that partner "Master" or "boyfriend".

This is of course true, but i'll also point out that in a normal relationship there is a share of devotion and love. In a gorean relationship, it's the slave is expected to give her heart and soul to her master, and her master is expected to treat her like property, screw her when he's in the mood, and sell or kill her when she bores him. It creates an unequal emotional bond, this of course doesn't encompass all Master/slave relationships, as D/s usually is an exchange of trust and love, but Gor encourages a detachment of the Master from his slave and encourages the slave to think of the relationship as all about Master and nothing at all about her.



Actually I was refering to the books, you were saying that the books aren't inheriently mysogynistic because they treasure women's beauty and blah blah, but I say that. And we already went over to what extent people are doing this of "their own free will" and what "free will" exactly means in term of this already.



You know, people have been saying this whole "you lump all into a generalization" to me over and over when I say that i'm not refering to all over and over. but you know, you're doing the same thing I am except reversed. I'm saying that a good portion of gorean men support this sort of abuse, you're saying the opposite. Neither of us have support except our own opinions, so we're both lumping into generalizations. Which is why I try to use terms that don't apply to "all" goreans as much as possible. though it seems pointless sometimes since even when I do use such non-lumping terms, people tend to call me out on generalizations anyways.

It sounds like you're lucky enough to have your SL daughter be a roleplaying kajira, which is not what i'm talking about. If she talks about OOC topics such as SL while going "this girl" and acting out the roleplay, and has to ask permission to log out (but not roleplay that she needs to go to bed in character which means log out in real life but actually says "log out" or something akin to that), then you know you're in trouble. I've seen roleplaying gors, I don't mind roleplaying gors all that much, i've said that a few times. It's the ones that can't distinguish between roleplay and non-roleplay or fantasy and reality that I have problems with.

And I have seen these dances, more than a few times. Not my cup of tea, but then I don't like to watch strippers either. It's basically the same thing except the gor dances are a lot more verbal. You can give a porno movie a rivetting plot, but if the focus is still visually showing (or describing) sex then it's still a porno, and no matter how much you talk about how great the plot is (the proverbial "reading it for the articles" ) it doesn't change that it's porn. Gor dances may have a lot of thought put into them, but when you take out all the finesse it's still just a ton of descriptions of their "swaying milky white hips" and other descriptively and metaphorically overblown traits.



That's pretty much what I do. If you want to take a quote like "Does that mean that ALL furries are "furverts"? No, but it does mean quite a bit of them are. Same with Goreans, if I were to group them all and pick one randomly, chances are i'd find someone who takes the whole thing a little bit more seriously then they should, making them the "bad apple" category." and turn it into "I think all goreans are bad apples" so you can say that i'm lumping things together and making generalizations, that's fine whatever. But it doesn't change that i'm not.



I think that Gor definately encourages these kinds of people and gives them a place to abuse people, even if only mentally and emotionally. If I make a community based around a series of books that encourages beating women, torture, mind games, slavery, rape, and murder, I can only assume that the people who will be most active in it will be interested in such things. The problem we have here is that it would seem that goreans don't realize what they do is based around thought reform, and that them satisfying these self-absorbed urges can be hurtful to the girl-shaped thing they consider property.

Even you concede that this stuff draws in more unstable people than normal, all i'm saying is that it draws in quite a bit. Not every gorean is mentally unstable and abusive, but I have to say that it's a trait that isn't entirely uncommon in the sims.

I do think that you're missing part of my point based on this abusive relationship, is because the Master slave relationship can't HELP but dehumanize and abuse, it's developed and made for that purpose. It's like a gun, you can probably hammer in a nail with it or use it for something else, but that's not what it was intended for, it was intended to kill and that's really all it's good for. Just as you can try to make a stable and balanced relationship out of Gor Master/slave, but most likely you're just going to see people using it for it's original purpose. That is that a slave is only there to please the master and is little more important then anything else the Master owns, the Master has no requirement or contract to make him think about how the girl feels or needs. The relationship is specifically set up and repeatedly mentioned in the books that the Girl is nothing and the Man is everything, Girl must please man with every fiber of her body, man can do whatever he wants with her and doesn't have to do anything in return.

Nature has a balance about it, and this includes love and relationships. If a relationship is unbalanced than it can't help but be abusive and emotionally hurtful, then it's a gun, emotional pain and abuse becomes it's ammo, and directing this at the girl is it's purpose. You said it yourself, in a normal relationship the man and woman can both get hurt by a break-up. But when's the last time you've seen the master sobbing over the slave he killed or sold?

