What's so bad about Furries & Goreans anyway?

I'm a fur.
I'm definitely not obsessed.
I'm definitely not dumb.
I definitely don't hang around in people's faces with invisible dicks.
I'm homosexual.
I don't go in guys faces and force them to have sex with me.
I don't go up to girls and tell them to fuck off.
I don't have a gallery of dildo's at my command.
I don't worship wolves, foxes, dragons, ferrets, skunks, cats, dogs, or any of the sort.
I don't obsess over my animal ava.

I'm not in a cult; I don't have to be treated this way.
Get your brains in gear, you idiots: gays, furries, jews, blacks, goreans, they're all good, and leave them alone and let them into your society.

My usual response when a fur starts badmouthing humans looking around an area is to tell them that Missy is human too, as "under the Alpha Centurai accords of 2106, any sentient of Terran origin is classifed for legal purposes as human, which really pissed off the dolphins but they should have sent a delegate instead of mucking around in the water and having a good time." That usualy confuses them into silence.

Ranma, I'd definitely say that depends on where you've been. I will say that that kind of attitude (omg no hyoomans) will get people kicked out of luskwood.

Jack, your hostility is completely wasted, because it completely misses the point.

The point is, that not everyone is emotionally mature. Not everyone is aware of potential problems that may arise from certain types of RP due to lack of experience or knowledge in that area. Also, some people are naive or too trusting, and that can lead them to make bad decisions.

Your other problem is that you are very naive yourself to think that people cannot be manipulated, victimized and controlled online. I suppose this is because you do not understand how powerful the connections people make online can become.

You also are being very defensive, when in fact, you are not under attack.

It's unfortunate that people like you cannot simply admit that there are dangers, there are abusers, and that people should be aware of potential dangers.

Yes, there are potential dangers in all forms of RP, but no one has denied that. The issue has been:

1) There are serious problems that do arise in Gorean (D/s etc.) RP
2) There are very likely more problems arising out of this sort of RP than more egalitarian forms due to the very nature of Gorean types of RP
3) Gorean types of RP may very well attract people who are abusive IRL, and people who have issues that lead them to seek out victim roles. In these cases, the mental disfunctions of both people can be exacerbated and lead to even greater problems IRL.

To simply deny these points out of hand is ridiculous and foolish, just as ridiculous as getting defensive over something that does not necesarily refer to you.

I still do not see why some Gorean RPers (or D/s and BDSM) have problems with a frank discussion about the fact that problems can and do arise out of this particular type of RP. It seems to me that these RPers should be the first to say that they are engaging in RP, that it is not RL, and that no "slaves" should ever give away personal information of any kind, or restrict their lives beyond the game and RPing moments within the game. Not only would this show that Gorean/BDSM etc. types of RPers are concerned with keeping things at the game level, but also show that they do not tolerate real abusiveness of any kind, and might help to weed out the real abusers.

Like the Catholic Church trying to conceal the truth that some of their priests are sexually abusing boys, uncalled-for defensiveness and outright denial and blame-shifting serves only to make Goreans appear guilty of something when, in fact, most are innocent of these charges.

Excuse me, but I really feel I need to state this again.

Gorean RP is NOT D/s. The two do NOT go hand in hand. Gorean roleplay simply contains SOME D/s characteristics.

Gor is a roleplay based on a series of fiction novels. While thats fine it isn't the same as D/s.

D/s is a roleplay for a select few individuals. For most it is simply a relationship style and in RL often a lifestyle. In a D/s relationship the "s" stands for submissive not slave. The dynamic is very different.

Each is a matter of personal choice and there are good and bad apples in both worlds but they really are very seperate worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtemis Fate

Well, it depends on the level of Submissive, I know you'll disagree on me with this but I don't think humans are naturally submissive. I think humans can be nurtured to be a submissive, which would allign with thought reform, but I don't think any one person can honestly say they were submissive from the moment they were born. This would be John Stuart Mill's Nature vs. Nurture idea.

just fo my for-penneth,
I m 35 years old now, and have been submissive since birth, but not realised it until the age of 19. so how did I know? who led me to be submissive?, well, my birth did, no-one 'Made' me submissive.

