What's so bad about Furries & Goreans anyway?

I dont care if someones a furry, a gorean, a giant robot or whatever.
People are people ... and thats all that counts.

"Dear Musuko, in my part of the world I don't remember such a time and I have a degree in history. But since you ask, maybe I have my kinks too. I just don't roam around the world shouting and craving "respect" for it."

That history degree can't be worth much if you're unaware of a time in European history when women were treated as second-class citizens.

And roaming the world demanding respect? Excuse me?

Actually, you're right. How dare people demand respect and equality for all. All those damn people fighting for the liberties you enjoy today. Disgusting!

"I only wanted to say that I found the one poster's comparison of criticism of things gorean to the discrimination and mistreatment of women to be rather ironic and laughable."

The treatment of women in the past was a denial of free will to people. Women getting into the Gor lifestyle do so of their own free will. Giving away your free will is an act of free will.

If people want to give away their self-determination, I don't see why any of us should stop them. IT IS THEIRS TO DO WITH WHAT THEY WISH, INCLUDING GIVE IT AWAY. Free will is not free will if you say "you can't do suchandsuch with it".

What you seem to be saying is that YOU should stop women choosing to get into a Gorean lifestyle. It isn't about women having free will...it's about YOU controlling them, rather than Gors.

Musuko.

I agree. I judge them individually, by their attitudes and actions. I've met tons of assholes that were neither Gorean or Furry and I've met some great folks that were Gorean or Furry.

To each their own.

And to the person that said the Gorean cult is brainwashing women to be slaves - Perhaps you should actually talk to some of them for a while before jumping to such conclusions. There may be some women that put their entire selves into the Gorean culture, but that can be said for everything. There will always be folks that go overboard in any style or culture. As far as I can tell, they harm no one, it's consensual, and it's happening between adults.

To even put a bit of anger or hatred toward them, or any other non-threatening culture within SL, without a concrete reason, is a bit odd, and seems to point to insecutities or a lack or shortcoming in one's own life.

Yes, but how many that were both Gorean AND Furry?

*nod*

And that holds true for just about anything in our lives, I think. Whenever you get such a visceral reaction to something that doesn't directly affect you, such as being upset when a gay couple moves in down the street or finding out that a Muslim owns the corner store, it's time to do a little soul searching, because that reaction says a lot more about you than it does the other person. I think, anyhow

I think there are three issues here:

1. Should the goreans and the furries be allowed to do their thing in SL? The answer is obviously yes, as long as any such activities are done between consenting adults, and in places where such conduct is allowed.

2. Is there any funadmental merit, or fundamental danger, to the gorean society? I have my own opinions on this, but really such discussions are not relevant to this forum.

3. Is there any fundamental merit (or danger) to furry society? Again I have opinions on this, however they are not relevant to this forum.

My opinions, what ever they are of a group, are not relevant to whether that group should be allowed to co-exist in SL. They are adults, they can do thier thing as long as it is allowed conduct in the region (no adult behavior in PG areas). If someone has instances of eithe group engagin in specific harmful activity in SL, then they should AR the conduct. But in general, just because you don't like something does not mean it should be banned.

I've seen several posts accusing the Gorean contingent of using brainwashing techniques and abrogating the free will of those who participate... so far the only techniques I've seen mentioned are the use of third-person as a self referent, and isolation/materials study and memorization (the two seem to be used in tandem). I'm wondering how they implement dietary modification, sleep-schedule disruption, use of physical punishment, and imprisonment over a broadband connection.

And yeah, I'm being a little flip here, but it gets on my nerves a bit. There's a pretty big difference between (possibly) manipulating someone with a borderline personality, and literal brainwashing.

I never say I want Gor kicked out of the grid or anything, infact, i'm rather tolerant of Gor, I don't kick them out of Nexus Prime like they do me, and i'm nice as long as they're nice to me. What I do is based exactly on what you said there.

"Gor's not a Cult. It's an RP social class from what I understand."

That's just it. Gor is MUCH more like a cult than an RP social class, and from what most people understand is not a lot. Gor desperately tries to play itself off as an innocent little D&D world with D/s and everyone's just roleplaying and having fun, but there's a lot more too it in it's underbelly. That's why I talk about this stuff, not to condemn gor but to give information on it, people still think that gor is pure RP, but most of the time it's not. Most of the time it's a manipulative, dead serious, brainwashing, lifestyle/mindset change that locks the toughest chains to escape on a person: the mental ones. The ones you can't see. The ones that are defended by "They're here on their own free will". Unfortunately, the only people who can break the mental chains is the people in them. But it doesn't hurt to have the information out there before they get involved or maybe they'll think about it a bit if they read it. Most likely not.

