From: Cindy Claveau
You're forgetting that in Norman's fantasy novels, there are also free women. Yes, his hypothetical social strata places Gorean men (as opposed to Earth men, who he sees as weak and feminized) superior to women in general, but you're focusing on the slavery issue while ignoring both the Free Women as well as the Panther women, who live on Gor outside of the rigid social strata of that society. In other words, you're selectively choosing data to support a point and ignoring that which does not. Huh.
Oh sorry, fantasy novels, right. I totally forgot. Fantasy novels have absolutely positively no connection to the real world, and are not in fact used as an analogy to real life to deal with complex issues or bring up philosophical complications. L. Ron Hubbard's novels that Scientology was based on was also fantasy too.
Oh and both Free Women and Panther Girls in the novel aren't intended to be symbols of independent women. They're walking metaphors, this much is obvious by reading the books as John Norman constantly brings up how Free-women all secretely desire to be slaves and are unhappy without a man owning them, and the Panther Girls were shortly mentioned and also ended up with all of them throwing themselves before the feet of men begging for the collar. Oh yes, this sounds like it's not based around slavery at all. John Norman only included those types in there just to make examples of how EVERY woman wants to be a slave.
From: Cindy Claveau
Before you're too harsh on Goreans, I suggest you start speaking out against the predatory Dom/mes who love to troll newbie areas and find vulnerable newbs to prey upon -- give them money and clothes, offer to take them under their arms and guide them, then gradually impose their own control on the victim. It's an almost daily occurrence and I've seen it with my own eyes. The difference between them and Gor is that there is a large body of lore available on Gor -- including the Gorean libraries within SL -- which clearly and unequivocally state Gor's aims and methods. The predator Dom/mes are much more untruthful and clever.
I don't see the point your making? Because Gor is more organized in it's brainwashing and others do it too it's okay?
From: Cindy Claveau
How is this different than some Christian groups, political parties and even online communities? I don't know how many Goreans you know personally, but I'd say subjectively that you described less than 5% of Gor. The friends I have who belong to that circle are there by choice, know precisely what they're into and have no desire to be anywhere else.
Again, your point is because other people use these tactics that it's okay? Or you're agreeing that Gorean's brainwashing tactic usage is common place in other places or what?
And no, less than 5% of gor would be those who roleplay only and don't take it seriously. I've been to many gorean sims, known many goreans, read many gorean texts, and watched gorean communities in other places as it's evolved. I may not know the most about Gor but I do know what i'm talking about.
From: Cindy Claveau
Orwell is not applicable here, and we can debate THAT empty point all you want. Gor isn't looking to take over SL or impose their philosophy on anyone who doesn't wish to join Gor (including you). And your quote strikes me as very superficial, out of context with the underlying philosophy of D/s -- it's not slavery, it's the "gift of submission" that grants the sub (or slave) a certain kind of emotional freedom. That's not an easy concept for the uninitiated to grasp, but if you don't grasp it, stop condeming it.
How is orwell not applicable? The quote is used as the exact same context as the Gorean quote and was a powerful brainwashing tool of the government "The Party" in 1984 and has been recognized as a tactic used by real life governments and religions. Unfortunately for you, if you do understand and agree with the concept, then you've already been brainwashed to some point. Like I said, accepting doublethink (two contradicting concepts, Slavery and Freedom) then you're already caught in a position to be fed propoganda and accept anything they say. Look behind the curtain, can't you see that the "gift of submission" is bullshit? A person doesn't become more free by enslaving themselves physically. Even if it did make any sense, any D/s person will tell you that you don't "give" submission, it's a give and take relationship, and it's something the submissive has to decide for themselves. It's not something that can be given.
Also, i'm sure many people in Active Worlds who shared your opinions would have said that "Gor isn't trying to take over Active Worlds or impose their philosophy on anyone". Riiiight up until the point where Gorean Peacekeepers (something akin to volunteer liasons) started banning citizens based on their opinions on Gor that they may have overheard.
From: Cindy Claveau
Disclaimer: I am not Gorean and I never will be Gorean, but I have Gorean friends, I have been to Gor, I have interviewed Gorean leaders and I have been close to Gor slave girls who went through much the same kind of interpersonal drama as everyone else in SL who rubs up against people.
Ditto.
From: Vivianne Draper
You make it sound as though there is a collective goal to find new young female residents and make them Gorean slaves through a planned, step-by-step thought control process. Nothing could be further from the truth. It really IS RP. That is not to say that there are not manipulative people that use it for evil, but Gor, in and of itself, is not evil. It might be STUPID (and indeed I think it is) -- but that's a different argument.
I actually don't think that most goreans conciouslly do this. I think that it's a natural part of Slavery, that all slavery involves some of these de-humanizing and thought reform tactics, then the rest was filled in by John Norman to be persuasive. All of this ended up in gor communities because they follow the books.
From: Vivianne Draper
Yeah ok people have to read the Gor books. They don't have to read ALL the Gor books -- but y'know, one or two to familiarize oneself with the world. Before one becomes a Jedi one should see a Star Wars movie or two. And yes, the Gor books all contain John Norman's slave fantasies. Thats what they are about. So what? Big deal. I have friends that play a Buffy game. Before one can join the game, you have to have watched Buffy. I have another group of friends that play a game based on the Dune books by Frank Herbert. Before you can join, you have to have read the first three books. This isn't an unusual practice in RP groups.