There are many papers on submissive tendencies and why, mine is the overwhelming desire to please others, do i enjoy being bossed around? yes, and no, as thats not all there is to it. do i enjoy being punished?, no, that means i havent pleased, and believe me, that is punishment in itself. Do I enjoy being spanked, or a beating (thats a personal level of the individual), yes, and no, yes, i enjoy being spanked, my Owners know this, so try not to as it is a gift and pleasure for being good in my case, it only becomes a punishment when over a certain limit, and is understood when.

Can i make my own decisions? yes, i wouldnt be here if not, my choices are my own, do i follow others of respect if ordered to do so? yes, that is my decision to, and i do refuse certain things, that is my choice, and is agreed if its worthy of refusal and if punishment is deserving. believe me, silence from an Owner is 100 times more hurtfull than a whip.

Am i dumb broad?, far from it, i have a Degree in Marine Engineering and a Merchant Navy Officers 2nd Engineers License, this does not mean i am not submissive, i still serve in my job, just not to the same extent as in full submissiveness, but my feelings or angst are the same there if i displease or please.

And now Gor, yes in second life I am a gorean slave, and would be in real life to if the oppurtunity arose, and hopefully will, if even not gorean, 24/7, why? my choice, the pleasure and need is just as strong as that for a 'normal' job and life.

Is it an easy way out? ask yourself the same thing, giving your whole self, miond and body to another, 24/7, to please them and take pleaure from that by any means, i think not, and that is my choice,

as in second and first life, there are always pratts, of all walks of life, and in every field sums it up, those that are usually are laughed off,

be most well

sara x

I apologise that my post was seen by some as hostile, and/or defensive, I was actually just trying to be frank.

I agree that there are some emotionally immature folks out there. My point was simply that I strongly believe that the only control any of us have over anything, in the end, is our own reaction to people/events/etc. Of course people can be manipulated, but my point is, you actually do have a responsibility in that. I definitely realize how strong an online connection can be--I have been with my online partner for several years, and find it amazing! It's a little sappy to admit, but we often say stuff at the same time, or completely without rationale will come up with some idea at the same time! It's a little spooky, that intimacy Like I say, though, everyone just has to take responsibility to control themselves. It's an unfortunate thing, I hear people talk about how they were hurt/betrayed etc in game, and how now, in RL, they cannot eat or sleep and are too upset to function in the real world. To me, this just shows a lack of self-control and a lack of grasp on reality. Am I making any sense? I apologise again if it sounds cold. I'm definitely not stating there's no jerks out there who take advantage of the naive. But I am stating that sometimes I do feel that some of the ones that get repeatedly "hurt" are simply persons who choose to deny their own responsibilities. (Which involve, do not engage in RL contact, know the difference between the computer screen and your own two eyes) This isn't anything difficult or emotionally challenging, it's common sense. I hope I stated it in a better way this time.

Agreed, and that is something that should be worked on by people who have that problem. However, just because someone might be easy to take advantage of, that doesn't make it alright to do it. And it happens, over and over. That is the problem I'm talking of.

I lvoe it!

Oh, it's definitely not all right, as I said up there too, there's always those jerks. And in no way are they innocent of doing something wrong. But the best defense against the jerks is taking control of your own reactions to them. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting my point across about the self-responsibility thing...someone help the guy out here please!

Oh, I get it. Something everyone should have is a strong sense of their own boundaries, and the ability to defend them. But that's not something you're without one day, then wake up the next morning and decide to have them. It's often a tough process to develop that, if you're lacking them. I, of all people, should know!

Maybe I am naive, but I have never seen a furry having sex in SL. I've actually never seen anything close to furry sex in SL. I've had furry neighbors, been to furry clubs and seen furries at events. Maybe I am just in the wrong places.

Either way, furries and the thought of furry sex doesn't bother me.

