What's so bad about Furries & Goreans anyway?

"Her: "He knows my real name, my email address, and my phone number...""

Who is at fault...the person who asks for such private information, or the IDIOT who gives this information out to a stranger on the internet!!!!

I'm waiting for the "maleness is wrong because some men are wifebeaters" thread.

Gor is like any religion: if people want to get into it and bind themselves to the rules of that system, that's their business.

"All things Gorean sims use on slave girls, if a slave girl obeys, she is rewarded, if she disobeys she's shamed and punished, if she speaks her mind or questions the philosophy, then she's threatened with expulsion from the sims."

Sure you're not describing Catholicism?

Above all:

Stop treating adults like children! Protect children from this kind of thing, yes. But adults? Give them your opinions, your advice, but don't be so pig-headed and arrogant as to think you have the right to "save" them from something harmful. They are adults, capable of making informed choices in what they wish to do with their lives, what creed they wish to follow, if any. LET THEM.

I certainly don't want somebody banning chocolate because it's bad for me, and I can't be trusted to make my own mind up on whether or not I want to eat it.

Musuko.

Let me restate again, since I know on a long post like that people seem to totter off and aren't fully thinking about what I wrote.



Now let me restate the last part of my excedingly long post



Now where did I say that I wanted Gor banned or that I was doing anything but giving the opinions and facts I found so adults can discern the information for themselves and decide whether they should really want to get involved in this?

Okay okay okay ... i hafta put in MY two cents worth, which isn't much these days ... I role play "Gorean" on occasion and have a lot of fun when I do role play Gorean ... but I do not live in a Gorean sim. I am a "slave girl" ... but I bring a new brand of fun to that term ... cuz in all realilty, I've not truly been enslaved once by my "Master." He too, role plays with me, and treats me with the utmost of respect. If I didn't have that respect from him, I wouldn't have the freedom I do to role play and it wouldn't be fun to me. For the most part, however, I don't roleplay Gorean - very rarely am I in Gorean dress, and I only roleplay when I feel like it. I do wear my Master's collar tho, 100% of the time.

To those women who have become "ensnared" into the roleplay, its all in what you allow in your gameplay. Remember "Just say no?" Why in tarnation (yes, i know that the word tarnation ages me) are these women giving out their phone numbers, e-mail addresses, etc., to men they don't know from the internet? Any woman who becomes ensnared in the first place more than likely has issues in real life that need to be dealt with aside from the game play ... I do not promote women having "masters" in real life - I just want to go on the record with that, nor am I a part of the D/S community - I just think its fun to roleplay certain things ... To those who take it seriously, I am the first to say, "this is roleplay for me, and I don't take it seriously." If they don't like it, all I can say is, oh well, lol ... I could care less. I treat others with respect - and let them live and believe and do as they will ... but no way, hosea, would i ever bring it into my real life ...

The End
Lelia Wakawaka

Well, I think I can offer up a solution to the "Does Gor suck or not" argument.

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to help set up a Former-Gorean Deprogramming Institute (FGDI) to give those confused and scared people out there a place to go and get help from people who were once Gorean and left the philosophy behind.

Artemis:


I think Artemis, that the problem you have, is not so much that you want to "lay the full facts out".... YOU see it as important that everyone is aware of "what they are getting into". That's fine.
MY problem with your posts, is in the part I highlighted above as an example...namely, that you use these blanket generalisations that are just NOT grounded in fact. "Most" of the time..... etc. Well I'm sorry, but you lay claim to a very different side of Gor to the one I see online. As I've stated many times over these threads, I'm sure that in EVERY area there are predators of varying kinds, but to constantly imply that it's a MAJORITY is NOT simply supplying an alternative view, but laying claim to an incorrect knowledge.

Corvus:



Cool idea Corvus....set it up. I'll happily donate toward the initial running costs.

Actually I don't think I am, refer to the above post(#47) to see what qualifies for this, and this does blanket pretty much every Master/slave relationship in Gor, and sometimes out of it.

