The New "Help Island"

i love this idea!

i also think that there should be more training or standards for mentors. i'm a mentor, but freely admit that there's lots of crap i don't know about. i've always thought it would help to have subsets of mentors. that way if someone is looking for help on a specific topic, they could speak to a mentor who specializes in that topic. that could also save on the group IMs saying "hey, does anyone know anything about scripting".

as for the WA regulars...while the majority seem to be griefers, there are definitely non-mentors there that do help out newbies. they might have a less formal approach, but they do help people. and depending on people's tastes, some new residents might even prefer this type of help.

i don't see why the help island would pose any sort of problem. it doesn't sound like the WA is going anywhere, and it seems that new residents will still be teleported there (how and when might change). the mentors & greeters can get away from the nastiness of the WA by helping newbies on the island. the non-griefers in the WA can still hang out there and help newbies if they choose. it sounds like a great solution to me.

Hardly random, Enabran. I was referring to the post YOU quoted, saying that perhaps those who were against this were worried about their lolly being taken away.

This is a conversation, isn't it? Maybe you should worry about your short term memory.

coco

No, Vivianne. The "man hours" of the mentors and greeters could not be otherwise directed towards writing documentation. Until I see Linden Lab considering farming out documentation writing to mentors and greeters, your argument that a Mentor/Greeter staffed island is a "waste of resources" or "man hours" holds no merit.

As for you having a "differing opinion", I stand by my statement that anyone who has a protest against a "help island" on the way into Second Life has another agenda -- namely that they want to get first crack at the newbies, versus helpstaff who may otherwise divert them past the childish rancor and fart-jokes of the Welcome Area.

You really expect us to believe that your main protest to a greeter/mentor island on the way into SecondLife is that the "hours could be better used writing documentation"? That's really far out, Vivianne. Yeah, Who knows if the two are mutually exclusive. It's a big mystery. Who knows how much documentation could have been written if, say, Linden Lab had never implemented, I dunno... animations? We'll never know if those two are mutually exclusive, either.

I really love a good mystery. Sometimes I put on a deerstalker hat and stick a pipe in my mouth and rub my chin in thought while peering through a spyglass just for the hell of it.

Also note that plenty of the people who contribute to the Wiki and other such 'documentation', they "have jobs" as well. If you feel that helping new arrivals is a waste of "man hours", by all means, direct people to contribute to the Wiki.

Meanwhile, we can just wipe out the entirety of the Orientation Island and replace it with a huge texture that simply reads "RTFM".

I can't wait until the release of 1.7, after which, thanks to the removal of negative rates, the most that the morons in the WA can do to a new arrival is call them a doodie-head. If LL goes through with the help/greeter island, then even the "doodie-head contingency" is removed.

For once in a long time, it looks like the social climate of SL may be in for a change.

Enabran, I believe what Cocoa is implying, is that she'll find a way to harrass folks, whether newbies are fed to the WA or not.

Oh now, that is a good one!

Are you having a particularly bad day, Michi?

coco

Not at all, how's your extremely large postcount doing? Do you find it to be sufficiently compensatory?

Edited to remove comedy. I hadn't realized how tense this thread got

Its something to help new residents, folks. Give it a chance - if it doesn't work out, then we can fire up the pitchfork brigade

Geez, another positive thread spirals into BS....

Can we all hold hands here and admit that the documentation blows? We all were newbies once and we all looked over the tutorials/guides and went, "ok, this is crap, where do I find the real information?" Many Mentors and Greeters are handing out the Live Help notecards as part of our welcome kits, if anyone wants a set, just IM me. Yes, this stuff should be included in the software to start with, but it isn't so we have to work around that. Maybe there is a valid reason for not including all the resident created guides and Live Help notecards in starting inventory, we don't know and probably aren't going to be told. So, we find ways around the problem, which is resident to resident transfer and handing down of mythology/lore/guides/tips/hints etc.. We have to teach each other because LL clearly isn't going to do it and there is no point in arguing about what they should and shouldn't do. All we can do as residents is to identify the problems and try and fix them ourselves.