Gorean culture on the other hand bothers me at my core. I think it is fine if people want to roleplay but there is just something about the slave relationship and the intensity of the roleplay that I could never get into. At my last visit to a Gorean event I asked what provisions were made for women who were owned by unruly or mentally unfit men. I was told there was none and that these women were property. Then one of the slave owners made a comment about tying his woman to an oar to drown her. Everyone laughed. Dunno, just not my scene, but if it is yours, more power to you.

I do think it would be interesting to have a group of insect AVs in SL roleplaying the Priest Kings. Wonder if they would still laugh when I came to roleplay and take away all their toys in the name of curtailing technology.

Well said sis.

Briana Dawson

i walked into a goerean sim in my normal (human with wings) avatar and as i ws looking around someone asked 'are you goerean?' i said no and WHAM

insta-ban

i was annoyed at this - so went back as an alt (furry this time) - banned b4 i was even asked anything

deciding this was beyond a joke and foolish i went back as my third alt - human wearing rock stuff - was asked and said yes while using insane amount of gestures and 'lols' and other emotes

allowd to stay...

so being obnoixious is allowd but being different isnt resulting in banning? reminds of a certain other group that used to be around..... funny walk and stuff...

oh and the case with furrys - i dont mind them at all, if some start talking about 'yiffing' and other sordid things i generally ask them not to and they normally say ok. goereons on the other hand just plain refuse to speak to me and use 'distance' sheilds (really a weapon that keeps peple a certain distance from you wherever you are including a sandbox where it was done to me)

for those that skipped:-

furrys - good normally
goreans - generally bad, (those who meet you dont want to be submissed automatically - and its called 'greifing')
------------------
btw im not a furry - the furry alt was used by a family member that didnt like it much so gave the account back to me

actually my expereinces say

furries-normally good

goreans -normally good

you just hit a bad group, don't group the majority in with the minority

Does it really matter? Second Life's motto is "Your World, Your Imagination." That means you can be whatever you want to be, and it doesn't matter if people don't like it. I'm not a furry, but I can tolerate them even though I might not be like them.

Anecdotes in no particular order:

I'm giving a newbie some instruction on how to operate some of the various features and this furry street gang shows up and starts hassling me. I didn't know if I was laughing because it was so funny or because it was so tragic. I mean what were they going to do, toss down a pose ball and ask me to strip down and get on the pose ball for a yiff? In retrospect maybe that would have been funny too, to see the animations miss so tragically seeing as I'm about two feet taller than the average female. Then again, the type of dresses I wear would in real life take an hour to get in or out of. How did Victorian women use the loo anyway...

Victorian dresses, early on that was the first thing I looked for was big poofy dresses and one creator is so good at arranging them, perhaps not at making really advanced prims but she has that special touch with making the simple look incredibly complex. I've bought four of them so far, three more as gifts to others, and chatted for hours with the creator while she was working on another dress, talking colour palate and ideas for expanding the range of dresses and accessories. After a few more visits and chats and fashion shows she offers a modeling group membership and now I'm a model. And those extra special people in high school said I would always be ugly as sin. UP YOURS! Anyway, I drop by to look at the new line she'd put up and was asking the opinion of her inner circle, looked at the wares and since she's somewhere in the far east we're on at opposite ends of the clock most of the time but the shop was full of people looking for gowns for New Years. So I modeled, chatted, exchanged a few items each of us had built, Landmarks, business cards, and helped pump the store sales up to the point that when I next saw the store owner when I got back from the New Years party IRL, she was all boggled at the sales. Hell, I was just doing what I like to do, show off, chat, trade items and information. The store owner gave me some extra versions of the new corset sets. Sweet. That and some of the people visiting the store commented on my appearance, to sum it up in a paraphrase, 'I never really did understand the furry thing but your avatar is one of the prettiest I've ever seen.' I seem to do that a lot, not just with looks but behaviour, helping newbies, giving directions to places of interest seeing as my memory for places is good and my interests so diverse. 'I never really did understand the furry thing but you're really nice.' I'm a furry ambassador.