Artemis, you don't know me but I think the world of Nexus Prime and own damn near everything you've ever made. Please forgive but I really feel I must refute your post. I'm not Gorean but I know a LOT of people in Gor -- masters, slaves, panther girls and free women. I don't really care for Gor myself, I do find them wholly misogynist, and have been known to mock them relentlessly. Nonetheless, I have visited the Gorean sims, know a bit about them, and feel that you are really misreprenting them.

You make it sound as though there is a collective goal to find new young female residents and make them Gorean slaves through a planned, step-by-step thought control process. Nothing could be further from the truth. It really IS RP. That is not to say that there are not manipulative people that use it for evil, but Gor, in and of itself, is not evil. It might be STUPID (and indeed I think it is) -- but that's a different argument.




Yeah ok people have to read the Gor books. They don't have to read ALL the Gor books -- but y'know, one or two to familiarize oneself with the world. Before one becomes a Jedi one should see a Star Wars movie or two. And yes, the Gor books all contain John Norman's slave fantasies. Thats what they are about. So what? Big deal. I have friends that play a Buffy game. Before one can join the game, you have to have watched Buffy. I have another group of friends that play a game based on the Dune books by Frank Herbert. Before you can join, you have to have read the first three books. This isn't an unusual practice in RP groups.




No sorry not true. What is true is that certain masters use these tactics but it is not a function of the sim or the governance of the sim. Now it is also true that if you agree to be a slave you agree to behave. If you don't behave according to the groundrules that you and your Master have set up, then you have agreed, in advance, to be punished. It is also true that if you agree to go to a Gorean sim you agree to adhere to their rules. If you become disruptive, yeah -- you get your ass banned. Just like anywhere else. If I go to a furry sim and start talking about how furries suck or how furries are sick or how its unnatural to be a furry or questioning why anyone would want to be a furry, they are going to ban my ass, as well they should.




I doubt very seriously that when Norman wrote that he had doublethink in mind. Or if he did, he had it in mind only as applies to the books. These books were not written with real life and online communities that abide by them growing up. They were FANTASIES. That's all. To pick out one paragraph in a 10+ book series and present it as proof of endoctronated doublethink is unfair and manipulative in the extreme.






Again, if you are going to RP in a world unfamiliar to you, it is good to read the historical documents. If you go to a Star Wars RP, they will require you to be familair with the Star Wars world. If you go to a Middle Earth RP, they will require you to be familiar with Tolkein. This is not unusual in the RP world.



No no no. Sorry but this is just wrong. Yes, when a slave does something right she is rewarded. And when you make a great build people tell you how great the build is. And when you make a great script people compliment you on that. And when you make great clothing people compliment you on that. Such is the way of the world.

SOME (not all) masters require control over friends lists and IMs -- certainly not all and this is not restricted to Gor. It certainly isn't a rule and isn't something the sim implements.




This isn't true either. Outsiders are welcome. They are asked to don the garb of the sim and behave by the rules and wear a guest tag. All the information is freely available in well organized and fully stocked libraries. Not only are the books available but documentation as pertains to the specific Sim you are on, ledgers of slave sales, slave freeings (more frequent than you might think), marriages, property transfers, gladitorial contests and every other thing you might think of. There are scribes whose job it is to keep these libraries up to date and they do a good job. This information is freely available to any who may want to peruse it.

As far as speaking out -- if I go to any private sim and start saying how bad and wrong they are, they are going to think I'm a griefer and ban my ass. They should. I would be griefing were I to do that. But I try to respect the rules and regulations of any private holding I enter. This is just normal politeness. If you act otherwise, ANYWHERE (not just Gor), expect to be banned.




Again, FANTASY books. Its not like the Goreans wrote those books. Its not like John Norman decided to create a slave trade on earth. These were fantasies. We aren't talking L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology here.



No, they aren't. Actually, they are told rather frequently that they are beautiful, necessary, and adored. Gee, ya think this might be a function of an RP that would be attractive? I'm just sayin...




No. When a slave disobeyed she is punished. This is something SHE AGREED TO as part of the RP. And yeah, if you don't want to be a part of that RP -- don't frigging agree to it. If I go to a Star Wars sim and wnat to name my Jedi "Gandalf the Grey' and throw magic missle at the darkness and fight balrogs -- they are going to tell me to straighten up and fly right or get the hell out. They may even strip me of some of my powers and they will definitely laugh at me and not let me forget it. On the other hand, if I want to be Gandalf the Grey -- what the hell am I doing in a Star Wars sim? If I want to be a free woman of the 00s, why would I agree to Gorean rules?