Can we all also agree that the WA is a pile of steaming excrement and something needs to be done? LL is clearly not going to ban these people despite mulitudes of AR's about broken WA rules, so the only other choice is a controlled location. We almost had one with Cabinhead, but that went into oblivion for various reasons. There has to be some kind of place where new residents can get their questions answered and pointed in the right direction without being confronted with a griefer gyrating to porn clips, waving a dildo and raving about (insert any offensive subject here.)

Can we just give this idea a chance? Can we maybe see if a sane environment will bring all the Greeters/Mentors/Live Help/Instructors back out of the woodwork into which they retreated because they just couldn't stomach the WA anymore? Maybe once the idiots are out of the way, Help Island will be full of those who want to help - and yes, some training for helpers would be a great idea - but first things first.....

Back to the topic, I liked the idea of better documentation. The problem I see with that though - if the Lindens don't do it themselves, it is likely to have things in it that people will disagree with.

For instance, in your own examples, I wouldn't want to include the part about freebies being a way to entice people to buy other stuff - everybody always knows that. (And I do love a freebie!)

Plus people have often used these sort of informational notecards in this game as a way to bash land owners, or people who rent out or lease out or "sell" land to others, and collect "tier" from them, such as Nexus Nash and Adam Zaius of Azure Islands, where I "bought" land some months ago.

These cards sometimes get written in such a way as to imply large landowners are bad people who will scam you. So the writing has to be carefully done; otherwise it reflects prejudices like this.

Contrary to what Michi has implied, I never harrass anybody, anywhere. What a nutty thought. The few times I have been to the Welcome Areas I haven't seen any of the horrid behavior that has been witnessed by others. I have seen a lot of names I recognize hanging out there, to help others, I figure.

I'm opposed to a sanitized welcome area which no one but the mentors can access. Those mentors have businesses in the world, and agendas of their own. Now a person can't help but recommend businesses and places when asked. But at least with a more open environment, the new player meets more people.

With a "special" area where only new players and the hand-picked mentors can go, obviously those mentors have instant access to all new players, and will naturally recommend to them those businesses and players they like. And possibly help them steer clear of those players and businesses the mentor doesn't like.

In addition, there are some mentors I wouldn't wish on a dog. They are incapable of remaining neutral toward other players, and not above ruining the game experience of players they don't like. I don't think it is right that they should have all the new players delivered right into their laps as a built-in part of the game. It isn't fair.

coco

Another voice of clarity. I don't see how it's spiralled into BS, a lot of people concur with exactly what you just said. Those who do not, are the "these people" you speak of who likely should have been banned for "mulitudes of AR's about broken WA rules".

There's no spiral here.

I can't for the life of me understand how so much negativity can be expended about AN ISLAND HELPING NEW RESIDENTS. When it was resident run, that was bad. When it is Linden run, that is bad too. You can't have it both ways. I agree with Michi - being opposed to this certainly smacks of having some other kind of agenda. LL needs to take control of the cess pool that is the welcome area, and anyone standing in the way of that is just part of the problem.

It is absolutely not true that people who aren't crazy about this idea are all griefers who don't want to lose their newbie audience.

It is also not true that people who aren't crazy about this idea are "part of the problem."

coco

Again you with the personal attacks. You can stand by your statement all you want. You are wrong. You don't know me, you don't know anything at all about me, and you are making a baseless accusation because I disagree with your point of view. If you like, send me a notecard in game and I'll friend you and then you can see that I spend no time in welcome areas.

No I was not speaking of the man hours of the greeters and the mentors. Are you purposefully misunderstanding me because really it seems as though you are. I was speaking of the man hours to administer and process the applications of the additional greeters and mentors that such an endeavor will create, as well as the administration of organizing and scheduling the larger workforce, as well as running a completely new type of new player experience that will, undoubtedly, have its own share of problems. This takes time and it takes time from the Linden staff.