So life goes on and eventually I find myself more actively modelling, Gorean sims included once I'd put together enough parts for a passable human avatar, and you know what? I have yet to meet a jackass Gorean. I just show some decorum, model dresses to those who ask, scout out the areas where potential vendors could be set up, look at the lovely architecture and landscaping, and move on elsewhere. At most I get a 'Tal' and a pleasant conversation. Go to a club or a mall and I get some clingy salesman or some dirtbag with a smooth line like 'HAy ur hot u wan fuk'. Like, ew.

~Kami

For those who don't know, 'tal' is a gorean greeting similiar in use to 'aloha' or 'ciaos' (from hawaiian and italian approriately) which can mean both hello and goodbye.

kornation Boomerang



hmmm...if I could understand that it would be easier to respond. Anyway....bottom line kornation, as people keep pointing out, don't judge ALL Goreans by the action of a few. I'm sorry you found your time in a Gorean sim unpleasant, I hope you're able to return, spend a little time, and talk to some "non jerk" Goreans. in my own experience, the good outweigh the bad. Good luck.

It's their right to be goreans and furries.
It's my right to hate them.
I keep a long list.

Do you listen to a lot of L7, too?

Yeah. It's absolutely your right to sit in your room and hate a lot of people.

Unfortunately for you, it's actually not your right to act on that hate, or "realize" it.

And I bet that gets your tighty whities all creased up. In a manly way, of course.

Hey all,

To start off I'd like to give you an introduction to how I came to Gor. About 2 weeks ago I was approached by a friend of mine to advertise and promote for a new Gorean location they were building and designing (I run a marketing and promotions company in SL). When I asked for details about the location I realized that in order to design a proper add campaign, I would have to *become* Gorean... at least untill the grand opening is over and done with.

The first and only place I had ever heard of was Port Cos. Unaware of the many Sims out there, I typed in "Gorean" into the find places section and BAM - 6 or so locations with decent numbers in traffic, right before my eyes. I clicked on the top one (Port Cos at the time) and TP'd onto the dock of a ship. Almost immediately I was hit with a note card and some objects being offered to me. The note card took a good 20 to 30 minutes to read and properly understand. It contained all the rules of the Sim and explained them in clear terms.

I think this is the first problem that people have. I have seen many people question or become angry at being kicked or banned. The problem seems to arise from *PEOPLE NOT READING THE NOTECARD WHEN THEY ENTER THE SIM*. In the last 2 weeks I have seen many who have CLEARLY not read the entire "rule book" and it frustrates me for the simple reason that *I* took the time to do so. There are some very general rules I have seen across the board, which I will discuss later in this post.

After my experience at Port Cos (A panther had been captured and was being whipped and forced into a cage) I moved on to another Sim... and another... and another. Each time I read the notecard, accepted the inventory offers and watched. I feel I'm a rather neutral party since I got into this for the sole purpose of better understanding how I can advertise for my client. I have not read the Gorean books, nor do I believe in abuse to woman. I *have* however, seemingly fallen for Gorean role play.

The place I have spent the most time is a place called Laura. Here my role is that of an outlaw. There is a camp set up beyond the woods and it is "unsafe" - meaning I can be caught and/or killed. The best way (as an unfamilar to Gor) I can describe it is like being in a midieval society.

Next let me cover some more or less general rules I have come across. *Almost* every Sim provides VISITOR TAGS in the note card given upon arrival. IF YOU WANT TO WALK AROUND AND VIEW THE SIM WEAR ONE OF THESE. Generally these tags tell people that you are not to be involved in the roleplay are are there to be seen (not heard). Most observers are asked to keep questions in IM and this is how I learned most of what I did.