Yeah it does need to be thought over but there are many ways of viewing that which is Gor. It pains me to have to defend them because I really feel the entire idea is kind of silly -- but hey -- live and let live. There are plenty here that feel my devotion to having a self-sustaining performance art venue is a silly idea. So obviously no one has the lock on silly ideas. But to accuse the Goreans of wholesale mind control tactics is just inaccurate. That is SO not what is going on.

SL is about dreaming and having fun, the good part of all this, is if you dont like furries, goreans humans or things alike, you can still quit the game and mute them, or teleport to another area.

Add me to your list. Next time I'm in, send me an IM, we'll form a group. I'll need a hand or 20, I have a feeling this may be bigger than expected.

It partially amusing, and partially saddening to see such fuss over what I gather to be of little importance..

I will admit to being a member of the furry community, and not having any experience with the Gorean community. Since seeing the thread that kick-started this, I decided to get at least an idea of what it was, out of my own curiousity, and found that some of what is said of Goreans doesn't match what they say of themselves.

According to the wikipedia (from the section where a Gor talks about the premises of Gor), Gor is focused on a return to a natural order, as dictated by nature (I get a Gaia kind of image in mind). They also mention that they are not a part of the BZDM proper although they are associated with it, and that slavery is not a central focus, despite its prevalence.

In my brief examination of what they say they stand for, I am left with a lot of questions and quite a few reservations, but also left realizing that it is best I not assume anything about Gors until I see it in virtual person.

I would also make this statement concerning furry-dom, that at its heart, it is an exploration of humanity using various animal species as a vehicle. That is to say that furries interact in pretty much the same way normal non-furry humans interact. Perhaps many other furs have differing views than mine on this, since we do tend to be a rather diverse group. (Plus you hafta admit the avatars are cool. )

I would hasten to add it is hasty to judge an entire group by the actions of a few. There are almost always bad apples in any sizeable group, and an otherwise decent individual may treat someone badly because of previous bad experiences. It's not good, but it happens.

You're forgetting that in Norman's fantasy novels, there are also free women. Yes, his hypothetical social strata places Gorean men (as opposed to Earth men, who he sees as weak and feminized) superior to women in general, but you're focusing on the slavery issue while ignoring both the Free Women as well as the Panther women, who live on Gor outside of the rigid social strata of that society. In other words, you're selectively choosing data to support a point and ignoring that which does not. Huh.


Before you're too harsh on Goreans, I suggest you start speaking out against the predatory Dom/mes who love to troll newbie areas and find vulnerable newbs to prey upon -- give them money and clothes, offer to take them under their arms and guide them, then gradually impose their own control on the victim. It's an almost daily occurrence and I've seen it with my own eyes. The difference between them and Gor is that there is a large body of lore available on Gor -- including the Gorean libraries within SL -- which clearly and unequivocally state Gor's aims and methods. The predator Dom/mes are much more untruthful and clever.


How is this different than some Christian groups, political parties and even online communities? I don't know how many Goreans you know personally, but I'd say subjectively that you described less than 5% of Gor. The friends I have who belong to that circle are there by choice, know precisely what they're into and have no desire to be anywhere else.


Orwell is not applicable here, and we can debate THAT empty point all you want. Gor isn't looking to take over SL or impose their philosophy on anyone who doesn't wish to join Gor (including you). And your quote strikes me as very superficial, out of context with the underlying philosophy of D/s -- it's not slavery, it's the "gift of submission" that grants the sub (or slave) a certain kind of emotional freedom. That's not an easy concept for the uninitiated to grasp, but if you don't grasp it, stop condeming it.


Advice you would do well to heed, as well.

Disclaimer: I am not Gorean and I never will be Gorean, but I have Gorean friends, I have been to Gor, I have interviewed Gorean leaders and I have been close to Gor slave girls who went through much the same kind of interpersonal drama as everyone else in SL who rubs up against people. What I am, however, is anti-judgmental. If you're not a part of that culture, maybe it's best not to pass judgment until you're more educated on the subject.