I'm not understanding you at all. Did you think that LL could just snap their fingers and this extra sim would appear and that it will take no work or time on the part of Linden to create, manage and administer it? Do you not understand how businesses work?

This is going to take planning, developing and administration on the part of Linden Labs. All of that costs money. Contributing to the newbie experience is pure overhead -- as opposed to, say, going after organizations that will pay handsomely for private sims and/or to put learning areas in and this sort of thing. There's a limit to the amount of money any corporation is willing to spend on overhead.

If I had to make a choice between starting a totally new system that may or may not work in the long run -- or fixing well-known problems with a current system that I was fairly certain would fix many problems -- I'd go with the fix. Its cheaper and consumes less resources.

Sure I'm making a few assumptions here. I'm assuming that Linden Labs has a finite amount of money to spend on this issue. I'm assuming they'd like to spend as little as possible. These seem like fairly safe assumptions though.

Were it me, I'd spend the staff time paying closer attention to the volunteer applications, training current staff (mentors and greeters and the like), closing off the welcome areas to those players who are older than a couple of months and improving the quality of the documentation. I think Margaret's idea of having stations where one could get notecards on any number of subjects is a fine idea.

I'm not saying the island is a bad idea. Its a fine idea. I'm sure the Welcome Areas seemed like great ideas when they were first suggested as well. But it just seems shortsighted to me to put in a new system without looking to see how the old could be fixed.

The topic was "The New 'Help Island'". Not "Better Documentation".




If you haven't seen this, you likely are having trouble with your sound or video card.

Check your settings.



So you're opposed to a help island because mentors may plug their own businesses. Mentors have 'agendas', but the folks looking for prey who have oodles of given negs in the WA are super-duper altruistic helpers. I think 'sanitization' is an EXCELLENT choice of words there Coco, and it's *exactly* what the WA needs, a little sanitization.



Obviously. Naturally. Possibly. What, in the WA, the WA Regulars crew will 'keep those mentors in check' from foisting their mercantile ideologies on unsuspecting newbies?

So far, the arguments against a helpstaff island I've heard are the following:

- The time could be better used writing documentation
- Mentors may plug their businesses.

Neither of these argumetns seem too particularly compelling.



Unlike the WA ingrates who are equally as ascerbic to all incoming players. They're equal-opportunity offenders. At least they don't neg you and then suggest where to buy pants.

Ahhh well. I rather enjoyed greeting folks but wasn't really ever cut out for being a mentor/greeter...

I sense this means I should retire from the SL public scene and lurk in my skybox building all the time, the only other place I went to was the WA... to say hi to the new folks.

I feel like an old relic that's about to be replaced by a machine.

I'd go with being a greeter but my hours are haphazard and I tend to have to vanish at random times without notice, so I can't do that.

Well, looks like you've got this all sewn up. Don't you think that if Linden Lab was to suggest this new experience, they might have thought of these things? Or do you think that *right now*, Robin is reading this thread, mouth agape, shouting, "Omigod, Vivianne's right! We don't have enough people for this! What a goof am I!"




Yup! Time and man hours (!) are put in, to increase retention and conversion to premium. Getting assaulted by imbeciles directly upon arrival, seems to me, to be a bit more likely to cause a new arrival to *leave* than incomplete "documentation". Your mileage may vary. I also believe that a reduction in abuse reports and TOS/CS issues may compensate for the effort expended in putting up one simulator, a task which LL has done successfully over four hundred times to date without a team of 40 mules and a chain gang.



As Coco would say, "that's a good one". It's not pure overhead if it causes them to stay, and go premium, rather than close the app in disgust because some guy shot a dong cannon at them as soon as they rezzed in.




How will documentation fix the unwelcoming nature of the welcome area?



AND HOW!



Awesome! You agree then. Does that mean you're going to stop disparaging the idea now?

So? Seems to me both things go hand-in-hand.

It's true I don't play with my sound on usually. More likely I haven't seen it because I don't spend much time at the welcome areas. I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen. It's GOT to happen, and happen a bunch, or this many people wouldn't keep saying it is happening. I'm saying I haven't seen it.