And talking of Free-Speech, you want me to shut up about Gor because they have free-speech? Well this is my free-speech, and that's the essence of free-speech, having 2 opposing few points, and standing up for it, even if you're with a solitary and unpopular view point.

Oh and just as an example of how cultist this can get, here's some exerceps of a conversation log posted on a popular Gorean site called "Gorean Whispers"

"It all boils down to doing the things that every parent should do: raise your children to be the best people they can be. If I believe that the Gorean lifestyle is a good one, why would I not teach my children in its ways?"

"I don't think I restrict myself to eye gestures as commands. It's my nature to sometimes ask and sometimes tell swan to do things for me. That doesn't change because the children are in the house. swan has been known to sit at my feet, even with children in the house."

Source

I'm starting to get rather confused here. Could somebody explain me shortly who are the Goreans and what they do? Never heard of them before I came to SL. Also, if possible, which are the Gorean sims? From what I understood so far, I wouldn't be welcome if I teleported to one, so I'd prefer to avoid them for now to avoid unnecessary conflicts.

Same here Elspeth. "CTRL Q" is just so easy to use if you're not enjoying yourself.

Those who criticize Gor hopefully have read John Norman's books and actually visited with real Goreans first before they jump the shark. I'm not saying that will change their minds, but it might help if they understand a little more about the culture they're belittling. With that under their belts, it's important to remember that "role play" allows each of us to do whatever we wish, be anyone we want in SL even if it's not who we are IRL. It's up to you to decide what you want to be. Being someone else isn't necessarily a bad thing - some of us are half-elves in WoW or EQ2, I think.

If we're going to accuse Goreans of "mind control", I think we should expand it to all D/s-BDSM, political and religious groups. I mean, there are good and bad examples no matter what behavior/practice you're discussing -- generalizations are generally going to be wrong. Any group has a code of behavior of some kind that is expected for conformity, whether they're Gor, D/s, or whatever. Hopefully nobody here is suggesting that the Lindens ought to get into the business of legislating consentual behavior between subscribers. That's not a 'slippery slope', that's a freakin' cliff.

http://www.gor-on-earth.com/ looks like it might be a decent place to start, for understanding Gorean philosphy. Seems to leave out the more fantasy/SF elements of the books, anyway, and focus on the actual social dynamic.

As for sims to avoid... I don't have a list memorized, but I don't think it's necessary to flee in terror when approaching their boundary. A few reported incidents aside, they do seem to be fairly civil about warning folk 'hey, you have to be human here'.

There are furries left in SL? I thought they all were sucked into grid oblivion when the Furryland went buh-bye without a warning.

*coughs up furrball*

Troy

I do this already


Nope, there is nothing in the TOS stating that Linden Labs is in any way responsible for the moral or ethical control over the content. They can of course take stands on certain issues (nazi references seem to be commonly dealt with).

My own opinion on this whole matter is rather simple.

Not all goreans are bad.

Not all furries are bad.

There are, however, 2 certain subgroups within these (yes, both) that I have issues with.

Those who have lost touch with the division of real life and Second Life.

And those who think they ought to be treated special because they are members of these group. (I don't have to listen to your rules on your property/your group/your whatever, I'm a gorean/furry *title* and beyond your rules.) ((to which I would respond "Very true, but my banhammer doesn't recognize this claim, so, goodbye!" *agent has been teleported home* ))

These 2 issues... I have with members of all groups.

Y'know.. I've been to Gorean sims and know a LOT of Goreans and I'm sorry -- it ain't a cult. Now there may be select people in Gor that prey on the weak but you'll find that anywhere.

Are they misogynist? Yup. And they say so right as you enter their sims. But that doesn't make them a cult and it doesn't make them brainwashers.

A lot of times people are afraid of what they don't know or understand. I for one have no clue what gorean is. Like the person above I never heard of it before Second Life. Even though all the talk about it has me wondering what it is? So clue us in?

This is true, but the manipulation alone can be pretty severe and real. I know two women who left Second Life entirely as a direct result of unhealthy relationships with in-game masters. In each case, the relationship went beyond in-game roleplay. These guys had the girls get on webcam with them and ordered my friends to do things for them while they watched. They gave the women orders and restrictions for their day-to-day lives (what to wear, what kind of make-up, no RL sex with anyone else). (I know other several other women who are currently in similar relationships with their in-game masters.)