Oh, what the heck.

So, I've rp'd in Gorean sims for about four months and left about a month ago. I return to the sims occassionally to visit friends there and check on my vendors. I still make and sell clothing for role players, so I'm sticking my neck out a little bit in saying this, but so be it.

The main problem, the largest problem, isn't with Gor itself. It's with people who seek to abuse and/or manipulate others.

The problem with Gor is, it gives those people an environment where that behavior isn't kept in check well -- arguably, it is encouraged

Soon after I met my first Master, I told him that if I felt lines were being crossed and I wasn't being respected, I would leave. I had to do just that. Yes, lines got crossed, things were moving out of SL and into RL (not so much for me, but for my "chain sister." Just seeing that happen to her was alarming enough for me). I started seeing red flags, and I got myself out of there.

Can abuse happen in Gor? Oh, heck yeah. It can happen anywhere. What troubles me is that men who emotionally abuse women in this environment aren't called on it. At least, not often enough. Not that I have seen.

Is it many or most men who do this? You know, I really can't tell you. I still have a lot of friends there that I do respect. But I saw the bad stuff enough to become really uncomfortable with it.

An interesting point: We're all talking about how Gor can wear down a woman emotionally. It can do the same to a man. I've known more than a few who have told me that they feel wrong playing the part of a Gorean master, that they don't want to treat women like that.

Now, that said of Gor, I believe that holds true of most any subculture. You get your extremists in the Society for Creative Anachronism who have no power in real life but get to literally live like a king in SCA, so they put all their time, energy, money and emotion into the make believe world rather than the real one. You get some Furs who are so unhappy with who they are and with the people around them that they escape into an animal persona. And so on. Beware of anything taken to extremes, and beware if those extremists reach a critical mass.

Done with a group of people I felt very comfortable with, where I knew I was esteemed as an equal underneath it all, Gorean rp would still be fine with me. I think done in that environment, it could be a fun way to explore "what you're made of." And for many people, that's what it is.

But it was a matter of one too many bad apples, so I had to get out of that barrel.

You don't have to follow a system to educate yourself on it.

And just in case you did, my concept includes former Goreans as being a part of it.


Edit: Giving the abused and manipulated RPers a haven is the first step in policing the abusers.

On a slightly related but off-topic note.. I do not view rigidity of moral structure as being a bad thing, and take offense at those who would malign Christianity because of a combination of it's high calling, and the intolerance and shrillness of some associated with it.

You'll find Christians also tend to have stereotypes made of them that don't necessarily fit, but are based rather on oversimplifications and ignorance of the faith. I say this because I am a Christian before I am a furry.

(There are admittedly a lot of those deemed Christians who fall short of the principles which guide it, and so I am not surprised that many might view all of them negatively based on a few they've seen.)

Sorry to hear about your experiences Lorelei. Sounds like you went through a lot.

Yes, I think the problem for your faith is that most people who claim to be Christian, aren't.

Of course, we Pagans have our own problems with that.

Really, if you think about it, every social grouping gets maligned for some reason or another. Eventually you just don't get offended anymore.

Anyone who is interested in setting up an SL center for abused slaves/people/whatever to help deprogram them and help them out of their situations, please email me at [email]CorvusTech@gmail.com[/email] or contact me ingame.

Nothing to be sorry about. I sure learned a lot about people, which made it all worthwhile But thanks!

Nothing is wrong with Furries or Goreans.

Goreans are fun to um, observe.

I'm hurt. *cries in the corner*

Furry isn't a kink, how ignorant of you.

I think vanillas are funny. But thats just me.

becuase they leave fur and blood all over the damn couch

It's more a lack of shaving.

What? They really were crazy. They were there to troll the innocent welcoming crew. I simply used it to my advantage to sneak around the port and the forst and check out the builds (pretty nice).

I got to ride a bird, too!

In a case of "Good Timeing", this week's The Line article in The Messenger is about how my view of the Gorian has changed over the past month. It should be a very intresting read. This week's issues isn't up yet, but should be soon (unless something odd has happened.)

Norinn Richard
www.meteversemessenger.com