Sorry, when I said texts I didn't mean the books actually, there's quite a few goreans who haven't read any of the books. I actually meant the notecards that the gorean community writes for it's members in their libraries and what they pass around.
From: Vivianne Draper
No sorry not true. What is true is that certain masters use these tactics but it is not a function of the sim or the governance of the sim. Now it is also true that if you agree to be a slave you agree to behave. If you don't behave according to the groundrules that you and your Master have set up, then you have agreed, in advance, to be punished. It is also true that if you agree to go to a Gorean sim you agree to adhere to their rules. If you become disruptive, yeah -- you get your ass banned. Just like anywhere else. If I go to a furry sim and start talking about how furries suck or how furries are sick or how its unnatural to be a furry or questioning why anyone would want to be a furry, they are going to ban my ass, as well they should.
Well the first part is basic Pavlov training, it's a vital part of all slave relationships and any other relationship where one person is deemed higher than another. The second part is true of any non-roleplaying Gor sim which excluding about 2 of them, all of them are. I've seen it happen more than a few times.
And yes, you might get banned from a furry sim if you go talking about how sick furries are and insulting them. That's understandable. What i'm talking about is having a debate of the philosophy. Having an alternative opinion, without being rude or insulting, to John Norman's philosophy of Women and Gor will get you banned from most Gor sims save for 2 or 3.
From: Vivianne Draper
I doubt very seriously that when Norman wrote that he had doublethink in mind. Or if he did, he had it in mind only as applies to the books. These books were not written with real life and online communities that abide by them growing up. They were FANTASIES. That's all. To pick out one paragraph in a 10+ book series and present it as proof of endoctronated doublethink is unfair and manipulative in the extreme.
No he probably didn't, considering his prowress (or lack thereof) in writing, he probably didn't know what doublethink was. But the matter is is that it IS in there and you don't need to know what doublethink is to use it, just as if you don't know what gravity is, you'll still come down when you jump.
As I said above, just because it's a novel based in another world, or time, doesn't mean that it has no connection whatsoever to this world and Time. To refer back to Orwell, do you think that when he wrote 1984, that he had no intention of it being a large allegory to our current time? Fantasies can sometimes be made to have no connection to our world and politics, and maybe they don't comment on anything, but what does ALWAYS apply is philosophy. Would I say, after reading the Gor books that John Norman's Philosophy of Women was intended only to be fantasy and say "oh well he just meant
gorean women but it has nothing to do with earth women". No, he just made Gor to be a counter-earth because he knew that the only way he'd be able to write a book about slavery being good and having it published is if he dressed it up a bit and disconnected it from our world.
Yes I picked out one paragraph, but I can pick out 20-30 more just like it if you want, the books are full of them. Here's another:
"The Free Woman is a riddle, the answer to which is the collar." -Page 50 - Magicians of Gor
And another:
"One of the great fears of a slave girl is that she will be sold to a woman. Free women treat their female slaves with incredible hatred and cruelty. Why this is I do not know. Some say it is because they, the free women, envy the girls their collars and wish that they, too, were collared, and at the complete mercy of masters." -Page 154 - Maruaders of Gor
Trust me, I trudged through 5 of the books, and they're a main feature of each one. Every time a strong and independent women appears in the books, she is beaten down mentally and enslaved until she begs for the collar from a man so John Norman could prove his point that Women are weak and want to be enslaved. It happens so much in the books it's tedious and predictable.
From: Vivianne Draper
No no no. Sorry but this is just wrong. Yes, when a slave does something right she is rewarded. And when you make a great build people tell you how great the build is. And when you make a great script people compliment you on that. And when you make great clothing people compliment you on that. Such is the way of the world.
SOME (not all) masters require control over friends lists and IMs -- certainly not all and this is not restricted to Gor. It certainly isn't a rule and isn't something the sim implements.
As I said, it's basic Pavlov conditioning and you do see it rather often. It's why you need more than this one thought control process to get it to work really.
Yes this is not a sim rule and this is not isolated to Gor either. Like I said, how this thought reform process happened doesn't seem to be entirely intentional but mostly accidental. But I don't know about you, but just about every Gorean slave I see has limitations around IMs and calling cards.
From: Vivianne Draper
This isn't true either. Outsiders are welcome. They are asked to don the garb of the sim and behave by the rules and wear a guest tag. All the information is freely available in well organized and fully stocked libraries. Not only are the books available but documentation as pertains to the specific Sim you are on, ledgers of slave sales, slave freeings (more frequent than you might think), marriages, property transfers, gladitorial contests and every other thing you might think of. There are scribes whose job it is to keep these libraries up to date and they do a good job. This information is freely available to any who may want to peruse it.
As far as speaking out -- if I go to any private sim and start saying how bad and wrong they are, they are going to think I'm a griefer and ban my ass. They should. I would be griefing were I to do that. But I try to respect the rules and regulations of any private holding I enter. This is just normal politeness. If you act otherwise, ANYWHERE (not just Gor), expect to be banned.