In both cases, my friends were miserable. They felt dirty and manipulated (well and that's because they WERE being manipulated), and kept IMming me about how terrible they felt. One of my friends actually went through three masters over about a month: one non-Gorean, one former Gorean (who had actually been banished from his sim for abusing the slaves), and one full-on active Gorean. She had the exact same problems with each of them and almost every day we kept having the same conversation:

Her: "I really don't want to be with this guy anymore."
Me: "Return the collar. Defriend him. Mute citizen."
Her: "But he says I've been leading him on."
Me: "Of course he says that, because he knows it makes you feel guilty."
Her: "But I kinda did lead him on."
Me: "You made a decision to go with him. It didn't work out. You're allowed to change your mind."
Her: "He knows my real name, my email address, and my phone number..."
Me: "..."
(repeat)

Things got so bad for both women that they began to have real, physical symptoms. One lost her appetite and couldn't sleep anymore. The other got so ill she started vomiting all the time. Ultimately both of them just packed up and got out of Second Life. (Neither character has logged on since, anyway. God I hope they didn't roll alts and come back...)

This is not at all an indictment of Gor or the D/s lifestyle, but merely an example of how just like in real life, dangerous relationships can and do develop here. It happens in the Gorean zones, and it happens outside them. There clearly are some overbearing, manipulative users here and they do tend to give the rest of their peers a bad name.

Which "Furryland" would you be referring to? *grins* There are several sims that are "classified" as furry owned and operated.

I think I have to take offense to the word "perversion" in this context. Not all furries are "turned on by a theme park costume". In my case, I am AmerIndian Shamanistic by religion, and horse is my totem animal. I aspire to some of the more noble traits of horses, such as the ability to run free, their strength and loyalty, and their ability to support heavy burdens. I find running around in a horse avatar to be fun.

No, I don't own a fur suit in RL. No, I'm not a vegan. No, I'm not a hater of the fur industry. And no, I'm not turned on by theme park costumes. Careful how quickly you stereotype others, reality is far too complex for it.

Oh, and no, my island sims aren't restricted to only furries. They are open to all.

Personally, I think people with heads are the root of all the world's troubles. Every griefer I've ever met has had a head. Every person banned from Second Life has had a head. Some people have tried to hide theirs, but its still there. We all know it.

Ban head-ed people!

Down with heads! Up with necks!

Never had a problem with Furries.

I will say this though. Having some friends who have migrated over to Gorean lifestyles...

Finding out that a friend is or is becoming Gorean is kinda like finding out a friend is converting to be a Jehovah's Witness IRL.

I know that many, many women who get into it struggle to get back out of it. I've never seen the techniques in a game used so effectively to addle the mind of someone IRL. Unfortunately, it's quite common, and I've been helping more than a few former girls (including 2 Panthergirls) who wanted out.

This is long but important, so read it all before you post on how i'm wrong.



I shouldn't use a word like "brainwashing" it sounds far too sci-fi and unbelievable and it tends to get discredited, "thought reform" is usually a better term.

Let me just dissect this a bit, since there is still often the concept that this sort of thing requires big machines, restraints, and all kinds of physical torture. But thought reform is much less complex than that. Getting a song stuck in your head is considered to be a light form of brainwashing due to the fact that you don't have control over your thought process, and it's repetition.

"The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated again and again. " -Adolf Hitler

John Norman's books and the mandatory readings that Slave girls read in Gor all have the moral and theme that women are naturally slaves to men and without that, neither men or women are happy strewn throughout them and repeated over and over and over. Your big lie, and your repitition right there.

I'd also say that thought control only requires such dramatic actions as "implement dietary modification, sleep-schedule disruption, use of physical punishment, and imprisonment over a broadband connection." as Elspeth Withnail said, when the person is actively resisting the mind control and knows that they're trying to be controlled. But what if they just think it's an innocent fantasy world of roleplay and there's no possible way that mind control and thought reform actually exists? Then it doesn't take much.

"But then there are things like cults - there, mind control happens when a cult wins over another person's consciousness through hypnotic-like inducements including 'love bombs', a form of praise, overseeing an inductee's every action, and eventually using shame and the threat of being expelled by the cult as a means of controlling them." -Professor E Mark Stern of Iona Collage in New York

Love bombs, shame, and threat of being expelled. All things Gorean sims use on slave girls, if a slave girl obeys, she is rewarded, if she disobeys she's shamed and punished, if she speaks her mind or questions the philosophy, then she's threatened with expulsion from the sims.

There's also the use of Orwell's Doublethink from 1984, in that book, "Freedom is slavery, war is peace" is a prominent theme of propoganda used by "The Party" and "Big Brother". Doublethink is the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

"Freedom permits a woman to live without a man. Slavery makes a woman need a mans touch... Slavery, of course, is the surest path by means of which a woman can discover her femininity. The paradox of the collar is the freedom which a woman experiences in at last finding herself, and becoming herself." -Page 160 - Magicians of Gor

To summarize, what they state here is "Slavery is freedom" the direct flip of Orwell's quote "Freedom is slavery" and VERY doublethink based. This "slavery is freedom" theme is repeated very often throughout the books, and is written in as persuasive of a matter as possible. Because once you have a person believing honestly that "slavery is freedom" then you have them under thought reform.