If you chose not to wear a visitor tag, you must wear a health meter. This is basically you accepting all "gorean rules" and you *must* abide by all laws set out in the note card. For those interested in Gor all I can say is go to the different sims, slap on a visitor tag, and watch. MAKE SURE to IM people with comments questions. I think this is another problem many have is that they can't see whats going on in the IM's behind the seen. Example - I see some one out in the woods (female OR male) so I hunt and catch them using weapons, nets/whatever. Then i go through a series of steps to "bind them and cary them to camp". In the role play portion (the only part seen by visitors, or people watching is "/me kicks the panther hard in the side of the head, knocking her unconcious" while in IMs we're busy talking back and forth about our terms, i.e what do ya wanna do? or "haha i pwned you @zz, now im gonna sell you " The concern here is that people will only see the brutality often found in the RP and are not exposed to the often relaxed IM conversations. Often you find yourselves RPing your hatred for one another while IMing back and forth like good friends (at least in my experiences).

Another point I would like to make here is that in most cases, there is a 3 or 5 day max for which you can have something done. And YES men and woman can equally be captured and sold as slaves, etc. Several times during my noob gor experience, was I caught by panthers and strung naked in their camp while they spoke of what to do to me (rape, death, torture, etc). If I am caught and made a slave, I am such for only 3 days. In between then I can choose suicide if the opportunity presents itself (rp'd of course) and then im "dead" for 3 days. Death consists of wearing a ghost tag or being banned from the sim. After that I return to what ever way I was before.

As for not allowing furries, etc... IF YOU READ THE NOTE CARD YOU WILL KNOW WHY. Basically, its a ROLE PLAY SIM and its based off of the Gorean books. In these books there are no, for example, 5 foot tall rabbits walking around in shorts and a take top speaking english... and if there was im sure it would of been hunted and eaten. The basis behind it also lies in the fact that its hard to PRETEND(RP) you are in pain or whatever with a big fuzzy kitty watching you. Also since these are mature, in general, no child avi's are allowed.

As for these women being beaten into submission... often this is not the case. I know MANY gorean roleplayers (yes women) who are not only FREE but also powerful (panthers, merchants, several head mistresses). As for whether I will stay in Gor beyond the event im looking to promote, I dont know... as for what I have experienced - its fun and its role play... which obviously isnt for everyone, im simply saying try to look at it with an open mind to start and go from there.

I tried to talk about some major things I think people have been missing (behind the seens communication in IMs and people not reading the rules when they enter) and I hope I have covered them all. If there are questions or concerns please IM me or post them here.

Cheers,

Kirk Wombat

Jack, I agree that people have to take responsibility for themselves, but inexperience and naivete are problems not easily solved or dismissed.

This is exactly why I think it is good to have this sort of information out in the open, to help those who lack certain set boundaries and experience and maturity make better decisions before they make bad ones.

D/s of any kind is a bad place for insecure people to wander. I love D/s, but it's not for the faint-hearted or people in an identity crisis of any kind.

Gorean D/s directly addresses feminine insecurity, such as "the paradox of the collar" from page i think 160 of i think the 26th book. It says that women find their freedom and identity by losing their freedom and identity, because the state of submissiveness is their freedom to express their truly submissive identity. Of course, it's a bit more eloquent.

Obviously, someone can use this as an olive branch to lure the insecure into something dangerous out of a need for identity. I think this is why some compare Gor to a cult these days, because those who abuse the Gorean RP target the same sorts of people that cults do.

And lets face it, SL is a haven for the mentally unstable. 'Tis the nature of a creative environment. Swing a cat and you'll hit someone with more issues than SLustler will ever have.

The issue isn't with the culture itself, though some may find its blatant mysogyny offensive (women may be equal in writ, and occasionally in practice, but....yeah...). It's with the people abusing the RP of it in an environment that not only provides tons of prey for the hungry predator, but also can incidentally encourage the behavior because the "friends" of the people involved think it's just RP.

In short, Gor could use with a "code word".

Pfff. Much ado about nothing.

Furries are, with apologies to Douglas Adams, mostly harmless.

Goreans sort of are too ... sort of. There are some concerns with respect to them, but they're more to do with how SL Gor specifically tends to clumsily handle the D/s lifestyle than anything to do with Gorean ideals.

But oh well. Having dealt extensively with both, especially the latter ... if these two little groups are the worst and most pressing "problems" you've been able to identify in the world, honey, you'd better do some more looking.