Yes, I'm saying that mentors have agendas.

Yes, regular people with access to the welcome area keep this in check, unless it occurs entirely in IM.

Ha ha, true.

coco

This makes me wanna sign up for greeterage.... but my hours are so askew and I have to vanish at random times so I don't think it would be best...

Technical manuals don't get rid of assholes.



Wow. First Vivianne ends up saying that the Help Island is a fine idea, and next you admit that there's "a bunch" of grief in the Welcome Area. The tide is turning! This thread needs a theme song!




We also have hairless cats that sit on our laps, big chairs, and a maniacal laugh.



The Mentor Advertising Conspiracy also happens on Coast to Coast with Art Bell. Particularly on the Wildcard Line. The WA Regulars are indeed why I don't advertise in the WA, I'm afraid of a naked guy in a party hat playing the "Captain Jean Luc Picard of the U-S-S Enterprise" sound at me.

I love our system of checks and balances.

Without it, we'd have new arrivals rampantly and unabashedly ... directed to businesses ... and... stuff.

Blanket attack on Mentors. You have no right to speak for me, or others in the mentor group, no less think that you are some "cop" who has the right to monitor anyone.

Precisely why the changes are coming, so we don't have to deal with grievers or those with axes to grind.

That's the point. There IS no system of checks and balances in a closed-off mentor program where some of the players themselves get total initial access to every new player who comes into the game.

You don't have to convince me, Michi, about the horridness of people griefing new players. If you are like some here, who are very good at looking up old posts, you could find those from me stating that there is very little worse than running off new players. In my book, the only crime worse is outing someone's personal information.

I have absolutely NO tolerance for that sort of thing. I've said so in post after post. There is just no excuse for it. I find it disgusting, horrendous, and totally against all of our interests.

So you are carrying coals to Newcastle to think you have to convince me of the rightness of not letting a bunch of cretins run off new players.

HOWEVER.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, and isolating all the new players with a bunch of other "special" players isn't the way to go, imo. Particuarly since, as I've said, some of those "special" players don't consistently behave in a manner that is good for SL.

One obvious and simple solution would be to take a harder line against people using the Welcome Area as a griefing playground. Enforcement, in other words. The neg ratings will be gone soon. There could be a rule against playing sound clips if it bothers people that much. Beyond that, simple enforcement of what the rules supposedly already are against harrassment, M materials in a PG area, and so forth, should be amply sufficient.

Trying to protect new players from regular players is the entirely wrong way to go. The probability of abuse in a closed system like that is HUGE. Or, as Torley would say, YUGE.

Things don't get better by making them secret; they get worse. In this case, you will get a whole new set of problems.

coco

I never said it wasn't a good idea. What I said was the resources could be used better elsewhere. Way to take a statement out of context.

In the Welcome Area right now: we have

== A sound that keeps playing: "The way you move it .. you make my pee-pee .. go da-doing-doing-doing" - This is being emitted by:

== A half naked man (member of the WA Regulars) doing a repeated squatting animation.

== A superdeformed av yelling "FUC ME!"

== As an aside, why do nearly all greifers think that this kind of av is original and shocking? (see attached) Note to would-be griefers. It's been done. Try something new.

Whoops, and Dore just crashed. Guess that's the end of -that- experiment. Yeah, the Welcome Area sure is awesome.

No. I said in that post, people naturally tell others, when asked, where to go in the game. EVERYONE has an agenda.

And by the way, mentors themselves often have axes to grind.

coco

P.S. I have every bit of right to speak out on this as you do, Weedy, though you obviously think otherwise.

Your comments, in fact, illustrate exactly the sort of problem I'm talking about. When people start thinking they are above being monitored by the populace at large, that's when we need to worry. When they start thinking of themselves as a "we" who shouldn't have to "deal with" others who they think have axes to grind (i.e., opinions they don't happen to like), that's when we need to worry.

Now you resort to personal attacks to make your point. Mentors are dealt with by Mentors.

I don't answer to you. I answer to Jeska.