Sorry you misunderstood what I was trying to say, I was saying that outside information is banned, not information for outsiders. Of course they're going to have fully stocked libraries of information, they want you to get involved. But what they won't have and won't allow is an alternative view point to what John Norman says, if it's heard coming from an outsider they're banned, if a slave says it they're punished, if a master says it they're talked too. I've seen all of the above happen both in means and ends.
From: Vivianne Draper
Again, FANTASY books. Its not like the Goreans wrote those books. Its not like John Norman decided to create a slave trade on earth. These were fantasies. We aren't talking L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology here.
Actually John Norman did intend to write these books as a counter-movement to feminism in the 60's. It's not about the slave trade and the world Gor as much as it is the philosophy and ideas that John Norman passes in the book. It's obvious he fully supports the subjugation and exploitation of women. I also think it's very interesting that you mention L. Ron Hubbard, because Hubbard started out exactly the same way as Norman, writing Sci-Fi novels with philosophy and ideas strewn throughout them.
From: Vivianne Draper
No, they aren't. Actually, they are told rather frequently that they are beautiful, necessary, and adored. Gee, ya think this might be a function of an RP that would be attractive? I'm just sayin...
Just because you're necessary and adored, and especially because you're beautiful doesn't mean you're not stupid. Women, especially slaves, in the books and communities are outright told that they're not as good as men and aren't as intelligent as men. Powerless is also a BIG part of it, because in the books every strong and independent woman is beaten and starved until she has to eat from a man's hand to show how powerless she is. Of course beauty and adoration would be important in Gor, in Gor women aren't intended to be vessels of thought or strength, what they are is walking mindless sex toys that egotistical self-absorbed men can occasionally domineer to prove to themselves that they're manly. People who become slaves get involved because in this because as you said, they're told they're beautiful and adored for beauty, but it also makes it so they don't have to make any decisions anymore, because Master will do everything and decide everything for you.
From: StPaulSub Clio
i have told you since our 1st arguement that your research into Gor is missing one important part
actually observeing Goreans as opposed to those clowns out on the disney Gor sims
Well my research into Gor is mostly based around Gor in SL, and by the definition of "Disney Gor" all Gor in SL (and most everywhere) is Disney Gor. Besides, I don't really care if they follow the books carefully, I just care about the end result which is what we have in SL and what I HAVE watched and studied for a long period of time.
From: Stpaulsub clio
If you want to condem those bozo's for being ignorant abuseive trogs that so many are hey! i'm behind you. But to assume that any women who is a submissive is so only because of being duped, Sound liek teh same argument i have heard from some right to life groups, Only Women who have been confused or brainwashed would ever get a abortion.
Well, it depends on the level of Submissive, I know you'll disagree on me with this but I don't think humans are naturally submissive. I think humans can be
nurtured to be a submissive, which would allign with thought reform, but I don't think any one person can honestly say they were submissive from the moment they were born. This would be John Stuart Mill's Nature vs. Nurture idea.
From: Ananda Sandgrain
Margaret Singer's theories on "brainwashing" and cults exerting subtle forms of mind control have never been verified. Given her lifelong association with groups that exhibited hatred towards new religious movements, she's hardly a credible source for any such information. She was one of the guiding voices behind the whole deprogramming scam, which actually practiced what they accused cults of doing, namely attempting to change peoples's minds about their beliefs through coercion, including kidnapping, drugging, physical and emotional abuse.
As with other roleplaying issues here, don't make more of it than it actually is. Report real abuse, and where no real harm is happening, live and let live.
Well, as it stands, no theory of thought reform has been "verified", but then any scientist will tell you that something is true till it's not and every theory is worth it's grain unless you can prove it utterly wrong 1000 times, and even if you prove it wrong 1,000,000,000,000 times and have one time where it's right, the theory isn't wrong. What Margaret Singer did is unimportant, just as what John Norman did is unimportant, what they WROTE is important and what their ideas are are important. The fact that she used her own theories of brainwashing carries some weight to their importance I think, if she could use them to the reverse extent of "deprogramming", then there must be some truth to it if they worked there. Either way, it's a theory and one I happen to give some merit too.
On the abuse, i've never refered to Gor as abuse or never said anyone in gor as a slave or not is being abused. What I have is philosophical differences, and what I intend is for people to be aware that there are other sides of the coin on this one. Of course, refering back to Heaven's gate: no real harm happened there either. Right up until the point that they drank the poison. So if your best friend was getting involved in this and you knew it was potentially dangerous but she hadn't done anything harmful with it yet and overall it's made her a much happier person, you'd have said nothing because no harm was done and live and let live? Of course, you wouldn't be able to stop her in time from drinking the poison if you were to go with that philosophy.
I'm not writing all this to debate with Goreans. I can debate with goreans but I don't ever expect to change any gorean's mind about this subject. What i'm doing this for is the people who don't know much about goreans. As it stands, like Scientology, it's very hard to find anything giving an alternative opinion or giving information on it that isn't written by or propogated by someone who is involved in Gor.