Here is Dr. Margaret Singer 7 tactics of "coercive persuasion" most of which can be seen or used within Gor in one form or another



To make an example of these tactics uses We have a hypothetical new slave:

Tactic 1 is sometimes unnecessary since the slave might already have knowledge or be involved with D/s which opens the door to this and they're already "Softened-up", but if not, she is told that if she wants to join, she must study these notecards chock full of gorean slave philosophy. After of which, tactic 2 comes into play, and everytime she acts the way the city or her Master wishes, she is rewarded not just by her master but the entire community, as she does this, she is told not to accept IMs from anyone but those her Master approves of, this means previous friends she had before gor that she must shun by ignoring thus cutting herself off from the world and localizing herself into the Gor sims, creating her new family there. Tactic 3 is that Outsiders of Gor sims are not allowed in frequently as the Gor sims keep a strangle hold on the kind of information from the outside reaches the sims, opposing view points in strangers to the Gor sims gets them banned, if a slave questions or agrees with said viewpoints they are punished or threatened to be kicked out. Tactic 4 is the texts of Gor which frequently state that we on Earth are doing our relationships all wrong, that both Men and Women are unhappy because of this, and if we just did it the Gorean way, everything would be better, this effect is increased by placing the girl in "another world" where everything works different. Tactic 5 is simple, slaves are told often that they're stupid and powerless, and the third person usage in reference to themselves causing them to objectify themselves, making them more ready to be used by others. Tactic 6 and 7 come in when a girl still questions the philosophy and Masters of Gor, at first offenses they're humiliated in numerous ways and stripped of their priveledges to go places or do certain things, slaves are sometimes left in cages with titlers saying what they did wrong, for hours and expected to stay there unless more punishments follow, and they will because they don't want to displease their masters or the community and risk tactic 7, an expulsion from Gor that if indoctronated into the philosophy, has them believing that they'll never be happy without the gorean way.

Thus a slave's training can keep them chained to the sim and the community without physically chaining them to anything. After all, where are you going to go if you get kicked out of gor and shunned all your old friends? If everything you have now, and everything you believe now, is in those sims?

This is why I believe that goreans use thought reform tactics, not because I just don't like them, and not because i'm using buzz words to get people on my side. This is serious and it needs to be thought over. As I said, i'm not looking to ban gor and i'm not looking to persecute goreans, i'm just trying to get opposing facts and viewpoints out there as information for people who don't realize that there's more to Gor than it being a "roleplaying community for fun, so what's the big deal?".

All i'm saying is, get into Gor at your own risk and know all the information.

I know a LOT more than two people who have left SL as the result of bad relationships, being manipulated, feeling an outsider... all kinds of reasons. Two women being abused by an online relationship does not make all of Gor bad.

Gosh I can't believe you folks have me defending Goreans. Most of the time I just mock them because I find rigid systems mockable. But honestly... geesh. Give it a rest. There is no collective ideal to find new women and brainwash them into being slaves. Those that say that there is are making that up.

For every woman that left because of uh.. being manipulated or whatever, I can show you 10 more healthy normal women who are in Gor and happy with the RP. There's a lot to like there. I know women from all castes too -- panther girls, free women, and slaves. I know a lot of slaves who hang out in Gor when they want and when they've had enough they leave the Sim and go do normal stuff for a while. The one or two women you meet who have had it bad does not make Gor evil.

Vivianne, don't let artemis get to you. She does no real research into the books (evidenced by previous claims, one such example is her claim slaves did not use third person in the books. I posted quite a few quotes proving her wrong..and its impossible to miss if you actually read them).

Really, what she says holds no merit..anyone who applies false information and isolated situations to an entire group holds no merit. You must also remember she belongs to a dedicated anti-gor group. Take the words with a bit of salt.

If anyone wants an insiders view of the good and bad of Gor, feel free to contact me. I don't do Gor on SL but I live as close to the lifestyle as possible and own my fiance in the sense she -chooses- to submit.

well thought out posts, Artemis..... we have known each other for quite some time... we have had talks about online Gor a few times as well. As you know I was involved in it for quite a few years and have left it all behind due to the use of the books only when it suited certain individuals. Yet the books were ignored entirely when is didnt suite the individuals purposes. I left due to the complete bastardizing of the basic philosophy of Gor. But, you know that

always a friend,
Toy