Thank you for your application to become a dancer at the local Gor tavern. Unfortunately we have to tell you that we will not be requestiing you to attend for an audition, and would suggest that you gain a little more experience before applying for this sort of job again.

(Actually, if you 'take all the finesse' out of Beethoven's Ninth, it's just a ton of loud noises and tunes.)

I'll admit that my perception is based on only the people I know as I choose to avoid those whose styles I'm uncomfortable with, but thats not the majority that I've seen.... the relationship style you are describing is the minority in my experience. Most I've seen the Master is as deeply attached to the slave as she is to him. I think SOME Goreans encourage what you are describing, yes. But those who aren't seeking that go elsewhere.




I never said that. I stated that I've only read one of the books and didn't really like it at all. My perceptions are based on the Gorean roleplaying I've seen which many have told me often isn't in line with the books. I never said the BOOKS weren't mysogynistic (I have no idea if they are or not) I said out of the Masters I've known most of them weren't and the Gorean roleplay I've witnessed, most of it wasn't about hatred for women but was in fact about simply participating in a roleplay the women were WILLINGLY entering into.




Ok, i'll accept this. If I say you are generalizing based on your perceptions then I will agree that I am as well.



I do acknowledge that. Then I also think that all of these online environments attract mentally unstable people. Most of us are fairly normal (assuming any of us can define normal lol) But online communities in general tend to have a fair percentage of nutjobs. And yes Gor does attract some serious assholes and one of my fears for my daughter is that she'll run into some of those assholes and nutjobs. (ouch forgive the language, i'm getting sleepy and cranky) But like any community I would expect the leaders to watch out for that and be aware of it. I think that many do.



Again i'll reiterate what I've said before. I feel thats the minority of Master/slave relationships not the majority. For many many Masters, their slave is someone they love and treasure.
Many people (and i've heard this more times than i like to count) say that a BDSM relationship is inherantly (ugh sp? .. sleepy) abusive. I am involved in a BDSM relationship. I call my partner Master. He calls me everything from pet to brat to my love to dam woman Yes he gives an order and i have to either obey it or deal with the consequences and yes sometimes those consequences can get physical.... well physical in terms of what is possible online. But it is only abusive if _I_ decide it is. It isn't up to an outsider to look at what we have and declare it abuse simply because it is designed with the potential to be.



Actually recently. I know a Master, a friend, who was so devastated when his girl just vanished on him that he did cry and went around moping and lonely and sad for a very long time. Eventually, as with any heartbreak, he moved on and even began occasionally flirting again... but it did devastate him. It goes both ways.

ok and with that I can't keep my eyes open anymore lol..... You are an interesting person to debate with Artemis.
nighty night all

It sounds like it was written by a deaf man!

I think the thread is digressing into the method of the RP itself.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with RP'ing abuse, dehumanization, etc.

It's when it turns into the real abuse of the player where the line is crossed, and it's an easy line to cross for the insecure or less than mature.

I don't think the issue is whether it is a minority of masters that are manipulating, or trying to manipulate/control their RP slaves IRL, but whether or not abusive relationships online are more likely to affect RL within Gorean or D/s RP than in more egalitarian types of relationships.

I'd bet that it is. It would certianly be an intersting study.

I don't support banning Gorean or D/s RP, but I think people going into it need to know the potential dangers, and be fully aware of what they MIGHT be getting into, or might fall into. Not everyone is capable of handling this sort of RP, on both the master and slave side. Unfortunately, it's the slaves that suffer the most when things go bad.

Just like there's nothing wrong with playing a violent video game, it all depends on the person's pre-existing ability to distinguish reality and fantasy, a line that is blurred for some in Gor.



I was actually refering to the books there which Goreans tend to take as gospel. I do think it's possible for the Master to be attached, but I think that the books don't encourage it, and if a gorean wants to follow the books (which they don't always, they usually just follow them when it suits their needs) then they would keep detached. But getting on to personal experiences, this is just the same thing as "some good some bad" you've seen some of these ones that can make it balanced, i've seen a lot of ones that can't and prefer for it not to be.



Well when I said Gor is inheriently mysogynistic, I was refering to the books. The community is mysogynistic as well, but it's not a required trait if you don't follow the books perfectly, which a lot of the community doesn't.

and again, this just ends up being difference in experience, you say a lot of the masters you've seen weren't, I say a lot of the ones I've seen were. Go to Glorious Ar sometime that'll up the anty of mysogynistic asshole masters.



I would say Second Life is to social deviants and the mentally unstable as Gor is to the abusive men and the jackasses. It does tend to attract that type and no one that logs on regularly in Second Life can claim to be totally normal (myself included).

As long as she stays in the sim that is apparently full of nice people it should be fine, but keep in mind that Gor is run by men and if she feels uncomfterable with a man or he's being abusive, it's more likely that she'll get punished if she says anything. The leaders of the sim, who are invested in the Gor philosophy and books enough to drop 200 dollars or so a month, can sometimes be the worst offenders of this. Like I said before, the sim that you'll have the least amount of problems in are the ones with a woman as an owner. But then again, she's already a slave girl so the men have what they want and i'm sure she won't talk back.



I was refering to the Gorean Master/slave relationship, and you mentioned that you knew little about Gor and were not gorean yourself. The difference here is that non-gorean BDSM is not based on any pre-existing texts, rules, behaviours, or traditions, it's pretty open ended so it's hard to confine it to anything. Gor D/s is and I can say that lifestyle goreans take the books as Gospel and try to follow them (especially when it suits their needs), the slave relationships described in the books are inheriently abusive and hurtful because they were truly intended to be slave relationships. BDSM was always like pretend slave relationships, yes there's a submissive but she really has as much power and say as the dominant. In Gor (the books and lifestyle), it strives to be and push the slave to understand that she is nothing and Master is everything, whether or not the specific Master will concede to that entirely or go to a more "traditional" D/s relationship I couldn't say without picking out people, but as before, I would say that there is a good portion that goes for the former.



Fair enough



I don't know how that applies, since last time I checked, the Beethoven's Ninth didn't have a fully naked girl giving full hip thrusts to an audience of horny mysogynistic men. Though your local strip joint does.

I define these dances as group think, the group is supposed to consider the dance beautiful and artful (because the books say they are) but no-one really does, so they tell eachother they do to keep up their public image, then eventually they start believing it themselves. I've seen quite a few of these dances (especially since they tend to come directly after Arena Battles which is one thing I do enjoy from Gor) and I was never impressed, moved, or felt that it was artful, and i'm an artist.

It's just another addition to the slave using verboise and overblown metaphorical descriptions of herself (the one that annoys me most is where they refer to their eyes as jewels), but there's no creativity and there's no expression in it, it's just them objectifying themselves by refering to each body as different objects (but never a person), and it's just them spitting out what they were taught in Gor thought reform academy for free-thinking slaves.

I know why the caged bird sings.

I think that's a really good summary of the problem as it stands.

Indeed, the need for a second life often stems from having totally torched the first one, or having it torched for you, and needing to get a refund.

That was what some of the critics of the day actually said!

Apart from the fact that no one is 'forced into slavery' either in Gor or in general BDSM, your description fits BDSM equally well. Of course, missing out the rather crucial point that what happens in both Gor and BDSM generally is always consensual. So what it is you are against? Gor in particular, or BDSM generally?

Don't you feel your description is a trifle - subjective?



I have seen some lovely and skilful Gorean dances. And when the text (which can be extemporaneous) is designed to synchonise with the animations, you have something which is as artistic as the limitations of Second Life allow.

It strikes me your viewpoint is so prejudiced that you are determined not to find anything admirable in the minutest aspect of Gorean life.

[/QUOTE]

Don't you feel your description is a trifle - subjective?



I have seen some lovely and skilful Gorean dances. And when the text (which can be extemporaneous) is designed to synchonise with the animations, you have something which is as artistic as the limitations of Second Life allow.

It strikes me your viewpoint is so prejudiced that you are determined not to find anything admirable in the minutest aspect of Gorean life.

Danger is all around us in RL. Danger here? Sure, for the not-so-bright folks who must look down at the desk and not see that little off button. Or the folks who pass out their RL information and participate in the phone/cam stuff and then later complain about how the "line was crossed" and "abuse" was perptuated. I have little sympathy for folks who won't take responsibility for themselves. Always there's that group of souls that will go about life blaming everyone else but themselves for everything they feel. Take responsibility! The ones who complain about being "hurt", from what I have experienced in years of being around this, are the little drama queens who have no clue or willingness to separate a freakin cartoon game from RL. Banning?!? come ooooooon!

By the way, I RP a bdsm slave. I visit the Gorean sims and enjoy them, but am glad my partner and I are not Gorean, because my avatar gets cold in those silks.